Metal Gear Solid 2...

[Tagrineth]

Well, now that I've had a chance to borrow a PS2, I've finally been able to play through a few games that I've wanted to play through... and this one in particular, I have a few comments about.

A few spoilers in here, btw.

The cutscenes (or "polygon demos", as Konami calls them) really are amazing. I WANT DOCUMENT OF MGS2 AND A PS2 OF MY OWN NOW. *pouts*

I've only been playing MGS2 regular, could someone with Substance tell me exactly what the Snake Tales are? I assume it chronicles Pliskin's misadventures in Shell 2... also I hear ST is very, very hard - is this also true, and if so, just how hard is it?

The controls are great, wonderfully intuitive, and a great evolution from MGS1. I look forward to seeing just how Silicon Knights modifies them for the GameCube's pad... the only button it's missing is an L1 equivalent, and that function can still be accessed via holding shot then crouch (hold square, hold X, then you can release square and keep walking, with the gun ready - just like holding L1).

Whoever it was that complained about tearing in MGS2... holy CRAP, he was right. MGS2's average frame rate is definitely triple-digit, and it shows... there's tearing almost everywhere, and in some fringe cases there are as many as THREE tear lines at one time (four frames in 1/60 of a second - or about 240fps!). It doesn't really hurt IQ much, but it IS pretty irritating and with a frame rate as high as MGS2's, you'd think activating VSync wouldn't make much difference...

...leading into that, I have a theory... did MGS2 begin and go through a lot of development as a PS1 game? There's some reasonable evidence toward this... first, MGS was a mid-life PS1 game, so its timing would seem pretty good. Second, most of the 'world detail' in MGS2 is actually really, really low - most pipes are hexagons, most general objects are big boxes, textures tend to the lower-res blurry side - which would look good point-sampled... and finally, there are three points where the game more or less "forces" you to save. The first one that comes to mind is right after you take down Solidus and Vamp in the Harrier (very fun!) - Rose asks you if you'd like to save, and oddly enough, it's only another minute or so of dialogue before you regain control of Raiden, so it's not like it's a breather in the middle of a crapload of talking. The only games that do that are MULTI-DISC games, which implies that the game was originally meant to be on ~4 CD's. It seems like the extremely detailed characters were added when the move to PS2 was finalised and they realised the PS1-level details wouldn't cut it for everything. Which makes sense, because it's odd seeing so much detail on just the chars, with very little on the 'world'. Also supporting the PS1 argument is that no single area is larger than the largest rooms in MGS1 - and on top of that, the torture room at the end is almost 100% identical to the old one in MGS1.

And finally, DAMN was that one convoluted storyline. That really does bring the game down quite a bit in retrospect. IMO MGS1 is a better game because its plot was stable and good... MGS2's is good, but very confusing and far too twisty... =P

 

[chaphack]

hmmm hmmm....nice theory but iirc KCET goota their PS2 devkits early 1999. i think the blurry textures are just hardware limitations

 

[marconelly!]

They opted to put tons of static light/shadow maps everywhere instead of higher res textures (very smart decision, IMO as it creates believable atmosphere) as well as to dedicate a lot of CPU power to physics, effects (still the best rain and best underwater in a game) and AI instead of 'regular' graphics.

I've only been playing MGS2 regular, could someone with Substance tell me exactly what the Snake Tales are? I assume it chronicles Pliskin's misadventures in Shell 2... also I hear ST is very, very hard - is this also true, and if so, just how hard is it?

Snake tales are not very, very hard. They are hard, however.
IN snake tales you control Snake at all times, and are faced with various mini-stories and challenges that all take place at the existing locations from MGS2.

MGS2's average frame rate is definitely triple-digit, and it shows...

You got that completely wrong. Tearing happens when the game can't keep up the 60FPS framerate (and that's mostly when you move the view in the first person mode because pre-defined cameras are avoiding to show most of the scene). When it can, the framerate is locked to 60. You cannot seriously think the game looking like that could run at 120+ FPS on PS2?

Your PS1 argument is pretty much wrong as the work on the game has only started after their careful examination of the (finished) PS2 hardware. As for geometry complexity, I remember reading that Kojima said that they had to make everything on most scenes render twice just because of the reflections on the floor (MGS2 is one of the few games that actually has reflections of all the people on the floors) and he decided to spend polygons that way instead of making more complex looking scenes. Still, they managed to make the very detailed look of the outside of the tanker for example, and some other memorable set pieces. Btw, pipes are most definitely *not* hexagons in MGS2 They are at the very least octagons and that's in the scenes when there's crapload of them

 

[zurich]

The corridor scenes in the Tanker, right before the marines, show off an amazing amount of geometry.. those pipes are round as can be! However, IMO that area is mostly gourad shaded, as if you fire your weapon to iluminate the shadows, anywhere in the 'dark' is texture-less

I could buy some areas of the Shell being PS1-deved, but the outside of the Tanker? Yeesh! I'm still amazed at the intro when the camera pans up and shows Snake standing on the bow of the ship

 

[a4164]

Does the Xbox version of Substance have the Vsync enabled?

