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DSoup

Series Soup
Legend
Subscriber
Ignore him. I’ve tried to show him hard data many times. But he always gets back to his bias, he just hates...

The forum ignore user feature is great. I went through so many iterations believing people were on B3D to discuss and accept new information, only to learn myself the hard way that some people just had unshakeable viewpoints predicated on some weird bias but adding them to ignore is the way forward. This will result in the occasional thread where, because of people on ignore being removed from the discussion, people seem to be arguing with ghosts but it's still better than than alternative. :yes:

As somebody who has PCs, Macs, a Switch, a PlayStation, an Xbox and a bunch of portable retro devices, the absolutely worst are the PCMR folks who have a PC less capable than most consoles who will die on that PCMR hill. It's just utter bonkers. The exchanges I've had with PCMR people who have a PC both of lower capabilities than some of my consoles, but also vastly lower capabilities that my actual PCs, arguing that PCs are the best. :???:
 

PSman1700

Legend
Ignore him. I’ve tried to show him hard data many times. But he always gets back to his bias, he just hates Apple. I consider this as partly a failure on my side, but at some point I decided it was not worth the effort I was doing, so be it.

Theres also hard-data from the other camp, provided not just by me. I do not hate Apple, i have Apple products (mobile devices, not their pc's). Apple hardware has its advantages, so does Intel/AMD etc hardware. None is 'better' than the other.
You are very aggressive whenever it comes to Apple hardware, personal attacks when the discussion is purely between hardware platforms.

The forum ignore user feature is great. I went through so many iterations believing people were on B3D to discuss and accept new information, only to learn myself the hard way that some people just had unshakeable viewpoints predicated on some weird bias but adding them to ignore is the way forward. This will result in the occasional thread where, because of people on ignore being removed from the discussion, people seem to be arguing with ghosts but it's still better than than alternative. :yes:

As somebody who has PCs, Macs, a Switch, a PlayStation, an Xbox and a bunch of portable retro devices, the absolutely worst are the PCMR folks who have a PC less capable than most consoles who will die on that PCMR hill. It's just utter bonkers. The exchanges I've had with PCMR people who have a PC both of lower capabilities than some of my consoles, but also vastly lower capabilities that my actual PCs, arguing that PCs are the best. :???:

I saw your altercation with another forum member ( @mr magoo ), i know how you handle things. Mods removed yours and his posts (moderation done). If PC fans are the worst no idea, ofcourse thats coming from a console fan, so that might be skewed abit. Sony fans can be nice, they can be dicks, same for every other platform fans. I wonder how many <RX6700 owners there are on this forum who you claim to be pc fanboys, any stats on that? Why are they dying?

One more time it's "GLORIOUS" PCMR

Exactly ;) And, even peasants can own very capable PC's, (he claims to have a very powerfull pc aswell). Other way around too, PCMR people can own consoles. And they all can be biased anyway.
 
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eastmen

Legend
Subscriber
Not sure what you are talking about here. As I mentionned in another thread, I’m doing CPU benchmarking as part of my day job in CPU design so I take this very (too much?) seriously, and certainly Andrei, and Ian to some extent, were doing a very good job as far as unbiased cross-ISA CPU benchmarking goes. Now, I am unsure where the site is heading.

I am not exactly sure of the date but it was when the site was first sold

But I don't think I'm wrong

Here is the 6900XT launch
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16303/lauching-today-amds-radeon-rx-6900-xt

3070 launch
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1619...nvidias-geforce-rtx-3070-1440p-gaming-for-499


And here is hte Radeon 9700pro launch
https://www.anandtech.com/show/970

The quality of the site is gone.
 

Wesker

Regular
I am not exactly sure of the date but it was when the site was first sold

But I don't think I'm wrong

Here is the 6900XT launch
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16303/lauching-today-amds-radeon-rx-6900-xt

3070 launch
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1619...nvidias-geforce-rtx-3070-1440p-gaming-for-499


And here is hte Radeon 9700pro launch
https://www.anandtech.com/show/970

The quality of the site is gone.

