Microsoft Xbox Roadmap (2013) (VGleaks)

[AzBat]

That hints at a lack of a HDD because a fully functional 360 would only require the internet for downloading games but should be fully functional without a internet connection otherwise.

A DD only 360 probably wouldn't be a problem but one dependent on Durango for 360 gameplay would be.

Hints at lacking a HDD? First it doesn't say it depends on Durango. It's a stand alone unit that is to be designed to work with Durango. Second, a DD only 360 should require a hard drive or enough flash storage to play GoD games. You can't do that with 4gb of flash. They're going to want to encourage purchasing digital content. At the minimum they would need 16gb of flash.

Tommy McClain

 

[(((interference)))]

well today's VG leaks article has been updated once or twice today with more specific info and the line "Durango will play offline games and not block used /system" was allowed to remain and you would think their source would have corrected that if it were not true

Well, we have Kotaku, Edge, a few industry execs, bgassassin etc disagreeing with Vgleaks who have some new, not very reliable sources (now SuperDAE is gone):

VGLeaks apart from specs stories (from superdae) is not very reliable. They posted fake info on next-gen only Assassins Creed and Sony developing FF seems very fishy

This add-on talk is straight from forum speculations and dosent look feasible

Plus there's no plausible way of explaining Adam Orth's tweets if the 720 was an 'always online' console in the same sense as the PS4 is.

 

[AzBat]

I still don't think Adam's "Always Online" tweets were what everybody thought they meant. And your sources could have been right too, but only because that was a requirement made to the devs. It might not have necessarily been a requirement for end-users.

Tommy McClain

 

[(((interference)))]

Definitely not, Orth saying 'my electricity goes down, i'm not going to buy a fridge etc' obviously was a counter to criticism of a console that only worked when online - it would make zero sense to say that if it worked just like PS4 or Wii U ie. better when always connected.

And it's not a requirement made to the devs, Kotaku's report of the three minute timeout is info that could only have come from someone on the Xbox team, devs were informed generally that there would be a timeout before game functions stopped working on the console and the troubleshooter started, but they were never given a specific time for this.

Plus, go read bkilian's recent posts and see whether what he says supports vgleaks or Edge/Kotaku's POV.

 

[AzBat]

So basically you think your source is right & this new rumor is wrong? How certain are you? 10%, 50%, 90%, 100% ? What's the probability that it has changed since your source or even from what Orth knew? Guess we'll have to wait until it's launched to find out for sure.

Tommy McClain

 

[astrograd]

No, I know for a fact that the 'always online' thing means that games are unable to be played offline - the only features that work offline being the network troubleshooter (which Kotaku report) and Bluray playback (as mandated by the Bluray spec).

What if the mention of playing games "locally" offline is referring to 360 games being played with the Durango/361 combo? I don't think it is quite as clear cut as everyone presumes. I also wonder if the used game note corresponds to the BC element as well. That would make a lot more sense given the existing leaks/rumors imho. Especially since that ENTIRE paragraph referencing the offline and used game stuff is talking about the combination of Durango/361 for BC.

So BC games are playable as normal on 360 (no used games fee, online not required)...Durango games DO require a connection and will likely need a fee to unlock them if used already. That's my guess.

 

[Rangers]

Nobody talking about this I notice

Microsoft’s delay in announcing these products from April goes more inline with not having a physical set of devices to show (among specification updates),

#keepoverclockhopealive

Also, this:

A different department within Xbox handles Kinect hardware and software. The focus was more on developing and networking both consoles with Kinect more of an after thought at that point, considering dealing with it would be less of an issue even with hardware changes to the main console hardware. Kinect isn’t the primary focus.

Sounds like they are de-emphasizing Kinect. I am not sure whether I believe that, if Kinect is required in every box. OTOH I think Kinect/software sales seem lukewarm, and I have been wondering how long MS can keep pretending it is their centerpiece if that's the case. But it would be a sea change at least in theory.

But as interference notes, I'm not going whole hog on this due to source questionability.

Also, I think saying "Vgleaks source was such and such", like it's fact, as people do, is premature. Hell I hate to mention it in case of getting him in trouble, but I always figured VGleaks source was probably lherre. Considering the website seems Spanish in origin to begin with.

 

[(((interference)))]

I am 100% certain that MS's original plans for the console had it only able to play games when online, with the only things working offline being the network troubleshooter and Bluray playback.

This is the meaning of the 'always connected' description that has been present in the leaked roadmap and even in the Dec 11 pastebin (which first mentioned the 1.2TF GPU) and also present in the XDK description as vgleaks posted.

Now, this is a software limitation and can be changed, however if they have changed it, it would be recently - say the last month or two.

