MPAA sues Btefnet!

[Bigus Dickus]

And who gives you the right to decide for everyone else whether the price is fair or not? Some people obviously have no problem with the product or its price.

Do you think the price of a Ferrari is fair? Should you be able to take one just because you think it is too expensive? I want to get my wife some big honking diamond earrings, but think they are too expensive because of the corrupt diamond cartel. So if I go steal a pair of 4ct diamonds, that's ok... right? Especially since they have tons of them and can easily replace whatever I take... its not like I'd be taking a one of a kind object, there would still be many "copies" around, just like movies and music.

What makes this so difficult and essentially unique is that no other industry has had to sell its wares under conditions of massive unpunishable theft. How can the free market work when such a damaging force is present? Who knows what the "fair" price would actually be if the entertainment industry were allowed to operate under the same mostly crime free conditions that other industries enjoy?

And so what if the entertainment industry is corrupt? So are other industries... pass legislation to correct it. Theft is never an acceptable solution.

 

[Frank]

Ok, so it's ok for companies to be corrupt, because they all are, but it isn't ok for people to be corrupt, because they all are? Hm.

But forget about that. Let's see what can be done.




If you want to sell your product while the competing products are essentially free and very easy to come by without leaving your home, it might not be such a good idea to piss off all potentional customers by calling them thieves and threatening to throw them into jail. Especially when they all know you're just making a lot of expensive noise and have no means to back up those threats.

If you cannot compete on price, it might make sense to keep the price low and compete on content. Offer better quality, a thick manual or other companying booklet and probably a nice gadget or t-shirt. And offer repeating customers extra's. And tell them they are great and nice people. And deliver at home, by mail. Next day.

Make people want to have those products, instead of getting them mightily irritated by the demands, threats and ever crappier products you try and force them to buy, "or else!"

Isn't that what marketing and sales is all about? Or am I being stupid?

And if you don't want that, raise taxes, pay the producers through that and leave it all free for download. And remove any urge that was left to produce good products, because they get free money anyway. Like they will get if they can get all their demands enforced. Choose.

 

[PenguinJim]

So if I go steal a pair of 4ct diamonds, that's ok... right? Especially since they have tons of them and can easily replace whatever I take... its not like I'd be taking a one of a kind object, there would still be many "copies" around, just like movies and music.

No... you would be taking a one-of-a-kind object. You having the diamonds and enjoying them would remove the possibility of someone else having them and enjoying them. :| DIFFERENT.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Ok, so it's ok for companies to be corrupt

No, and I never suggested that.

because they all are

Wow, that's quite an assertion you have made there. Typical liberal anti-corporation "corps are evil" mentality. Who cares if they employ millions of people, right?

If you cannot compete on price, it might make sense to keep the price low and compete on content. Offer better quality, a thick manual or other companying booklet and probably a nice gadget or t-shirt. And offer repeating customers extra's. And tell them they are great and nice people. And deliver at home, by mail. Next day.

All for a buck to compete with the absolutely free alternative, right? You, sir, are an idealistic moron. Welcome to the real world.

Or am I being stupid?

Glad we can agree on something.

And if you don't want that, raise taxes, pay the producers through that and leave it all free for download. And remove any urge that was left to produce good products, because they get free money anyway. Like they will get if they can get all their demands enforced. Choose.

What you don't seem to realize is that the scenario you painted is not that unrealistic if theft is left unchecked. If theft cannot be stopped (and you all seem to be kicking and screaming like spoiled children that they are even attempting to do so), then the corporations will either go out of business (would you be happy then? no more movies for you), or find another way to recover revenues. You're bitching about half the price of blank DVD's going to recovered cost from theft... what would you think if all movie and music content was free and blank CD's were $5 each, DVD's $8 each, DVD players and drives $500 (for the cheapest stuff), computer TV capture cards $2000, hard drives $10/GB, etc.

The choice, if you want to keep content makers around at all, is to stop stealing their products, or have the government finally have to step in and place usage taxes (like is done with gas and cigarettes) on everything under the sun associated with the recording or playback of music and movies in order to recover revenues.

I for one like a free market system and would rather not have government intervention if at all possible. But you fecking thieves spoil it for the rest of us.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

So if I go steal a pair of 4ct diamonds, that's ok... right? Especially since they have tons of them and can easily replace whatever I take... its not like I'd be taking a one of a kind object, there would still be many "copies" around, just like movies and music.

