More DRM Discussions *spinoff*

[RancidLunchmeat]

It's not that, which is the issues, we are eventually reaching a converging point everything will be digital regardless. This concept of selling and holding physical media will eventually come to and end. regardless of what MS does

I got a kick out of the fact that the 850 Pro I just bought came with an installation disc. Seriously, an installation disc. As if any system I'm spending the money on to put in an 850 Pro is going to include something as archaic as an optical disc drive!

 

[Nesh]

Oh and one more thing. It is not just about MS. The only reason I am currently commenting on MS cause, in the case of console gaming, they are the ones having the most immediate interest and are pushing the most for it.

To the point that I doubt the next XBOX will be a console. I wouldnt be surprised if the next XBOX will be a branded eco-system on PC hardware enclosed in a box, with very specific specs where devs would be developing and optimising PC games with that as the basis. No need for porting games from console to PC and vise versa. XBOX would be any PC starting from those specs onwards. The agreement with developers could be to release all games on Windows Store which will have the XBOX Marketplace fully integrated in it. Now XBOX would be an upgradeable PC that would fully embrace Microsoft's Windows environment and digital store.
This is where I feel MS is heading with Play Anywhere and the investor's incentive is not simply convenience but to have full control over the products sold to the consumer. Apple also does something similar to a large extend through their own app store and I am not very font of it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not that, which is the issues, we are eventually reaching a converging point everything will be digital regardless. This concept of selling and holding physical media will eventually come to and end. regardless of what MS does

Blockbusters turned down buying Netflix because they thought there was no interest in streaming and people would always want disks. Just sayin'....

Regards MS offering Play Anywhere, it's utterly ridiculous to argue against it. It's a competitor leveraging their competitive advantage to try to increase their market share (dominated by Steam on Windows at the moment). They all do it if they can. Valve has tried to leverage its software store dominance to create a console rival in Steam Machines. Amazon offers free music downloads when you buy a physical CD (resulting in my Amazon music collection consisting of music bought as gifts for friends and family). MS are offering a consumer choice. If people choose to go that way, the market will go that way, and well done MS for competing. If the market doesn't, you can't blame them for trying. And for the current consumers, they get far better value in their purchases.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The agreement with developers could be to release all games on Windows Store which will have the XBOX Marketplace fully integrated in it. Now XBOX would be an upgradeable PC that would fully embrace Microsoft's Windows environment and digital store.
This is where I feel MS is heading with Play Anywhere...

Yes, that has its own thread. It's a change in the gaming landscape with pros and cons.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

No. Digital is not necessarilly a bad thing. My position is against any market path where the provider gains aditional control over the product or service that has already been purchased by the consumer. It is just that in the case of this industry, digital fits better that purpose.


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Wait so you're against Microsoft offering consumers an alternative to Steam, and thus increasing the choices that consumers have for purchasing their games on PC? Prior to this the vast majority of AAA titles had to be redeemed through Steam even if purchased physically or through another online retailer. Now, you will also have the option to redeem them through the Microsoft store, additionally when doing so you'll also be able to play the game on a console if you happen to have one.

But you are OK, with Sony controlling any and all game distribution on PlayStation? Which is same as Microsoft on the Xbox.

So as long as it's a console, it's OK for the hardware manufacturer to control all aspects of a product or service. But on PC, it's bad if they offer an alternative to the established players?

I'm struggling to wrap my head around your position.

Regards,
SB

 

[Nesh]

Wait so you're against Microsoft offering consumers an alternative to Steam, and thus increasing the choices that consumers have for purchasing their games on PC? Prior to this the vast majority of AAA titles had to be redeemed through Steam even if purchased physically or through another online retailer. Now, you will also have the option to redeem them through the Microsoft store, additionally when doing so you'll also be able to play the game on a console if you happen to have one.

But you are OK, with Sony controlling any and all game distribution on PlayStation? Which is same as Microsoft on the Xbox.