Given Kotaku has a few sources, including one on the team itself (as they have details like the 3 minute timeout not given to devs) saying that as of two weeks ago the requirement was current, I am inclined to believe they haven't changed plans as yet (which I think is unlikely anyway, given it is a core pillar of the system's design, as its presence in the roadmap, the XDK and the pastebin suggest)

Plus, what else would bkilian be referring to in this post?:

I have no idea. I guess they would have to be prepared for something like this if they knew beforehand that their spec would be lower than PS4. (Actually, I know exactly what the management response was when questioned about relative console power - and other non-leaked things that may have significant impact on the sales of consoles, but it's not my place to say. Let's just say that I got flashbacks to my days in a different, less successful, org in some meetings.)

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1702364&postcount=1299

This was before the first reports of the always online requirement.

 

[liolio]

Well, we have Kotaku, Edge, a few industry execs, bgassassin etc disagreeing with Vgleaks who have some new, not very reliable sources (now SuperDAE is gone):

I guess at this point I will wait till MSFT unveils the product(s), I mean it get too noisy, I missed the part Tap In pointed to in the last Vg Leaks article, etc.
Too much noise, now it smells FUD.

Another thing a bit odd is that MSFT would require online to play on the 361 because it is digital download only but not have the same requirement for durango where you are supposed to be able to play without physical media either. Not consistent either if true I would think MSFT made a 180 pretty late.

Plus there's no plausible way of explaining Adam Orth's tweets if the 720 was an 'always online' console in the same sense as the PS4 is.

Well I wonder why a guy in his position would post what he did. May be he was on the way out already (he is now). Could have been one of the guys that said those policies were OK, that told the higher ops it's going to be easily accepted with some reasonable amount of noise. Ultimately quiet some noise already before any official statement, (everything surrounding Durango is wrapped in negativity at this point) may have reached the higher OPs and trigger some policies change with a pretty clear side effect (to be fired one at a time...) on those that could have pushed those policies to the higher OPs saying it should be ok. <= hum that sounds like plot theory and it is indeed plain bs / radioactive speculation

 

[Rangers]

I am 100% certain that MS's original plans for the console had it only able to play games when online, with the only things working offline being the network troubleshooter and Bluray playback.

This is the meaning of the 'always connected' description that has been present in the leaked roadmap and even in the Dec 11 pastebin which first mentioned the 1.2TF GPU (and also present in the XDK description as vgleaks posted).

Now, this is a software limitation and can be changed, however if they have changed it, it would be recently - say the last month or two.

Given Kotaku has a few sources, including one on the team itself (as they have details like the 3 minute timeout not given to devs) saying that as of two weeks ago the requirement was current, I am inclined to believe they haven't changed plans as yet (which I think is unlikely given it is a core pillar of the system's design, as it's presence in the roadmap, the XDK and the pastebin suggest)

weirdly, i'd almost rather it be almost online at this point.

it just seems like some cool stuff could be done given that requirement, though i cant actually think of any. something new. plus the massive backlash and hand wringing is kind of fun.

it seems like one of those things like a hdd, that needs to be always present in order for devs to truly use it. present 90% of the time might as well be 0%.

Plus there's no plausible way of explaining Adam Orth's tweets if the 720 was an 'always online' console in the same sense as the PS4 is.

I disagree somewhat. He never mentioned (obviously) 720. His argument was wholly hypothetical.

Now in reality, the whole thing certainly suggests an always online 720, but it can be plausibly rejected, at least.

And besides, if the new Vgleaks thing is true, it could be only the 361 that is always online, and thus a 720+361 combo as well. Giving yet another plausible angle to Orth's tweets.

 

[(((interference)))]

I don't know about their claims of Xbox 361 not having a disc drive, personally I think not having a disc drive sets you up for PSP Go like sales given how many 360 discs are out there.

Xbox TV/Yuma doesn't have a disc drive so I'd be surprised if the 360 revision doesn't too.

Vgleaks seems like they're conflating the two as any 361 is not going to be able to work like Xbox TV as Win 8 doesn't compile for PPC so how will it run the Durango OS and Win8 apps like Durango and Xbox TV would.

 

[(((interference)))]

I disagree somewhat. He never mentioned (obviously) 720. His argument was wholly hypothetical.

Now in reality, the whole thing certainly suggests an always online 720, but it can be plausibly rejected, at least.

And besides, if the new Vgleaks thing is true, it could be only the 361 that is always online, and thus a 720+361 combo as well. Giving yet another plausible angle to Orth's tweets.

You seriously think Orth is the kind to get so worked up over a purely hypothetical scenario?
To the point of losing his job?
Why would you bother having a purely hypothetical argument with the internet, constantly tweeting the #dealwithit hash, if their console didn't actually require to be online to work.

You'd much rather drop hints that the rumours were false, unless you were a complete asshat.

The simple truth is, Orth got frustrated with all the voluminous bile being spewed on the net on their console being the always online Antichrist and couldn't hold his tongue any longer - to his misfortune - and thereby inadvertently confirming information from reputable sources like Edge, Kotaku, bgassassin etc.

