Microsoft GC Conference: Live! (text)

[Shifty Geezer]

The usual tech support's often pretty naff anyway in my experience! Short of walking through the process of downloading and installing the latest driver, it tends to be able to offer little advice. I've never known tech support manage to solve problems that have taken me a lot of investigation to fix. But this is going off topic and I'll hold my tongue!

 

[Powderkeg]

aw cmon Powderkeg, if it works, it works. Do you really need tech support on a webcam?
Theres plenty of tutorials on the subject, it's fairly easy to do.

You initially said "Yes, but unlike the EyeToy, MS's camera is also PC compatible." and Shifty corrected you. Not a big deal.

Do I need tech support?

No.

But I work with people who need tech support to show them how to resize a window. Most people I know don't even know what drivers are, much less how to locate and install the correct drivers for a product that technically doesn't have proper PC drivers for it.

If you are going to mass market it, you need to market to the masses, most of which are lucky if they can do anything more technical than browsing web pages and sending email.

 

[Powderkeg]

The usual tech support's often pretty naff anyway in my experience! Short of walking through the process of downloading and installing the latest driver, it tends to be able to offer little advice. I've never known tech support manage to solve problems that have taken me a lot of investigation to fix. But this is going off topic and I'll hold my tongue!

You ever called AOL tech support?

Most of their customers think those guys are very smart.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

aw cmon Powderkeg, if it works, it works. Do you really need tech support on a webcam?
Theres plenty of tutorials on the subject, it's fairly easy to do.

You initially said "Yes, but unlike the EyeToy, MS's camera is also PC compatible." and Shifty corrected you. Not a big deal.

What a crock.

It's people like you and statements like the above that everybody should really keep in mind when they try to project what the common consumer believes or will do based upon the evidence of forums like these.

My ex-girlfriend has two eyetoys because they kept coming packaged with all the games she would buy (which happened to a number of people). She complained, I told her to go on the internet and grab the driver and turn her spare into a regular webcam for her computer.

Fat Chance.

It's hysterical for you to say that the Eyetoy is anywhere close to being supported as a PC peripheral along the lines of the 360 camara. It shows you have absolutely no clue about the ability of common consumers. It also shows you have no idea the importance of MS's Live Anywhere, Integrated Peripherals, or why MS is spending so much time making them work and advertising them.

 

[rabidrabbit]

I thought all EyeToy games after the first Eye Toy were also available as a game only package, no need to buy the camerea with each and every new Eye Toy game.
Your girlfriend has only herself to blame for not paying attention while shopping.

 

[expletive]

I thought all EyeToy games after the first Eye Toy were also available as a game only package, no need to buy the camerea with each and every new Eye Toy game.
Your girlfriend has only herself to blame for not paying attention while shopping.

The point was not how she GOT the cameras, just that when she attempted use them in a PC environment, it was not a "user friendly" experience. That's what is being discussed here.

 

[Bad_Boy]

What a crock.

It's people like you and statements like the above that everybody should really keep in mind when they try to project what the common consumer believes or will do based upon the evidence of forums like these.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm hardly trying to project this on any common consumer. If you dont like what I said, I'm sorry I can't help you.

My ex-girlfriend has two eyetoys because they kept coming packaged with all the games she would buy (which happened to a number of people).

Sounds like a personal problem of not reading the product your're buying. As rabidrabbit said there are eyetoy games sold with just the play disc, infact sold much cheaper than the ones with the eyetoy included. She probably could of saved some money. lol

She complained, I told her to go on the internet and grab the driver and turn her spare into a regular webcam for her computer.

Fat Chance.

As I mentioned before, there are many tutorials on the internet to follow. Not only that but help forums dedicated to getting the eyetoy to work for the PC.

It's hysterical for you to say that the Eyetoy is anywhere close to being supported as a PC peripheral along the lines of the 360 camara. It shows you have absolutely no clue about the ability of common consumers.

The funny thing is, I never say the eyetoy is anywhere close to being supported as a pc peripheral along the lines of the 360 camera. You're putting words in my mouth because I'm pretty sure I never said such things. Powerkeg said it was not compatible, and thats false. Thats basically the most of what I said. As for it being useful for the common consumer, read above.

It also shows you have no idea the importance of MS's Live Anywhere, Integrated Peripherals, or why MS is spending so much time making them work and advertising them.

It's funny you say that like I was even talking about the importance of live anywhere or integrated peripherals. You act like I said the the 360 Vision camera offers no benefits. Which is obviously untrue. Please don't put words in my mouth bro. Its really simple, I was commenting on a error someone made, nothing more. Like I said previously in the 20th post of this thread, It's not a big deal.