So as long as it's a console, it's OK for the hardware manufacturer to control all aspects of a product or service. But on PC, it's bad if they offer an alternative to the established players?

I'm struggling to wrap my head around your position.

Regards,
SB

Oh and one more thing. It is not just about MS. The only reason I am currently commenting on MS cause, in the case of console gaming, they are the ones having the most immediate interest and are pushing the most for it.......... Apple also does something similar to a large extend through their own app store and I am not very font of it.

Also your example would have been better if you mentioned PS Now and lack of basic Backwards Compatibility on the PS4 so that the consumer is forced to rent a service. It is a different example with a different strategy but is relevant with the discussion and I disagree with it just as much. Sony also calls this "option"

No. Digital is not necessarilly a bad thing. My position is against any market path where the provider gains aditional control over the product or service that has already been purchased by the consumer. It is just that in the case of this industry, digital fits better that purpose.

Lets say that the incentive is for providers (investors is an even better term) to have more control and personally I am highly positive that the market will most likely and enentually favor them with the appropriate policies, laws and marketing strategies that will make the consumer more receptive regardless how long it will take.

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[mrcorbo]

I am not complaining because the plans are scrapped. I am pointing out that MS is trying to re implement them via a different route. As for being scrapped...good

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I don't see how this is a re-implementation of their original strategy. Incentivizing consumers to not use the traditional physical option is not the same as eliminating the traditional physical option.

No. Digital is not necessarily a bad thing. My position is against any market path where the provider gains aditional control over the product or service that has already been purchased by the consumer. It is just that in the case of this industry, digital fits better that purpose.
Sent from my SM-J320F using Tapatalk

So then if additional consumer protections/rights were added to the system such as:

• Content sellers couldn't revoke access to purchased titles (save in cases where the consumer obtained access through fraud or theft).
• Content sellers were required to guarantee access to purchased content in perpetuity, either by hosting the data and providing authentication access permanently or implementing local authentication or just unlocking the content completely.
• Consumers can transfer rights for digital content to other consumers.

You'd be OK with it all then?

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I don't see how this is a re-implementation of their original strategy. Incentivizing consumers to not use the traditional physical option is not the same as eliminating the traditional physical option.

Eh, I think it is and I see Nesh's point in that regard. I think it's too bad that their original vision was so blasted that the DRM was removed from the hardware and as a result people are completely losing the physical option. I get that having the disc can help with install/download times for people who have data caps or poor connections. But this is the result of that backlash and MS' intention to move to a blended landscape of PC/XB regardless of the vocal minority. Fact is that XBL is where MS makes its money, it wants to make more money selling through its store. People who buy an XB and buy physical discs and don't go online make MS virtually no profit. There's simply no reason to target them as a customer. Play Anywhere is the natural extension of XBL and the success of the XBL business model is the reason that now both Sony and Nintendo have followed suit in regards to online gaming.

Currently we have no leaked images (to my knowledge) of Scorpio. We talked about whether or not it was feasible to remove the optical disc from the XB1 with most arguing (correctly) against its removal at the time. Have the demographics changed enough now that the Scorpio can launch without one? If it does launch without one does that indicate the start of a new generation?

I'm on board with Nesh in that I think the plan is virtual machines running and Xbox App and whether it's a "Scorpio" or a custom built PC, the integration will either be there - or will increase over the lifecycle.

I really enjoy playing Gears4 and Astroneer on my PC. There are graphical differences, there are clear interface and control differences, and the experience is simply different sitting arms length away from my 32 UWHD monitor than it is sitting/laying on the couch 15 feet away from my 60 inch TV in the living room.

But also, sometimes I like lying on the couch and playing with a controller. I love that I now have the freedom to choose how I want to play, what my experience will be like, and I can play with the same friends using the same game saves jumping back and forth.

