Motion resolution on a 4K display

[Silent_Buddha]

But my TV is lcd and it have double image in 30 fps games.

From your explanation, the doubling should only happens on plasma?

Yes, because there are a lot of factors at work.

• As mentioned previously the sample and hold effect of LCD pixels.
• Which is compounded by the fact that pixels transition between colors at different speeds. LCD panels will list a typical Grey to Grey pixel response (how quickly the pixel can respond to a change), however different colors may have longer or shorter transitions to other colors. Often significantly longer. An 8 ms GtG pixel response on a monitor may actually have some colors transition at greater than 20 ms, for example.
• That will lead to all kinds of things such as blurring or doubled/tripled images depending on the colors being transitioned.
• Anti-ghosting techniques attempt to overcome this by telling the pixel to change to a color beyond that which is being requested. This can cause reverse ghosting (double/triple images). Again due to the different speeds at which colors transition.

That's just a very simplified version of what's going on. Monitors that insert a blank screen in between displayed screens mitigate the sample and hold to some extent, but still can't deal well with rapid color transitions. As well some panels are inherently faster at switching colors but have their own trade-offs. TN, for example, can switch colors very rapidly but at the cost of extremely narrow FOV for full color reproduction as well as usually being 6-bit panels (less potential color states for each pixel to be in).

Hence, you'll never have a TV that can present as much motion clarity as a computer monitor. Not only because it's almost unheard of to have a TN based television in Western markets, but also because there's also far more computationally intensive image manipulation built in. PC's can also do those same image manipulations but with the power of an entire PC (or graphics card) versus a relatively simple media scaler chip.

Regards,
SB

 

[DuckThor Evil]

OLED panels have the pixel response time sorted out. Someone just needs to implement a good pixel strobing method to defeat the sample and hold and they should be good to go. I hope they can sort out any burn in problems as well, so that they could be used in every type of scenario. Typically getting everything right in a single display has been too big of an ask.

 

[London Geezer]

Sample & hold is the devil and unfortunately OLED TVs seem to be following that, so far. I wonder how fast they can get the OLEDs to strobe if they wanted to.

 

[orangpelupa]

Not only because it's almost unheard of to have a TN based television in Western markets,

I have TN 1080p TV with matte screen that looks superb! Super low input lag too. But yeah, IL not in the West.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Sample & hold is the devil and unfortunately OLED TVs seem to be following that, so far. I wonder how fast they can get the OLEDs to strobe if they wanted to.

I don't think speed is the problem, but the brightness seems to be even bigger issue with OLED at the moment.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/philips-oled-201602184251.htm

Tack proceeded to compare the motion on both displays with a clip of a moving train. Because of its insanely fast response time, motion on the OLED prototype was cleaner, not to mention sharper with interpolation enabled on both sets. Showing a clear grasp of the reasons behind motion blur, he admitted that 70% is down to sample-and-hold, but explained that it’s currently not possible to implement dark frame insertion or scanning backlight techniques on OLEDs because the luminance loss would be too great given the display technology’s ABL-restricted brightness limitations.

So the wait seems to continue...

 

[London Geezer]

All screens will always have to strike a balance between brightness, black level, motion and colour reproduction.

OLED seems to be doing more of those right at the same time than it was possible with LCD and maybe plasma, so it's not that bad for a technology that has just been released in the consumer market and is relatively new compared to others.

Look how much better LCDs are today compared to the monstrosities of 10 years ago.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Yeah I'm not giving up on OLED and I think it's very nice tech. For me it's just problematic as I want my display to be good at everything and with OLED the problems currently are two-fold. If I have understood it correctly they have to manage how bright the display can get due to burn in and pixel life reasons. So it would need to be brighter for better motion resolution, but being brighter causes severe issues, which probably aren't lessened if you use it as a computer monitor as well as overall multipurpose display.

It just seems like a long way to go... LCD's kinda have the answer to every problem, but at best it's a jack of all trades.

 

[London Geezer]

End of the day, LCD is good at some things and plasma is good at pretty much the opposite things.

Maybe they can get OLED to behave like an LCD when it needs to (monitor, some games) and like plasma when it needs to (movies, some other type of games).