Chill out.

 

[pakotlar]

umm, how do these threads always derail into shouting fests. let me add my own:

WINDOWS VISTA IS NOT ACE AT ALL. NEITHER IS MICROSOFT'S EYE TOY. ONLY SONY IS ACE. MUAHAHHAHAHA

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If you are going to mass market it, you need to market to the masses, most of which are lucky if they can do anything more technical than browsing web pages and sending email.

What exactly is the argument here? Why's Rancid getting so uppity? The original point was the XB360 camera is more expensive than EyeToy. PowderKeg's point seems to be that that includes tech support for attaching it to a PC. As a console owner who wants to add guesture recognition to my console, do I care whether the camera has support for PC attachment or not? Would you rather have paid an extra $5 for EyeToy so that when you got help connecting it to PC?

I can only guess that this peripheral is being marketted as something of an XNA device, for use on both XB360 and PC. In which case whether it comes with PC drivers and support or not is an issue. That info wasn't included in this coverage of the GDC though. The camera is called and 'XBox Live Vision' implying it's intended as an XBox peripheral, in which case why should anyone care if it has PC tech support? Isn't that like wanting direct support from Sony for wanting to use a PS2 controller on PC? It's a console peripheral intended for console use, not a PC peripheral, and if you want to try and wire it up to a PC you've no reason to expect the manufacturer to help you support a product in a way it was never intended to be used.

And regardless, I doubt tech support adds anything to the price of the device. EU50 seems reasonably to me for the tech as it comes with a game - it's the cost of a game but with a whole hunk of hardware too!

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm hardly trying to project this on any common consumer. If you dont like what I said, I'm sorry I can't help you.

..sigh

Then your comments have no baring and no importance and your retort to Powderkeg was misplaced and unfounded.

Sounds like a personal problem of not reading the product your're buying. As rabidrabbit said there are eyetoy games sold with just the play disc, infact sold much cheaper than the ones with the eyetoy included. She probably could of saved some money. lol

As I mentioned before, there are many tutorials on the internet to follow. Not only that but help forums dedicated to getting the eyetoy to work for the PC.

Who cares how she spends her money? And FYI, games without the Eyetoy, while available, were not as READILY available. Here's a clue: Why do you think those webguides on how to make an Eyetoy a webcam even exist? They exist because there was a DEMAND, because THAT MANY PEOPLE ended up with extra Eyetoys.

The funny thing is, I never say the eyetoy is anywhere close to being supported as a pc peripheral along the lines of the 360 camera. You're putting words in my mouth because I'm pretty sure I never said such things. Powerkeg said it was not compatible, and thats false. Thats basically the most of what I said. As for it being useful for the common consumer, read above.

Uhh.. No. What you said was:

aw cmon Powderkeg, if it works, it works. [/b]Do you really need tech support on a webcam?[/b]
Theres plenty of tutorials on the subject, it's fairly easy to do.

And this was a direct result of the comparison of the 360 camara. If you haven't noticed, this thread is about MS, not Sony. The only reason the EyeToy is even mentioned is in comparison with the 360 camara that is being announced/demonstrated/revealed at the GC conference.

For you now to claim that 1) you weren't making an 'ease of use' comparison between the Eyetoy and the 360 camara as a PC PERIPHERAL and that 2) You weren't making any statements about ease of use for the common consumer is blatantly disingenious.

Its really simple, I was commenting on a error someone made, nothing more.

Except, that he didn't make an error. The Eyetoy is NOT compatible with the PC, the 360 camara is. The fact that you can circumvent the designed intentions of one product to make it act in a new way doesn't make it compatible.

You are the one in error, not Powderkeg. And there's nothing worse than looking foolish while attempting to correct others. Which is I guess why you continue to protest something you claim is unimportant.

FYI:

4. Computers.
a. (of software) capable of being run on another computer without change.
b. (of hardware) capable of being connected to another device without the use of special equipment or software.

 

[scooby_dooby]

PowderKeg's point seems to be that that includes tech support for attaching it to a PC.

Was that really his point? Or do you think it had more to do with the fact that it is a supported PC peripheral, with bundled software which can be used as a plug and play webcam for casual consumers?

It is essentially a PC webcam that happens to work on the 360, now I wouldn't say that justifies the extra cost (MS are just greedy bastards), but at the same time, it clearly has more value to the casual consumer than the eyetoy which for most people, only works on their console.

 

[Bad_Boy]

RancidLunchmeat
lol You obviously took my post way too seriously and over analysed it; making it something that it's not. I'm not even going to reply to that, it seems you did not get my point the first or second time. Bringing eyetoy in this discussion was off topic enough, its pointless to draw it out more.