 

[mrcorbo]

Eh, I think it is and I see Nesh's point in that regard. I think it's too bad that their original vision was so blasted that the DRM was removed from the hardware and as a result people are completely losing the physical option. I get that having the disc can help with install/download times for people who have data caps or poor connections. But this is the result of that backlash and MS' intention to move to a blended landscape of PC/XB regardless of the vocal minority. Fact is that XBL is where MS makes its money, it wants to make more money selling through its store. People who buy an XB and buy physical discs and don't go online make MS virtually no profit. There's simply no reason to target them as a customer. Play Anywhere is the natural extension of XBL and the success of the XBL business model is the reason that now both Sony and Nintendo have followed suit in regards to online gaming.

Currently we have no leaked images (to my knowledge) of Scorpio. We talked about whether or not it was feasible to remove the optical disc from the XB1 with most arguing (correctly) against its removal at the time. Have the demographics changed enough now that the Scorpio can launch without one? If it does launch without one does that indicate the start of a new generation?

I'm on board with Nesh in that I think the plan is virtual machines running and Xbox App and whether it's a "Scorpio" or a custom built PC, the integration will either be there - or will increase over the lifecycle.

I really enjoy playing Gears4 and Astroneer on my PC. There are graphical differences, there are clear interface and control differences, and the experience is simply different sitting arms length away from my 32 UWHD monitor than it is sitting/laying on the couch 15 feet away from my 60 inch TV in the living room.

But also, sometimes I like lying on the couch and playing with a controller. I love that I now have the freedom to choose how I want to play, what my experience will be like, and I can play with the same friends using the same game saves jumping back and forth.

It's not a re-implementation because it doesn't implement anything that isn't currently in place. The things they scrapped from their initial implementation were things like physical/digital rights parity and Family Sharing. This doesn't involve those at all. It changes nothing about their current framework, it's just a program to encourage people to buy into that framework.

 

[mrcorbo]

Currently we have no leaked images (to my knowledge) of Scorpio. We talked about whether or not it was feasible to remove the optical disc from the XB1 with most arguing (correctly) against its removal at the time. Have the demographics changed enough now that the Scorpio can launch without one? If it does launch without one does that indicate the start of a new generation?

Not if they want to fulfill the promise of being able to use all of your existing purchased Xbox One software and peripherals on the Scorpio. It will almost certainly have an UHD BluRay drive.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

It's not a re-implementation because it doesn't implement anything that isn't currently in place. The things they scrapped from their initial implementation were things like physical/digital rights parity and Family Sharing. This doesn't involve those at all. It changes nothing about their current framework, it's just a program to encourage people to buy into that framework.

You don't see the plan being laid out and what the next steps are? I see them, Nesh clearly see's them.

 

[mrcorbo]

You don't see the plan being laid out and what the next steps are? I see them, Nesh clearly see's them.

1. People see what they want to see. Confirmation bias is a thing.
2. No. I don't see how the Play Anywhere program relates to the parts of MS's initial Xbox One strategy that were scrapped. I see it as a continuation of the parts of that strategy that they kept and have been following all along.

 

[Nesh]

It's not a re-implementation because it doesn't implement anything that isn't currently in place. The things they scrapped from their initial implementation were things like physical/digital rights parity and Family Sharing. This doesn't involve those at all. It changes nothing about their current framework, it's just a program to encourage people to buy into that framework.

Currently this is what it is. Can they do it differently? They tried, it failed, so this is how they do it now.
It is an encouragement or lets say a carrot on a stick to reach their future goal as I described here

The idea that the market always adjusts to consumer behavior is false. Companies can and do manipulate the market based on what they strategically decide to make available to the consumer. The consumer that way offers his consent without realizing or caring about the disadvantages or the potential advantages of other options that could have been available (but were deliberately not made available). Its behavioral economics and marketing and it has been extremely successful (i.e you want to increase sales of harmful cigarettes? Advertise it as a revolutionary symbol of feminism and women's strength. It happened).
Companies often add or remove incentives according to their own goals and the consumer reacts to what's artificially available. Having choice and options is in many cases just an illussion

Hence why consumers wanting a physical copy are encouraged (discouraged) to buy (not to buy) digital (physical) if they want to experience play anywhere. Otherwise no cookie for them.
This is not a process where people organically move to digital because they think digital suits them better as it is, but because digital is artificially made more attractive by offering access to two versions which is not offered by buying the physical copy.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Hence why consumers wanting a physical copy are encouraged (discouraged) to buy (not to buy) digital (physical) if they want to experience play anywhere.