Or maybe I'm just dreaming.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Pretty much any technology that relies on lighting up "pixels" rather than blocking part of the light spectrum (LCD) will have image retention issues. Cathode ray tube (CRT) displays just like Plasma and OLED have image retention issues. CRT was able to mitigate it greatly towards the end to where actual image burn in took a very very long time.

Perhaps if OLED monitors become common place, we'll see the return of Screen Savers. I used to love my screen savers. Especially that one with the guy marooned on an island in the ocean. I can't remember what it was called.

Regards,
SB

 

[function]

I'm currently on the look out for a new monitor, as I need to up my screen area for none-gaming stuffs, so I was thinking about plonking a 4K TV on my desk and using that, but like others here I seem to be running head first into a tangle of compromises.

I still want to game on it, so need low latency, don't like TN, would like whatever HDR standards are coming, and ideally want adaptive sync and 120hz.

In other words, I'm not getting a new monitor soon.

 

[Davros]

have you looked at qhd ultrawide ? (3440 x 1440)

 

[orangpelupa]

Pretty much any technology that relies on lighting up "pixels" rather than blocking part of the light spectrum (LCD) will have image retention issues. Cathode ray tube (CRT) displays just like Plasma and OLED have image retention issues. CRT was able to mitigate it greatly towards the end to where actual image burn in took a very very long time.

Perhaps if OLED monitors become common place, we'll see the return of Screen Savers. I used to love my screen savers. Especially that one with the guy marooned on an island in the ocean. I can't remember what it was called.

Regards,
SB

and the return of windows dream scene (that animated wallpaper thing introduced in Vista)

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'm currently on the look out for a new monitor, as I need to up my screen area for none-gaming stuffs, so I was thinking about plonking a 4K TV on my desk and using that, but like others here I seem to be running head first into a tangle of compromises.

I still want to game on it, so need low latency, don't like TN, would like whatever HDR standards are coming, and ideally want adaptive sync and 120hz.

In other words, I'm not getting a new monitor soon.

Dell has introduced a new 43" 4K monitor that seems to be pretty nice. It's a bit pricey though at ~1350 USD. http://accessories.dell.com/sna/pro...4&sku=210-AHSQ&dgc=SM&cid=11284&lid=472042138 It can also be configured as 4x 1920x1080 monitors in one.

If you are willing to roll the dice and deal with Korean 2nd tier monitors sold through Ebay or Amazon Marketplace you can get something like a Wasabi Mango or Crossover which basically does the same things. My Wasabi Mango 49" UDH490, for example, has 4k, Adaptive Sync, no PWM (can cause flickering in the screen at lower than 100% brightness) the same ability to be configured as 4x 1920x1080 monitors and has an LG AH-IPS panel all for under 1000 USD. The Wasabi Mango 43" UHD430 can be had for ~750-850 USD with the same feature, I believe.

But as I mentioned you have to be willing to deal with Korean sellers shipping out of Korea.

If you want to only deal domestically Philips is a 2nd tier monitor brand that officially sells through some channels in the US and probably Europe as well. I believe their newer monitors might have finally stopped using PWM for lowering the brightness of the monitor.

As for higher than 60hz, that likely won't be coming to 4k displays until HDMI 2.1 and Display Port 1.3 officially get released as it requires more bandwidth than HDMI 2.0 or DP 1.2 can provide. It might be possible if you reduce chroma to 4:2:2 (similar to TV's doing 4K@60hz prior to HDMI 2.0 release), but that results in horrible image quality for a computer monitor.

So yeah, if you are wanting higher than 4K@60hz, you aren't getting a monitor soon.

Regards,
SB

 

[DieH@rd]

Are there any Motion Resolution tests of modern 4K TVs, or is [hopefully] this issue sorted up by modern panels/processing chips? I'm most interested in motion resolution results of X800D and KU8000 models.

 

[Gubbi]

Are there any Motion Resolution tests of modern 4K TVs, or is [hopefully] this issue sorted up by modern panels/processing chips?

Doubtful. Every single demo Bluray running on 4K TVs in show rooms are slow panning of colourful bright scenes. It's that way for a reason.

Pioneer used to have a demo movie with a ninja swinging flaming swords on a pitch black background to highligt the qualities of their Kuro line.

Cheers