No... you would be taking a one-of-a-kind object. You having the diamonds and enjoying them would remove the possibility of someone else having them and enjoying them. :| DIFFERENT.

While my example was vague, my point was stealing directly from the diamond mining cartel, not from some innocent middle man like a retail jeweler. In that case, they have hundreds of thousands of diamonds, many exactly like the ones I stole, that they can still sell to customers who want to purchase one. There are plenty more where the one or two came from. I haven't robbed them of their ability to sell diamonds (even ones just like the ones I took), only their ability to profit from selling me one. And since they never sell all the diamonds they actually mine, and wouldn't have sold one to me at their asking price anyway, I haven't even cost them any money at all... right?

Sound familiar?

 

[PenguinJim]

No... someone has still lost something for you to gain something. :|

 

[digitalwanderer]

And who gives you the right to decide for everyone else whether the price is fair or not?

Azureus and a couple of choice websites. 8)

 

[Frank]

Big Dick, have you any idea how unlimited capitalism would look like? No consumer protection at all? No warranty? No Social Security? No private property for anyone but the very rich? Working 16/7/365 hours? Getting paid in money you can only spend in company shops?

Gee, ain't I the moron for making up such a stupidly laughable example as that! I'm just a stupid commie. I live in the Netherlands, a country that has been much more supercapitalistic than the socialistically minded USA has ever been. And I don't want my children to go back to that, like my great-great-great parents. Thanks, but no. I want the law to protect consumers against things like that. And have time and money to spend.

It is like a company that sells oxygen and claims breathing air should be punished. Because people who do are not buying their oxygen and thus stealing money from their pockets. And claiming that not enough oxygen will be produced if not everyone buys at least a bottle each day.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

responding to penguinjim...

And how exactly is that different from a corporation losing something (profits) for me to gain something (a stolen copy of music/video)? But the point isn't whether you gain something or not, as I have apparently failed at explaining. I could just as easily throw the diamonds into the ocean as an act of protest, and I would still be a thief.

It is a fallacy to not recognize that "things" (being either physical or other) only have value because we associate value with them. A book, a dollar bill, a number in your bank account, an idea in someone's head... all have a value because we ascribe value to them. We regularly exchange one form of thing for another of perceived equal value. We trade money for books, books for money, services for money, money for information, information for services, etc.

When you steal a car you devalue it in whole (to its owner). It doesn't matter if you wreck it, hide it, or profit from selling it... it is all theft when you devalue that thing to its rightful owner. When you steal information, you devalue it to its owner as well. Again, it doesn't matter if you profit from the theft or not, you have still devalued that information. You are a thief.

The fundamental characteristic of theft is that you devalue to its owner something which you do not own, whether in whole or in part. I simply don't understand why people can't relate theft to basic economics, and see that theft is the act of removing value, not the act of removing physical things. That conventional theft of physical things happens to be the same as removing things of value only indicates that conventional theft is only a subset of theft. It is not and should not be the root definition.

As proof of this, consider theft of services. Here is a case of widely accepted theft, yet you do not remove physical things from the possession of another in such a way that they no longer have them. Theft of services is logically very close to theft of information... why do so many refuse to treat them the same?

Personal greed?

 

[epicstruggle]

And who gives you the right to decide for everyone else whether the price is fair or not?

Azureus and a couple of choice websites. 8)

Your a thief digi, your kids should be damn proud of that. :?

Go over to the console forum, and post a message to DeanoC that downloading the game he is working so fruckin hard is ok, because your an ass. I dare anyone who thinks its ok to download other peoples work without paying them to go and do just that. Tell the developers/coders that frequent this board, that you just love to take their hard work for free. Screw them and their families. Does anyone have the balls to do it?

epic

 

[epicstruggle]

Here is the thread where DeanoC talks about his game. Im sure he would be glad to know who amoung you will be pirating his game.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22971

epic

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Big Dick, have you any idea how unlimited capitalism would look like?

Perhaps I was vague and that's why you took my statement too far. I would rather avoid government intervention when at all possible (meaning when it is not entirely appropriate), but even as the good little corporate evil-sheeple conservative that I am I completely understand and accept that the free market system "gets it wrong" in many cases with no outside corrections. Cigarette taxes, public roads, etc. etc. etc.

I could think of a hundred examples where intervention (in the form of laws or taxes) are necessary such that the net marginal benefit to society matches the marginal cost to society, not to the individual.