 

[dobwal]

Hints at lacking a HDD? First it doesn't say it depends on Durango. It's a stand alone unit that is to be designed to work with Durango. Second, a DD only 360 should require a hard drive or enough flash storage to play GoD games. You can't do that with 4gb of flash. They're going to want to encourage purchasing digital content. At the minimum they would need 16gb of flash.

Tommy McClain

When I wrote the comment I had no access to vgleaks.

I was referring to the part where it mentions "always on" is required for any real functionality like the apple tv. An apple tv needs to be always on because only it has is 256-512 MB of RAM in it. The ideal that MS would force a DD only 360 consoles to be connected for basic functionality simply because it lacks a disc drive seemed illogical.

Depending on the 360 flash and Durango's HDD for local storage seemed more reasonable than artificially gimping a dd only 360.

 

[astrograd]

You seriously think Orth is the kind to get so worked up over a purely hypothetical scenario?
To the point of losing his job?
Why would you bother having a purely hypothetical argument with the internet, constantly tweeting the #dealwithit hash, if their console didn't actually require to be online to work.

You'd much rather drop hints that the rumours were false, unless you were a complete asshat.

The simple truth is, Orth got frustrated with all the voluminous bile being spewed on the net on their console being the always online Antichrist and couldn't hold his tongue any longer - to his misfortune - and thereby inadvertently confirming information from reputable sources like Edge, Kotaku, bgassassin etc.

You are wasting your effort pondering these points. Read my last post. I personally don't take anything you and your supposed "source" have to say as automatically reliable (no offense, but without any track record it's worthless even bringing such a source up)...HOWEVER, I think you may find that the author of the VGLeaks info used sloppy language and that the existing rumors are correct. No used games (without a fee at least) for Durango. No offline play for Durango games.

Reading that paragraph again with a fresh grasp of the actual context established in that paragraph makes all of it fit in nice and tight with the stuff we have heard thus far. I think ppl are confused and will be lead astray thinking the rumors they all flew off the handle about are null. They aren't.

 

[dobwal]

I don't know about their claims of Xbox 361 not having a disc drive, personally I think not having a disc drive sets you up for PSP Go like sales given how many 360 discs are out there.

Xbox TV/Yuma doesn't have a disc drive so I'd be surprised if the 360 revision doesn't too.

Vgleaks seems like they're conflating the two as any 361 is not going to be able to work like Xbox TV as Win 8 doesn't compile for PPC so how will it run the Durango OS and Win8 apps like Durango and Xbox TV would.

Supposedly, drive functionality is provided by Durango as 361 and Durango share some type of new interface that's not part of the current 360.

Where in the leak does it say the 361 will run Durango's OS and play win8 apps. I've seen to have missed that part.

 

[AzBat]

When I wrote the comment I had no access to vgleaks.

I was referring to the part where it mentions "always on" is required for any real functionality like the apple tv. An apple tv needs to be always on because only it has is 256-512 MB of RAM in it. The ideal that MS would force a DD only 360 consoles to be connected for basic functionality simply because it lacks a disc drive seemed illogical.

Depending on the 360 flash and Durango's HDD for local storage seemed more reasonable than artificially gimping a dd only 360.

The Apple TV needs to be "Always On" because it's getting its TV content from the Internet instead of a DVD & not because of deficiency in its RAM or local storage. The same would go for a DVD-less 360. If you don't include a DVD drive, then how do you get your games? Can't buy them on USB. Now if the combo of Xbox Mini + Durango allows you to use 360 disks, then that would be cool.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

Where in the leak does it say the 361 will run Durango's OS and play win8 apps. I've seen to have missed that part.

His source says the Xbox TV has that functionality & since the new rumors state that the Xbox Mini is now fulfilling that role as the Apple TV competitor he thinks that the Xbox Mini has that same functionality. A stretch to be honest. Just because the Xbox TV is delayed(according to rumors) doesn't automatically mean that Xbox Mini will support all its features this year. I do agree that 360 dashboard will be updated across all SKUs this fall, but if the latest rumors are true then the Xbox Mini will have new functionality not available on older SKUs. According to the rumor it's only with regards to backward compatibility. I don't think they will support Win8 Metro apps on the Xbox Mini. I think that's only for Durango & Yuma.

Tommy McClain

 

[Jwm]

If they connect to form one unit, having the mini attach into an indent on the underside of durango could work well outside of vertical orientation. If done right the mini might only be half exposed, and the cohesive unit would be aesthetically sound.

Vertical orientation I personally cannot dream of something that looks good, unless the mini slots into the rear. I expect it to be bigger making that impractical.

I do think MS still cares about the overall look, regardless I am curious.

 

[RudeCurve]

Something like this would be cool.

 

[AzBat]

Something like this would be cool.

Nice examples. I had looked for something similar. Now apply a Surface design/motif & you have the Xbox 720 & Xbox Mini.

Tommy McClain