Microsoft HoloLens [Virtual Reality, Augmented Reality, Holograms]

[BadTB25]

I know but then why is it better than a monitor? I think for HoloLens to succeed it's got to be a far better option than existing experiences. There is no denying the technology is impressive but Microsoft need to find practical applications that are better than what we're doing now. Just doing it different sprinkled with some niche cool will be a hard sell.

My point is that it is versatile. You could play it the traditional way you like, but I know for some, the hololens interaction is going to be great and not just for Minecraft.

Recently I was in Hawaii with family and we visited the Lego store at the mall (when did Lego become so expensive). I could see something like Hololens being applied to building Legos. Even better, now you can get them animate and maybe even interact with in your environment.

How about things like flying RC Quad-copters? Wouldn't be possible to create a Holo-quadcopter to learn how to fly without the risk of crashing and breaking your expensive toy on its first flight. Even better, your not limited to the 10-15 minute flight time. With this tech, you could even fly it in your home environment, although it can't take into account drafts from the A/C.

Edit: My point is that the tech is still new. Give it time to incubate. If they can fix the FOV, reduce/eliminate having to adjust the headset and get this thing smaller and cheap ($200-$500), I think it'll have a large impact in many things.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

My point is that it is versatile. You could play it the traditional way you like, but I know for some, the hololens interaction is going to be great and not just for Minecraft.

You say versatile but for playing Minecraft you are very likely going to have to fallback to a poor experience of a projected monitor on the wall. The effective resolution will likely be much lower than your average monitor, the colours muted and you'll still a controller or keyboard and mouse but now you're wearing this ridiculous headgear. This does not sound a great experience for playing Minecraft. Ia lot of people derive pleasure from spectating others play Minecraft, they may be onto a winner if they can manage the problems I mentioned above (monitoring multiple people are varying distances, behind scenarios, inside buildings, underground).

This is the same conversation that was had when HoloLens was first shown. Impressive tech, but the real world applications where HoloLens is genuinely better than conventional technology, need to be identified then solutions made real.

Recently I was in Hawaii with family and we visited the Lego store at the mall (when did Lego become so expensive). I could see something like Hololens being applied to building Legos. Even better, now you can get them animate and maybe even interact with in your environment.

Sure, and when they show a person interacting with 3D Lego bricks in realtime with the kind of precision required to assemble and disassemble the bricks, I'll be hugely impressed.

 

[dobwal]

I know but then why is it better than a monitor? I think for HoloLens to succeed it's got to be a far better option than existing experiences. There is no denying the technology is impressive but Microsoft need to find practical applications that are better than what we're doing now. Just doing it different sprinkled with some niche cool will be a hard sell.

Yes, I watched the demonstration but I've played thousands of hours of Minecraft and what they showed isn't how the majority play Minecraft - evidenced by the type, quantity and popularity of mods and ridiculous number of Minecraft videos on YouTube.

Have you played Minecraft much?

Enough to see its possible to play like regular bare bones minecraft. There was nothing shown that shows they ripped out the standard way of playing. Like I said before, Minecraft is available on a bevy of devices where smartphones, tabs and consoles don't offer the full blown experience that the PC offers yet Minecraft sells well across all devices.

All hololens has done is basically added additional views of which MS thinks adds to overall experience. Whether it offers a fully feature PC like experience or a barebones smartphone like experience is dependent on MS.

Regardless, you might worry that the hololens doesn't offer the experience you are used, but then its practically no different than the other platforms that already don't offer you that experience.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Enough to see its possible to play like regular bare bones minecraft.

I am talking about regular Minecraft. If you have played Minecraft then you will know that a third person view of an avatar who is trying to navigate and manipulate the world using Minecraft's mechanics is not only difficult, it's downright bad. It's for this reason that the default view in Minecraft is first person. Imagine trying to play a first person shooter or combat game where you viewed you avatar from third person position but everything was relative to the avatar not the camera. That's the problem.

You need to watch the HoloLens demo in Microsoft's E3 press conference again. There are two people on stage; Lydia and Zak. Lydia (using a tablet, not HoloLens) is playing Minecraft. Zak (using HoloLens) is mostly observing the Lydia play Minecraft.

 

[dobwal]

I am talking about regular Minecraft. If you have played Minecraft then you will know that a third person view of an avatar who is trying to navigate and manipulate the world using Minecraft's mechanics is not only difficult, it's downright bad. It's for this reason that the default view in Minecraft is first person. Imagine trying to play a first person shooter or combat game where you viewed you avatar from third person position but everything was relative to the avatar not the camera. That's the problem.

You need to watch the HoloLens demo in Microsoft's E3 press conference again. There are two people on stage; Lydia and Zak. Lydia (using a tablet, not HoloLens) is playing Minecraft. Zak (using HoloLens) is mostly observing the Lydia play Minecraft.