Take it easy bro.

 

[expletive]

It is essentially a PC webcam that happens to work on the 360, now I wouldn't say that justifies the extra cost (MS are just greedy bastards), but at the same time, it clearly has more value to the casual consumer than the eyetoy which for most people, only works on their console.

I dont know how to compare webcams spec-wise but if you look at logitech's webcam page, the USD price actually seems fairly reasonable, even though it doesnt include a mic.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/productlist/US/EN,crid=2203

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Was that really his point? Or do you think it had more to do with the fact that it is a supported PC peripheral, with bundled software which can be used as a plug and play webcam for casual consumers?

It is essentially a PC webcam that happens to work on the 360.

Was it actually presented as such though? As I said already, if it's being presented as a cross-platform device then it's PC support matters. But AFAIK it's being advertised and marketted as an XB peripheral, regardless of whether it works on PC or not. Thus anyone who's buying the Xbox Live Vision camera would expect help with getting it to work with their XBox, but why would they expect help getting it to work with their PC? And why should MS make an effort to provide support for PC if they're not intending it to be used there?

Like I say though, maybe that's the actual intention for the device, which would make sense, but in the context of this actual thread which was MS's GC conference, all I've seen is announcement of the camera as XBox Live Vision and it's price. I haven't seen anything from this GC conference saying 'we're offering this as an XB and PC peripheral,' thus it seems any idea MS want PC owners to go out and buy one to use on their PC seems to be just speculation. A quick Google shows Vision is mostly only referenced for XB360 except a couple of news articles...

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/7600.cfm

Maybe that's the info others are referencing in thinking it's a PC part, but if so they should have provide some link or other, as the source of information, Eurogamers text GC coverage, mentioned nothing of the sort!

Plus that doesn't necessarily mean MS are going to provide technical support for it on PC, and I doubt it'd need it anyway. Just plug it in and it works. Any technical problems would need to be tackled on the software where the problem is. And still, it's usefulness as a PC peripheral has negligable relevance to it's price, which is where the EyeToy comparison came up, as you're not going to be adding even $5 each to cover technical support. It's not the case that Vison costs more than EyeToy because it had PC technical support included in the price! The reasons it costs more are better hardware!

 

[rabidrabbit]

The point was not how she GOT the cameras, just that when she attempted use them in a PC environment, it was not a "user friendly" experience. That's what is being discussed here.

Uhh, that's because it's not a PC camera.
It's a PS2 camera

 

[Arwin]

Let's turn this around. Because very early on Sony adopted the USB standard for the PS2 and some enthusiasts figured out which driver to use, you can use the EyeToy on the PC also, even though it was clearly only intended for the PS2, for the PC. This is a lucky advantage.

Just like I was very happy to be able to use Logitech's Wingman PC version with Gran Turismo, which was almost the same wheel as the GT Force but a lot cheaper, and I was also very happy to use the Driving Force Pro designed for GT4 on my PC, especially as it was nearly impossible to get a better wheel than that one for your money at that point in time (and it's still great value at the much lower prices - picked another one up recently for 50 euro).

Also nice is that you can use any USB stick for the Action Replay Max software, or for storing your GT4 photo mode stuff on. Or that you can plug in nearly any old PC IDE HDD (though only up to 160Gb is supported, even if your HDD might work) - never mind that you can't do much legal stuff with it, it was still very nice of Sony to go with standard stuff there and allow it.

If you look at the list of standard interfaces that the PS3 supports, that's just getting better. The proprietary controller connector is now gone also here, meaning that we're no doubt able to use our PS3 controller with PC games soon as well and keep the sharing love going for a long time to come.

Microsoft is only slowly jumping on that bandwagon, and this new camera is a good example (very catchuppy, but hey, they all do it). But the HDD and Memory Cards show that they're not quite there yet, which is a big pity.

Other than that, there wasn't more to say about the Microsoft GC Conference than all this talk about the camera?

I think they did a good job with the footie licences. Even though it was probably fairly easy to convince their respective publishers to play along, I'm sure it will do at the very least a small favor to the European market, especially if the two games are good - there are a LOT of footie fans here.

 

[expletive]

Uhh, that's because it's not a PC camera.
It's a PS2 camera

Please re-read the thread to understand the discussion.

That is a lot, more than EyeToy.

Yes, but unlike the EyeToy, MS's camera is also PC compatible.

EyeToy is PC compatible, just not as standard and you need to grab the right driver. It's just a standard PC webcam inside (the EyeToy).

Does Sony provide the driver and technical support if it doesn't work?