I agree. I'm sorry you assumed otherwise. But still, would you prefer a system where you paid high prices on all the hardware needed to copy/record/play music and video content and the content itself was free?

If so... hey, that's an honest solution at least. With the typical attitudes of thiefs like digi (and some of your above posts) where it is suggested that it's ok to rip off corporations because the price they ask isn't fair, the content is sub-par, yada-yada blah blah, I didn't think paying highly elevated prices for hardware would fit your "give me everything free" mentality.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

And lest my position be lost in the debate, let me make it clear:

I also believe corporations make too much and artists too little. I also believe alternative distribution methods allowing ample fair use and convinient downloads would ultimately be a more profitable direction for corporations to take. I also believe some of the copy controls being put into place in an attempt to curb theft infringes on what I think should be fair use rights. On a practical level, for one, its just way to easy to go download a few songs for a new excercise mix CD. Seems harmless enough... and I used to do that. It was difficult to make myself stop, no doubt. But ultimately I decided that what was right was right, and what was theft was theft.

 

[Frank]

And who gives you the right to decide for everyone else whether the price is fair or not?

Azureus and a couple of choice websites. 8)

Your a thief digi, your kids should be damn proud of that. :?

Go over to the console forum, and post a message to DeanoC that downloading the game he is working so fruckin hard is ok, because your an ass. I dare anyone who thinks its ok to download other peoples work without paying them to go and do just that. Tell the developers/coders that frequent this board, that you just love to take their hard work for free. Screw them and their families. Does anyone have the balls to do it?

epic

epikkk, If I like it a lot, I'll buy two, like with Arcanum, or Dungeon Siege, or three, like with Diablo I and II. Or about 10, like with Deus Ex. Or lots of others. And I will be happy that I didn't pay anything if I get bored in one hour, like with Doom3 or Far Cry.

Gee, why do I bother?

 

[epicstruggle]

epikkk

WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM? I stand up for the hard working coders, developers, musicians, actors, and all the people who make it possible for us to get music, movies, games, .... AND YOU IMPLY THAT IM A WHITE SUPREMACIST?

Clearly you must be a complete fucking idiot and a thief to boot.

epic

 

[Frank]

epikkk

WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM? I stand up for the hard working coders, developers, musicians, actors, and all the people who make it possible for us to get music, movies, games, .... AND YOU IMPLY THAT IM A WHITE SUPREMACIST?

Clearly you must be a complete fucking idiot and a thief to boot.

epic

Heh. Got you at last.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Gee, why do I bother?

Me thoughts exactly, 'cept...

epikkk

WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM? I stand up for the hard working coders, developers, musicians, actors, and all the people who make it possible for us to get music, movies, games, .... AND YOU IMPLY THAT IM A WHITE SUPREMACIST?

Clearly you must be a complete fucking idiot and a thief to boot.

epic

Heh. Got you at last.

...sometimes it's worth it.

 

[epicstruggle]

I see neither you digi or diguru have the balls to go over to that thread and state that you have no problems pirating deano's game or any other game.

Didnt think so.

epic

 

[digitalwanderer]

I don't do consoles, or requests from you. 8)

 

[silence]

since Doom3 and couple other games i wont buy a single game before i download it and play it for some time. then and ONLY then i will buy it.

i am not going to fall for demos that are handpicked 10 mins of best in the game or payed reviews on internet also... after Doom3 got average og 95% in reviews that was the final drop.

i recentlly downloaded 5 games, tried them and found them to be piece of shit IMO. they have been uninstalled and deleted from my computer immidiatlly. this just gives me more reasons to do this....

second of all, not everybody can afford to go to shop and throw away $50 for some POS he will uninstall after 2 hours cause game has fucked up controls, idiotic gameplay, total consolitis or something like that.....
if they want my money they better make good games.

and only way to know if its a good game is to download it and check for yourself.... if its worth it, i will buy it, if it isnt it will be uninstalled and deleted.

simple.

same goes for movies, i'll download them and if they are worthy i'll take my GF to the theatre and buy 2 tickets, but if they are POS in which was more money thrown into marketing then into making decent movie... you can forget me paying to see it.
reviews?... not trusting any.


you are free to copy-paste this to any developer on these forums.
(btw, i dont do consoles, but if you think it will be fun copy-pasting, go ahead).