And again you aren't forced to play it in third person view.

Its a virtual screen. Its not like they can't produce a solution where two views are available at all times. One in first person and another in third person where the view you get is dependent on where you look with the first person view on the wall and third person on a table. Its not like Minecraft is a tour de force in visual prowess. Also, it is not impossible for MS to create a build mechanic that makes third person manipulation in Minecraft a more viable alternative.

Ultimately its a short demo that shows off how hololens does something with Minecraft in a way that current platforms don't offer. The demo is centered around this view but it doesn't mean MS will throw away how every one normally plays Minecraft in order to force third person on you all when using Hololens.

 

[eastmen]

Your awkward segue into Morpheus makes me realize how this thread has absolutely fuck all to do with consoles.

Your use cases can work with any of the dozen competitors, they are not really AR, they need a camera and a screen, either HMD or a smartphone. Watch the google glass video from 2-3 years ago. It's a tiny clip on, not a big helmet. It can do everything you just said and it's a very very primitive AR. The other AR are much more evolved, and can do what MS is showing off.

There's no camera facing the user. How do you use skype on this?

Why would a 6/7/8 grader work on dead tree material (math or paper on ceasar or otherwise) if he's got a tablet that can auto-correct, offer suggestion, and display tutorials?

My question is, (and I have my own answers, please do not assume to know what I think) What use case makes this big helmet, or it's competitors in this space, a better solution than this? :

I've used a google glass , its horrid. its off center of one eye and you have to focus on looking at it.

Skype is also voice chat

Your the one who brought up dead tree material. I was thinking interfacing over a pc. But since you bring it up , my gf's students do a lot of work during class with paper and pen.

I've already pointed out google glass's major flaw.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

And again you aren't forced to play it in third person view.

I know, so comments above about the virtual projected monitor.

Its a virtual screen. Its not like they can't produce a solution where two views are available at all times. One in first person and another in third person where the view you get is dependent on where you look with the first person view on the wall and third person on a table.

I think the limited holo FOV would make trying to render a top down (or other third person spectator) view on a table simultaneously as virtual projected monitor on the wall a highly compromised experience. Think about it in terms of what people who have used it have said.

Ultimately its a short demo that shows off how hololens does something with Minecraft in a way that current platforms don't offer. The demo is centered around this view but it doesn't mean MS will throw away how every one normally plays Minecraft in order to force third person on you all when using Hololens.

I get that. Microsoft picked Minecraft for a couple of good reasons; it's instantly recognisable and they own it. But as a demonstrator of how HoloLens will improve how people play Minecraft, it falls flat because I think I've watched all the HoloLens demos and in none do you see people playing using HoloLens. I think they could have got a lot more mileage from something like StarCraft II which is a natural topdown-view game. Perhaps the reason they didn't is that the real trick isn't the visuals it's the user interaction and something like StarCraft II would be tricky.

So let me re-iterate for all you HoloLens defenders, I think the tech is great but I think Microsoft have yet to prove it as a platform that could be viable for gaming.

 

[BadTB25]

I thought that you could use Hololens with any input device like Mouse, KB and/or controller. If that's the case, there is no limitation in playing traditional games and projecting it anywhere.

I still think the biggest issue is going to be FOV, size/weight, and cost of the device. I guess resolution and framerate may be an issue, but I haven't seen anyone really bringing this up from the people with actual hands-on.

 

[dobwal]

I know, so comments above about the virtual projected monitor.

May be a virtual projected monitor isn't as good as a physical one. But I doubt that a iphone or android phone screen is better than a physical PC monitor. People still buy the pocket edition in droves despite all its shortcoming in terms of content, controls and screen size.

Here is the gist of my argument. First, its technology and for the most part v.1 are full of rough edges and only give you a hint of whats possible in the future. Whether, the hardware goes to sell like gangbuster or its sell like florida swampland, that reality is almost always true.

Second its gaming and games as a genre of computing software tend to be the most forgiving when it comes to the limitations that are presented by different hardware. Gaming thrives on performant hardware and thrives on s@#$# hardware because providing a fun experience isn't dependent on some rigid rule set that the target hardware must offer outside of some sort of controls to provide interaction.

Third its Minecraft and while I understand the value you place with the content and the controls, Minecraft has shown that its base experience is able in overcome a lack of content, less than stellar controls and small displays to the tune of 30+ million pocket edition sold. If there was any one game that I would choose to port over to a new technology with its own set of limitations, it would be Minecraft.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I thought that you could use Hololens with any input device like Mouse, KB and/or controller. If that's the case, there is no limitation in playing traditional games and projecting it anywhere.

So how would the arrangement of furniture and equipment be? HoloLens is impressive when it's projecting a landscape onto a table so where is he keyboard and mouse? On the same table, a different table?