Yeah, their GPU reviews have been terrible or nonexistent ever since Derek Wilson (IIRC) left.

Their CPU and mobile reviews were being carried by Ian, Andrei F and Brian even after their GPU reviews became a joke.
 

Wesker

Regular
Theres also hard-data from the other camp, provided not just by me. I do not hate Apple, i have Apple products (mobile devices, not their pc's). Apple hardware has its advantages, so does Intel/AMD etc hardware. None is 'better' than the other.
You are very aggressive whenever it comes to Apple hardware, personal attacks when the discussion is purely between hardware platforms.

Mate, that's more than several members, including me, who have taken issue with your tone and attitude on these forums. Maybe that's a sign that you should take a bit of an introspective look into how you conduct yourself on here?
 

PSman1700

Legend
Mate, that's more than several members, including me, who have taken issue with your tone and attitude on these forums. Maybe that's a sign that you should take a bit of an introspective look into how you conduct yourself on here?

I do not have an aggressive stance to forum members. Having a bias for hardware/platforms, but that most have. Where do i exhibit this bad tone and attitide?
 

eastmen

Legend
Subscriber
Yeah, their GPU reviews have been terrible or nonexistent ever since Derek Wilson (IIRC) left.

Their CPU and mobile reviews were being carried by Ian, Andrei F and Brian even after their GPU reviews became a joke.

Yea so the site is a former shell of itself. Its really sad since I used to vist that site every day for what like 15 years or so
 

eastmen

Legend
Subscriber
Mate, that's more than several members, including me, who have taken issue with your tone and attitude on these forums. Maybe that's a sign that you should take a bit of an introspective look into how you conduct yourself on here?

A lot of people don't like my tone either. I am sure in the political forum they hate me since I don't subscribe to bullshit. Isn't the point of a forum to have differing views come together to discuss things with the main point of this forum being technology?
 

Wesker

Regular
A lot of people don't like my tone either. I am sure in the political forum they hate me since I don't subscribe to bullshit. Isn't the point of a forum to have differing views come together to discuss things with the main point of this forum being technology?
In a political debate, sure, I’m certainly happy to let tone fly out the window (within certain reason of course).

But when we’re trying to discuss and be objective about technology, it makes it very difficult when someone has a fixed agenda and acts like a paid mercenary.
 

iroboto

Daft Funk
Legend
Subscriber
A lot of people don't like my tone either. I am sure in the political forum they hate me since I don't subscribe to bullshit. Isn't the point of a forum to have differing views come together to discuss things with the main point of this forum being technology?
There's a subtle but important difference between a forum and a debate. And it really comes down to a forum being a collection of information sharing, discussion of topics, and ideas, all with stringent moderation; a debate being 2 or more opposing views trying to beat each other such that one particular side can be declared a winner.

If you broke the discussions down into classifiable sentences, you'd find debates tend to be full of traps, straw mans, all sorts of looping argument strategies for the sake of winning. These are actual debate strategies since being correct is not the purpose of debate, convincing people you are winner of a discussion is the purpose of debate. In a forum, you'd see a lot more information sharing in attempt to shed light onto a specific topic. There typically are no winners in a forum, it's supposed to be information sharing and conclusion extraction.

Folks unable to separate the difference between a forum and a debate is why we require moderation, forums typically shouldn't get heated, but there's always a cross over point where personal values and opinions/emotions get crossed into a forum and it becomes a debate. As posters it's unavoidable that this will happen. But as posters we should be trying to catch ourselves from doing it so that it doesn't need to proceed into moderation.