 

[Deepak]

MGS2 is unduly critisize for its story.....story was great notwithstanding the numerous twists and turns.....in a game you can take some liberty. The overall feel of it was GREAT. Boss fights were both unique and awesome....

giving cover fire to Otacon's sister...
saving her from her underground room....
fights with Fortune/Vampire/That Russian girl/3 Metal Gears/Solidus Snake/Harrier etc.....

 

[_phil_]

I believe PA showed polygons numbers in the range of 35K/frame on the outside tanker .
Kojima said MGS2 have ps2's power balanced about 30% for visuals and 70% for behavior (AI,Physics,animmation).

 

[marconelly!]

Does the Xbox version of Substance have the Vsync enabled?

No. As a matter of fact, the tearing and framerate as a whole, is a lot worse in Xbox version.

 

[PC-Engine]

Whoever it was that complained about tearing in MGS2... holy CRAP, he was right. MGS2's average frame rate is definitely triple-digit, and it shows... there's tearing almost everywhere, and in some fringe cases there are as many as THREE tear lines at one time (four frames in 1/60 of a second - or about 240fps!). It doesn't really hurt IQ much, but it IS pretty irritating and with a frame rate as high as MGS2's, you'd think activating VSync wouldn't make much difference...

Um..that would be me...

 

[a4164]

Does the Xbox version of Substance have the Vsync enabled?

No. As a matter of fact, the tearing and framerate as a whole, is a lot worse in Xbox version.

Thanks, that settles which version to get. I would not have mind the slowdown if the v-sync tearing was gone, but now it comes down to the cheaper version

 

[Evil_Cloud]

Does the Xbox version of Substance have the Vsync enabled?

No. As a matter of fact, the tearing and framerate as a whole, is a lot worse in Xbox version.

Isn't that because of the 'made-for-PS2-algorythms' in the Xbox version?

 

[marconelly!]

Thanks, that settles which version to get. I would not have mind the slowdown if the v-sync tearing was gone, but now it comes down to the cheaper version

Xbox version is actually probably cheaper, but is also clearly inferior visually, it has many subtle (and not so subtle) effects reduced or otherwise ruined, even the textures suffer from some recompresion artifacts. Then add bigger framerate problems on top of that.

Don't get me wrong, Xbox version is just fine, and most of these problems are not glaringly obvious (well, they are to me, but I look for these things) Xbox version also has 4.0 DD surround during the gameplay and 5.1 during some cutscenes, where PS2 version has 'regular' Dolby Surround during gameplay and 5.1 DD during some cut scenes.

One other thing to take note of - the original MGS2 on PS2 is probably the *most* polished version of the game. Substance on PS2 has a bit longer loading times (just a tad bit longer, but I can notice it) and the original comes with much nicer manual.

Isn't that because of the 'made-for-PS2-algorythms' in the Xbox version?

I don't think we'll ever know the real reason without disassembling the code. Noone has ever made an official comment about it. The algorithms used for some of the effects, like rain, are clearly not the same though, as the resulting effect looks quite different and simplified in the Xbox version (and still causes the bad slowdown).

 

[Rodéric]

...the original MGS2 on PS2 is probably the *most* polished version of the game...

Wait for a NGC remake

 

[marconelly!]

Wait for a NGC remake

You mean NGC2, five years down the line?

 

[Tagrineth]

MGS2's average frame rate is definitely triple-digit, and it shows...

You got that completely wrong. Tearing happens when the game can't keep up the 60FPS framerate (and that's mostly when you move the view in the first person mode because pre-defined cameras are avoiding to show most of the scene). When it can, the framerate is locked to 60. You cannot seriously think the game looking like that could run at 120+ FPS on PS2?

Well, to be fair, tearing can be caused by both. And your explanation only covers cases with only one tear line, i.e. if the rasteriser drops half a frame behind, it'll send whole frames when the display is already halfway done with the image, until the frame rate stabilises again.

If there are TWO tear lines, there have to be three separate frames displayed - at least two completed on that 1/60th of a second interval. You could end one, begin AND end a second, and then start a third... but then again, why would the rasteriser send a third incomplete frame to the display if there's no sync? So there should be two completed frames on that interval for two tears.