I think Microsoft have avoided showing HoloLens being used while sat at a desk because at that point the other compromises between a typical workstation setup with a monitor begin to show.

Both of you are making points, I think, without really thinking about what it would be like to use the device in a typical environment. If you have a big enough table I guess there's room for a landscape and keyboard and mouse but now you're tired to where the keyboard and mouse is so walking around the table (as you see being doing in HoloLens demos) to look at things from a different angle means leaving the controls behind.

It's a device that's screams to be used while moving around so you need mobile controls and those are tricky which is why I think StarCraft is a game that would look good but would be a pain to implement well for a better demo. It's a different problem than Minecraft but it's another problem.

I want Microsoft to show solutions rather than more flashy demos.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

May be a virtual projected monitor isn't as good as a physical one. But I doubt that a iphone or android phone screen is better than a physical PC monitor. People still buy the pocket edition in droves despite all its shortcoming in terms of content, controls and screen size.

I don't see the relevance. Phones are multifunction devices, HoloLens is not a mobile phone and not something that I think that people will carry around much so the compromises that phones necessarily must make to be portable is a different issue.

Are are you suggesting the low bar of a mobile phone experience is all that Microsoft are attempting to improve upon?

Third its Minecraft and while I understand the value you place with the content and the controls, Minecraft has shown that its base experience is able in overcome a lack of content, less than stellar controls and small displays to the tune of 30+ million pocket edition sold. If there was any one game that I would choose to port over to a new technology with its own set of limitations, it would be Minecraft.

And from what I've seen of HoloLens, the mobile implementations will be better than the HoloLens implementation. Again, isn't pitching HoloLens against mobile phones a low bar?

 

[BadTB25]

So how would the arrangement of furniture and equipment be? HoloLens is impressive when it's projecting a landscape onto a table so where is he keyboard and mouse? On the same table, a different table?

I think Microsoft have avoided showing HoloLens being used while sat at a desk because at that point the other compromises between a typical workstation setup with a monitor begin to show.

Both of you are making points, I think, without really thinking about what it would be like to use the device in a typical environment. If you have a big enough table I guess there's room for a landscape and keyboard and mouse but now you're tired to where the keyboard and mouse is so walking around the table (as you see being doing in HoloLens demos) to look at things from a different angle means leaving the controls behind.

It's a device that's screams to be used while moving around so you need mobile controls and those are tricky which is why I think StarCraft is a game that would look good but would be a pain to implement well for a better demo. It's a different problem than Minecraft but it's another problem.

I want Microsoft to show solutions rather than more flashy demos.

The device is early with as yet limited applications. Your quick to see what can't be done and the limitations, but are blind to the potential of the device. They are problems granted, but nothing that I don't think can't be overcome.

I look forward to trying it sometime and maybe seeing for myself if what you think is true is true.

 

[MrFox]

I've used a google glass , its horrid. its off center of one eye and you have to focus on looking at it.

Skype is also voice chat

Your the one who brought up dead tree material. I was thinking interfacing over a pc. But since you bring it up , my gf's students do a lot of work during class with paper and pen.

I've already pointed out google glass's major flaw.

Look at these AR glasses. This excludes Google which is currently preparing google glass V2 and this time it's secret because there are many many competitors, including hololens.
http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/augmented-reality-smart-glasses/

All these products are down to a display, a camera, and sensors. The rest is an API and apps. Many different approaches but all somewhere between tiny google glass up to bigger than hololens. There are many competitors to fit anyone's need and size compromises, just like there are many VR HMD being announced.

So I'm looking for a use case which makes hololens better than it's competitors, the ones that are coming soon or are already out, running android. What is MS differentiating factor, and how can it be used? People who will consider buying AR glasses will choose anywhere between the tiny smaller displays, up to the bulky wide displays with integrated CPUs. What is MS edge?

It's not portability, this is one of the biggest yet.
It's not going to be price it has more hardware than anybody else.
It's not availability they are not first to market.
It's not voice chat, a phone can do real video chat.
It's not OS popularity for apps development, as android has 83%+ of the market.
It's not games, as a simple plastic shell over a smartphone provides better VR games.

It has to be AR that uses an aspect of MS hardware which competitors do not have.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The device is early with as yet limited applications. Your quick to see what can't be done and the limitations, but are blind to the potential of the device. They are problems granted, but nothing that I don't think can't be overcome.

I've seen a lot of hardware and platforms with potential and I, and my employer, have been bitten by unfulfilled potential many times over. I'm wary of potential. I want to see solutions to problems not wooly promises and hope.

 

[dobwal]

Look at these AR glasses. This excludes Google which is currently preparing google glass V2 and this time it's secret because there are many many competitors, including hololens.
http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/augmented-reality-smart-glasses/

All these products are down to a display, a camera, and sensors. The rest is an API and apps. Many different approaches but all somewhere between tiny google glass up to bigger than hololens. There are many competitors to fit anyone's need and size compromises, just like there are many VR HMD being announced.