Politics typically is never a forum and is always a debate. Debates are like declaring specific wines as good or bad. Forums are describing wine by their body, smell, flavours: bitter, sweet, chocolate etc and price, all the technical aspects that make up the wine. There is generally no tone or passion in discussing the technical aspects. It is either bitter or sweet, it cannot be both and you can't convince someone that something that taste like bark is honey. But a debate can convince you that bitter is more ideal than sweet for a wine (which is what the purpose of debate is)
 
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digitalwanderer

Dangerously Mirthful
Legend
There's a subtle but important difference between a forum and a debate. And it really comes down to a forum being a collection of information sharing, discussion of topics, and ideas, all with stringent moderation; a debate being 2 or more opposing views trying to beat each other such that one particular side can be declared a winner.

If you broke the discussions down into classifiable sentences, you'd find debates tend to be full of traps, straw mans, all sorts of looping argument strategies for the sake of winning. These are actual debate strategies since being correct is not the purpose of debate, convincing people you are winner of a discussion is the purpose of debate. In a forum, you'd see a lot more information sharing in attempt to shed light onto a specific topic. There typically are no winners in a forum, it's supposed to be information sharing and conclusion extraction.

Folks unable to separate the difference between a forum and a debate is why we require moderation, forums typically shouldn't get heated, but there's always a cross over point where personal values and opinions/emotions get crossed into a forum and it becomes a debate. As posters it's unavoidable that this will happen. But as posters we should be trying to catch ourselves from doing it so that it doesn't need to proceed into moderation.

Politics typically is never a forum and is always a debate. Debates are like declaring specific wines as good or bad. Forums are describing wine by their body, smell, flavours: bitter, sweet, chocolate etc and price, all the technical aspects that make up the wine. There is generally no tone or passion in discussing the technical aspects. It is either bitter or sweet, it cannot be both and you can't convince someone that something that taste like bark is honey. But a debate can convince you that bitter is more ideal than sweet for a wine (which is what the purpose of debate is)
That's actually really deep and accurate, thanks for giving me a new perspective. Brilliant post!
 

PSman1700

Legend
In a political debate, sure, I’m certainly happy to let tone fly out the window (within certain reason of course).

But when we’re trying to discuss and be objective about technology, it makes it very difficult when someone has a fixed agenda and acts like a paid mercenary.

I am in general never attacking posters personally, or have a aggressive tone or bad attitude against users. For example i share a graph or video where Apple Sillicon doesn't outperform a 3090 or Intel CPU, or write that M1 Ultra is being outperformed by a 3090 in this and this benchmark or game. That's generally how i post, and back that up with links/graphs or other material (YT reviews and comparisons). I get that some wont like that, but thats how it is man. Its no different then an Apple fan sharing a MaxTech video where Apple Sillicon does perform better than any other's hardware platform.

At one time i called Anand for apple biased, which is still not attacking a user personally. LTT is generally attacked by Apple fans (mostly), but i dont get personally angry for that lol. Same for others who review Apple hardware where m1's weaknesses are shown. Max Tech is one of the, if not the most biased YT'rs out there. I might note that once, but i am not rambling on and on about that. if you share his links, thats ok allright. Just whenever i share links of YT'rs who dont share the same visions.

It's also that Apple made the choice to compare the 3090 to their M1 Ultra, which is abit of a weird choice to begin with. They where going to get ALOT of 3090 vs M1 ultra comparisons by doing that.

What i dont understand is why some, in special Apple fans, are getting so personal. So what if i say or share a link where Apple Sillicon is being put into negative light? You are free to counter that with a max tech video or anand analysis etc, or in your own writings as to why you think the hardware is so much better etc etc. Instead you try to group up with Apple fans and start talking directly to me (or other members, as evident in the Apple topics). Discuss the platforms, hardware/software or companies, external reviewers, but not eachother.
We dont even know eachother personally, its just a forum/username, its kinda useless to start hating eachother when you dont know the persons behind these usernames anyway. Again, i dont care personally at all whenever mfa for example is hammering on Intel and NV products. Instead, i tend to link to a YT video/graph where Intel is being better etc.