Or is the Eyetoy "PC compatible" via an unsupported hack?

etc, etc, etc

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Was it actually presented as such though? As I said already, if it's being presented as a cross-platform device then it's PC support matters. But AFAIK it's being advertised and marketted as an XB peripheral, regardless of whether it works on PC or not. Thus anyone who's buying the Xbox Live Vision camera would expect help with getting it to work with their XBox, but why would they expect help getting it to work with their PC? And why should MS make an effort to provide support for PC if they're not intending it to be used there?

HUH? Are you going off information just based upon the text of this conference, and ignoring everything else for some mundane purpose, or are you not actually aware of the push that MS is making to produce/distribute/market all their 360 peripherals as compatible with Vista?

The entire point IS that the 360 camara is essentially a plugnplay device for Vista (not sure about XP), just like their wireless controllers, just like their steering wheel, just like... EVERYTHING.

I'm really shocked by this conversation, because it demonstrates that either people haven't been keeping up on information (I find that hard to believe), that people don't really understand the lengths and importance of MS's console/PC integration (I find that hard to believe as well, especially from you), or that people are purposefully disregarding information they are aware of in order to try and justify their previous statements.

The bottom line is that the EyeToy and all it's 'usefullness' is exactly the example that MS needed in order to demonstrate the usefulness of their strategy. Despite the fact that the EyeToy is a USB device you have to jump through hoops in order to get it to function as a basic webcam on your PC. My ex (not the brightest bulb, but not entirely burned out either), couldn't figure out how to get it to work... even after being directed towards websites that had tutorials!

There's no need for direction, the web, or tutorials for the 360 camara. You simply unplug it from the 360, plug it into your PC, and viola! Webcam.

That's called compatibility. You want to play Madden on your PC instead of your 360? Take your controller into the other room and (if you have the PC wireless adapter), BOOM! You're done. Now you're gaming on your PC with the SAME controller you use for your 360. No need to buy a logitech crappy wingman in order to play Madden on your PC.

This is a completely different level of integration than has been seen before, and for people to claim it's no different than what the PS2 offered is beyond foolish.

As far as the financial aspects of the situation, Shifty, I imagine that 1) There are support costs, making a peripheral compatible with both the 360 and Windows Machines and 2) It's a profit center, so the price isn't reflective of the cost.

However, like everything else.. it's up to the market to decide. Would you rather buy a webcam that is only a webcam, or the 360cam that has extra functions plus acts as the webcam... without modification, without additional support/hardware/software?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

HUH? Are you going off information just based upon the text of this conference, and ignoring everything else for some mundane purpose, or are you not actually aware of the push that MS is making to produce/distribute/market all their 360 peripherals as compatible with Vista?

Well yes, because I'm not aware of that big push being a big push rather than a nice little extra (they didn't care to mention that fact in this press conference it seems), and neither would I assume that where many components are PC compatible with the PC, any effort is being made to provide full service to support hardware on those platforms due to the fact that it's not that hard.

1) There are support costs, making a peripheral compatible with both the 360 and Windows Machines

These are minimal. You have two-way comms across a USB port which is trivial. All you need is a driver to map API calls from DirectX onto the hardware. The basic driver is probably provided by the manufacturer who's creating the insides of the cam, maybe with some custom tweaks to accomodate a chip inserted on MS's request to validate it's an official XB peripheral and no other webcams can be used in it's stead. That's defnitely not a complicated nor costly procedure and would add zip to the price.

Would you rather buy a webcam that is only a webcam, or the 360cam that has extra functions plus acts as the webcam... without modification, without additional support/hardware/software?

In my case, if the console peripheral were cheaper I'd choose that one. However that's just a hypothetical situation as the device is reasonably priced as a console peripheral regardless of whether it costs more for PC compatibility or not, and there's no alternative for the public to choose between - if they want camera based games on XB360 they have to buy this and can't buy a cheaper, non-'PC friendly' alternative.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Well yes, because I'm not aware of that big push being a big push rather than a nice little extra (they didn't care to mention that fact in this press conference it seems),

Huh? Try reading the second half of the press conference where they talk about Windows gaming and how all the 360 peripherals work on the PC.

They certainly did mention it, and I'll bet if you can get video of the event, you'll see them demonstrating their PC games by using 360 peripherals.

and neither would I assume that where many components are PC compatible with the PC, any effort is being made to provide full service to support hardware on those platforms due to the fact that it's not that hard.

What a crock. "It's easy to do so MS gets no bonus points for doing it" that seems to be the party line for the anti-MS crowd. Despite the fact that nobody has done it before and MS was the first to actually do it. If it's so easy, why can't I use my damn PS2 Dualshock controller with my PC?