So I'm looking for a use case which makes hololens better than it's competitors, the ones that are coming soon or are already out, running android. What is MS differentiating factor, and how can it be used? People who will consider buying AR glasses will choose anywhere between the tiny smaller displays, up to the bulky wide displays with integrated CPUs. What is MS edge?

It's not portability, this is one of the biggest yet.
It's not going to be price it has more hardware than anybody else.
It's not availability they are not first to market.
It's not voice chat, a phone can do real video chat.
It's not OS popularity for apps development, as android has 83%+ of the market.
It's not games, as a simple plastic shell over a smartphone provides better VR games.

It has to be AR that uses an aspect of MS hardware which competitors do not have.

Its grounded in Windows 10 which supports holography as a standard part of the OS, which means its software support should trump everyone off the back.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Its grounded in Windows 10 which supports holography as a standard part of the OS, which means its software support should trump everyone off the back.

Your logic being because it's standard in Windows, it's the best implementation? Uh...

 

[BadTB25]

I've seen a lot of hardware and platforms with potential and I, and my employer, have been bitten by unfulfilled potential many times over. I'm wary of potential. I want to see solutions to problems not wooly promises and hope.

Fair enough.

 

[MrFox]

On Android, people have been developing AR/VR apps already with a simple cardboard add on. Samsung is already selling the higher quality shell for Note/Galaxy. So android is way ahead for development.

Whenever someone makes a better or more AR-specific display for android, it will already have these apps working. If you can buy a low cost HMD display that sync with your smartphone instead of a complete device it's a much better solution, and it would have universal android support. Such displays are in the work.

However it only applies to apps that need only a screen, a camera, and smartphone sensors. Hence why I'm asking what would be a MS-specific use cases to justify it's more expensive hardware and vendor lock in. All I can think of is that it has to require Kinect.

Direct view AR like hololens, and other, currently have a major limitation: it can only add light and is always semi-tranparent blending with reality. The demo on stage at E3 seemed to be cheating and making an alpha overlay.

 

[dobwal]

Your logic being because it's standard in Windows, it's the best implementation? Uh...

Its not about the best implementation. Outside of Glass being dead and Google going off the radar what other players are there? There a bunch of AR players but the vast majority of either small or not completely embracing the area as a major player in the next gen of consumer products.

Windows in and of itself means very little when you have major competitors with major presence. But MS going on in and incorporating it in windows means hololens already has an ecosystem backing it. Hololens right now is the only AR device with a major public push behind it. And I should correct myself and add technology to the end of Hololens because ultimately MS seems more interested in pushing the tech not the product. If a bunch of third party manufacturers come in and produce there own version of hololens, its going to take a behemoth like Google or Apple to step in or rather out and provide major competition. Its hardware so whoever comes out this space is more than likely to have rather large pockets for their big @#$ wallets. LOL.

I am not talking about VR's OR and Vive in the discussion as I don't consider them the same class of products so my comments weren't made with them in mind. I look at AR vs VR the same as I look at console vs PC.

 

[eastmen]

Look at these AR glasses. This excludes Google which is currently preparing google glass V2 and this time it's secret because there are many many competitors, including hololens.
http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/augmented-reality-smart-glasses/

All these products are down to a display, a camera, and sensors. The rest is an API and apps. Many different approaches but all somewhere between tiny google glass up to bigger than hololens. There are many competitors to fit anyone's need and size compromises, just like there are many VR HMD being announced.

So I'm looking for a use case which makes hololens better than it's competitors, the ones that are coming soon or are already out, running android. What is MS differentiating factor, and how can it be used? People who will consider buying AR glasses will choose anywhere between the tiny smaller displays, up to the bulky wide displays with integrated CPUs. What is MS edge?

It's not portability, this is one of the biggest yet.
It's not going to be price it has more hardware than anybody else.
It's not availability they are not first to market.
It's not voice chat, a phone can do real video chat.
It's not OS popularity for apps development, as android has 83%+ of the market.
It's not games, as a simple plastic shell over a smartphone provides better VR games.

It has to be AR that uses an aspect of MS hardware which competitors do not have.

THe difference is that its just there. A phone is horrible for AR , I've used it before and something like card board takes away your view and you will need to buy a new headset each time you get a phone unless your lucky and they all match up with where the camera is

Glass as it is now doesn't give anywhere near the same experience. Hololens is in your face , glass is this thing that's off to the side. I've used both , glass doesn't hold a candle.

The user case is all of those and known brands like minecraft , halo and so much more.

MS is going to continue making the case for hololens this year. And aside from google and apple , ms has many times the money of the other companys. They want to be the OS for AR and they are going to push for it. When you see the final release of hololens you will be a believer too