And yes discussions can get heated, just that that shouldnt be happening personally. Say, M1 Ultra is decimating an 12900k in certain benchmarks, then i share another benchmark where that is the otherway around. Theres no reason to get personal, group up (sign of weakness), just because i am not on the Apple hypetrain of things. It is great hardware for its purpose. it is not outperforming or replacing Intel, MS, Sony, AMD and even NV hardware and platforms (as per that topic name).
 

Wesker

Regular
I am in general never attacking posters personally, or have a aggressive tone or bad attitude against users. For example i share a graph or video where Apple Sillicon doesn't outperform a 3090 or Intel CPU, or write that M1 Ultra is being outperformed by a 3090 in this and this benchmark or game. That's generally how i post, and back that up with links/graphs or other material (YT reviews and comparisons). I get that some wont like that, but thats how it is man. Its no different then an Apple fan sharing a MaxTech video where Apple Sillicon does perform better than any other's hardware platform.

Yes, I am willing to grant you and acknowledge that you don't attack or insult other users directly or personally. The problem I have with your posts is that they're often out of context and do a bad job of playing devil's advocate. For example, there could be a discussion in an AMD GPU thread talking about scalability of InfinityCache across resolutions on Navi 21, and then you'll pop-in -- benchmarks in hand from some pro-Nvidia channel like OptimumTech -- and say something like: "AMD has terrible Ray Tracing performance. 6900 XT performs like a 3060 Ti sometimes. If only AMD could offer better RT performance and something like DLSS, then they would offer competitive options to the market."

To which, of course, you will be met with hostility and anger. Your defence of "oh I'm just showing benchmarks. I have no bias" just doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid. There are a few reasons for this: i) You play the same trick over and over again; ii) You only target AMD, Apple, and console discussions; iii) You're not posting anything new (in the example above, all the people in the AMD chat know that AMD's RT performance is behind Nvidia's on a per-transistor/-watt basis); and iv) You're not contributing to the technical understanding of either the discussion before or after you posted.

Other times you will post cherry picked benchmarks and let the users infer what you're trying to say -- as is obvious from the various Apple discussions you've posted in. Like, yeah, we get it; M1 Pro/Max/Ultra isn't great in Blender and PC/console game ports. It's a real tragedy to the... 5 people in the world who do nothing but Blender render and game on their Macs. But the vast majority of pros are nothing but extremely happy with the performance increases they're seeing with the new range of Apple Silicon Macs.


At one time i called Anand for apple biased, which is still not attacking a user personally.

Yeah, dude, you can't just call Ian Cutress or Andrei F biased without evidence or proof. That's just a really really bad call.

LTT is generally attacked by Apple fans (mostly), but i dont get personally angry for that lol. Same for others who review Apple hardware where m1's weaknesses are shown.

LTT is attacked by many hardcore enthusiasts because his benchmarks are sloppy, his analyses are overly opinionated, and because he puts ad revenue and clicks (and access to Intel and Nvidia, in particular) above journalistic integrity.

Hell, even r/hardware is starting to get sick of LTT's antics.

Max Tech is one of the, if not the most biased YT'rs out there. I might note that once, but i am not rambling on and on about that. if you share his links, thats ok allright. Just whenever i share links of YT'rs who dont share the same visions.

No one is putting Max Tech on a pedestal, or using them to go against consensus view on anything.

Where people like Max Tech or Jonathan Morrison are handy is cross-Apple comparisons (comparing Intel Macs to Apple Macs). It also helps that they actually have day jobs which require them to work on Apple hardware (MaxTech operates a photography and video business; Jonathon is an audio producer and musician). So they provide some interesting real world insights.

Furthermore, we all acknowledge when we're using biased sources. You, however, cite people like this:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qMpI6XREOQ4
...and pretend that they're objective and have no ill-will towards Apple. :rolleyes:


What i dont understand is why some, in special Apple fans, are getting so personal. So what if i say or share a link where Apple Sillicon is being put into negative light?