Except this isn't the cast all the time either.

Halo Wars 2, published by Microsoft but distributed by THQ, will be play anywhere with a physical disk. However, it uses the Steam method of physical distribution where it has a serial that you register for a digital copy of the console version.

But that shouldn't be surprising either as this is the physical disk for the PC. And PC users (not corporations) are what decided that physical distribution was no longer desired for the vast majority of them.

Regards,
SB

 

[Nesh]

Except this isn't the cast all the time either.

Halo Wars 2, published by Microsoft but distributed by THQ, will be play anywhere with a physical disk. However, it uses the Steam method of physical distribution where it has a serial that you register for a digital copy of the console version.

But that shouldn't be surprising either as this is the physical disk for the PC. And PC users (not corporations) are what decided that physical distribution was no longer desired for the vast majority of them.

Regards,
SB

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/halo-wars-2

 

[mrcorbo]

Hence why consumers wanting a physical copy are encouraged (discouraged) to buy (not to buy) digital (physical) if they want to experience play anywhere. Otherwise no cookie for them.
This is not a process where people organically move to digital because they think digital suits them better as it is, but because digital is artificially made more attractive by offering access to two versions which is not offered by buying the physical copy.

Offering an incentive to consumers to make their preferred choice is not the same as no longer offering a choice. PC users, who would be the ones that would find Play Anywhere appealing, are already disproportionately inclined to accept digital distribution and the accompanying DRM. You inherently have to already be OK with digital distribution and DRM to find this appealing.

 

[mrcorbo]

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/halo-wars-2

https://www.thqnordic.com/article/t...oft-studios-physical-retail-release-halo-wars

Halo Wars 2 Standard Edition
Release: February 21, 2017
You will get:

• Halo Wars 2 for Windows 10 and Xbox One via Xbox Play Anywhere*

Halo Wars 2 Ultimate Edition
Release: February 17, 2017
You will get:

• Halo Wars 2 for Windows 10 and Xbox One via Xbox Play Anywhere four days before the official release*
• Halo Wars Definitive Edition**, an enhanced version of the original Halo Wars that runs natively on Xbox One and Windows 10 PC, featuring improved graphics, additional Achievements and includes all of the DLC created for the classic real-time strategy game.
• This physical version of Halo Wars 2 for Windows 10 requires a one-time, non-transferrable online activation at install with digital token
• The exclusive Season Pass***

 

[MrFox]

This physical version of Halo Wars 2 for Windows 10 requires a one-time, non-transferrable online activation at install with digital token

It's not a physical copy it's just a download accelerator.

 

[mrcorbo]

It's not a physical copy it's just a download accelerator.

Sure. Ironically, THQ *are* implementing MS's original strategy.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This is not a process where people organically move to digital because they think digital suits them better as it is, but because digital is artificially made more attractive by offering access to two versions which is not offered by buying the physical copy.

It's not artificial. There are no production or storage costs with digital, and there's a means to manage who has what copies. How exactly are they supposed to enable Play Anywhere on disc titles? What's the mechanic for me buying an XB1 disc and then getting a copy of the Windows version downloaded? Or more importantly buying a Steam game and then getting an XB1 disc for free to play on console?

We're seeing streaming versions of films provided on discs (UltraViolet) to add value to those discs precisely because people want non-physical versions to watch. A digital code in a game case provides the same thing, but with the overheads that involves. Going all-digital means negligible overheads so it's easy to provide another version of the executable in another format to download.

Or rather, Play Anywhere is a by-product of non-physical distribution, much like cross-buy on PlayStation.