The problem, as I discussed above, is that you only share links to show Apple Silicon in a negative light. For example:
Power draw maxed, all media encoders running. Intel system is faster in Adobe aswell. Seems that dual chips being seen as one isnt all that smooth.
In cinebench the 12900k remains much faster in both single and multicore performance.
Its suprising to me that in Blender, just using the CPU, the ADL was faster than the m1 Ultra.

You took one particular benchmark, ignore the huge difference in power/heat/noise, and then apply the results generally. That's not how benchmarks or science works, my dude. You're like that guy who finds a niche area study and then denounces all of climate change, or a subsample of vaccine patients to write off the efficacy of the Covid 19 vaccines. It's just poor form.
 

PSman1700

Legend
I dont want to quote your whole post but, alot of this has to do with the fact that most of this Apple discussions/problems are taking place in the topic named 'Apple is an existential threat to the PC', this kinda makes posts/benchmarks there as a 'pitting against other hardware manufactures' quite real. It puts things in a different light i think when going in and posting there.

I have said it before, this Apple Sillicon is replacing Apple's Intel hardware (mac pc's). I wouldnt say that Apple's hardware is better, neither the other way around. They are doing different things for the most.
Also we dont have to cherry pick benchmarks to find either is faster than the other, theres many benchmarks where Intel/amd or nv hardware is faster, and vice versa. it is all down to what you want to see. You like Apple hardware, i like conventional gaming/x86 hardware.

The video where that youtuber makes fun of the 13 pro max is very clearly a joke.

here are a few reasons for this: i) You play the same trick over and over again; ii) You only target AMD, Apple, and console discussions; iii) You're not posting anything new (in the example above, all the people in the AMD chat know that AMD's RT performance is behind Nvidia's on a per-transistor/-watt basis); and iv) You're not contributing to the technical understanding of either the discussion before or after you posted.

Other times you will post cherry picked benchmarks and let the users infer what you're trying to say -- as is obvious from the various Apple discussions you've posted in. Like, yeah, we get it; M1 Pro/Max/Ultra isn't great in Blender and PC/console game ports. It's a real tragedy to the... 5 people in the world who do nothing but Blender render and game on their Macs. But the vast majority of pros are nothing but extremely happy with the performance increases they're seeing with the new range of Apple Silicon Macs.

One thing i dont get is as to why i would have anything against AMD. One thing i am sure of this that posting with content (either links or own thoughts) that favor anything but Apple is being received with ALOT of resistance. To the point where you take your time to delve into different discussions that normally dont even intrest you but for the sake of Apple discussions, its worth it? You as a die-hard Apple fan would have zero to no intrest in gaming, consoles or AMD discussions right?

Anyway, without laying too much time on this topic, one way to cool things down would be perhaps to avoid the versus discussions in the Apple topics abit more (Apple sillicon vs AMD ryzen, m1 vs 3090 etc etc). I think its the versus postings that make for most noise. It wont matter anyway, these two platforms are aiming totally different markets in general. Becuase remember, it isnt just me who was/is posting about this whole M1 vs 3090 ordeal, and with this new SoC just launched, we have many months, probably even years ahead of youtube and tech analysis reviews left where either of platforms will outperform the other. I dont think either side wants to have that all going.
Intel mac vs Apple sillicon mac should be there though, i think.

Oh and, the console (Playstation) trouble i left awhile ago.
 
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Laurent06

Veteran
A lot of people don't like my tone either. I am sure in the political forum they hate me since I don't subscribe to bullshit. Isn't the point of a forum to have differing views come together to discuss things with the main point of this forum being technology?
We certainly don't share the same point of view on many political subjects but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what you say, and I don't think I ever wanted to ignore you (even though you sometimes drive me mad :mrgreen:).
 
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