And as I said, if there are THREE tear lines, then obviously the frame rate is reaching ludicrous levels.

The graphics really aren't all that for anything other than characters... the world objects are in fact somewhat pathetically low-poly, right on par with MGS1's world detail in many areas.

Your PS1 argument is pretty much wrong as the work on the game has only started after their careful examination of the (finished) PS2 hardware. As for geometry complexity, I remember reading that Kojima said that they had to make everything on most scenes render twice just because of the reflections on the floor (MGS2 is one of the few games that actually has reflections of all the people on the floors) and he decided to spend polygons that way instead of making more complex looking scenes. Still, they managed to make the very detailed look of the outside of the tanker for example, and some other memorable set pieces. Btw, pipes are most definitely *not* hexagons in MGS2 They are at the very least octagons and that's in the scenes when there's crapload of them

Are you certain there was *NO* work on MGS2 before Konami had already worked with PS2? And if you look at the pipes all over Shell 1, they are ALL SIX-SIDED, with maybe a handful of small ones being eight-sided...

I believe PA showed polygons numbers in the range of 35K/frame on the outside tanker .

Yeah, I'd guess then the Tanker was Made For PS2(tm), which the rain and sheer size of the outside area would indicate...

Ah well. I'd still like someone to come up with some kind of purpose to the 'save requests' like the one I mentioned, right after the Harrier... what other purpose could it serve other than a disc change break?

 

[marconelly!]

Well, to be fair, tearing can be caused by both. And your explanation only covers cases with only one tear line, i.e. if the rasteriser drops half a frame behind, it'll send whole frames when the display is already halfway done with the image, until the frame rate stabilises again.

Good point, but I've noticed that the image does not tear if you for example look towards the simple wall and move the camera around. In that instance the framerate should be highest possible, but there will be no tearing.

The graphics really aren't all that for anything other than characters... the world objects are in fact somewhat pathetically low-poly, right on par with MGS1's world detail in many areas.[/quite]
I don't feel like arguing with this, as having played MGS1 couple of months ago, it really makes no sense to me, so let's just agree to disagree. I can only suggest you play the game again and pay a bit more attention to scenes like the engine room, the rooms with 64 soldiers, or the underwater scenes in the shell (just off the top of my head).

The saving request at the middle of the game you mentioned is probably added there to mimic the saving request from MGS1 right before you get captured in the middle of the game (remember, MGS2 'simulates' events from MGS1) Do you really think they would get so far as to do voice recording of half of the game without knowing it's going to be made for PS2?

 

[zurich]

Don't get me wrong, Xbox version is just fine, and most of these problems are not glaringly obvious (well, they are to me, but I look for these things) Xbox version also has 4.0 DD surround during the gameplay and 5.1 during some cutscenes, where PS2 version has 'regular' Dolby Surround during gameplay and 5.1 DD during some cut scenes.

Marc, you know better than that The only thing in DD in MGS2 is the intro and Jazz song at the end! It's frickin lame and Konami should be shot for adding the DD logo to the packaging/DVD!! Why all the cutscenes aren't in DD, I guess we'll never know... (time restraints? Why not put them into Substance?)

clarification: the DD we're talking about on PS2 is simply a pre-encoded track, much like a DVD.. no matter how hard it tries, the PS2 can't do real time encoding like the Xbox MCP.

 

[marconelly!]

Marc, you know better than that The only thing in DD in MGS2 is the intro and Jazz song at the end! It's frickin lame and Konami should be shot for adding the DD logo to the packaging/DVD!! Why all the cutscenes aren't in DD, I guess we'll never know... (time restraints? Why not put them into Substance?)

clarification: the DD we're talking about on PS2 is simply a pre-encoded track, much like a DVD.. no matter how hard it tries, the PS2 can't do real time encoding like the Xbox MCP.

I have said 'some cut scenes', and In all honesty I thought there was couple more of them, not just the first and the last one that had DD5.1 sound. I also never said PS2 version has DD encoding ingame (I'm well aware that none of the PS2 games does DD encoding, although some do DTS encoding, but not MGS2). Actually, I realy don't see what's so wrong with what I wrote there :\

 

[rabidrabbit]

It's the intros (tanker and plant) and the end that have 5.1 DD on PS2 MGS2.
So that makes three places where it is used.
It was a bit cheap to advertise the game having 5.1 DD sound in cutscenes, as there is so little. I thought at first there was something wrong with my sound settings when it was only stereo.

 

[London Geezer]

Marc, you know better than that The only thing in DD in MGS2 is the intro and Jazz song at the end! It's frickin lame and Konami should be shot for adding the DD logo to the packaging/DVD!! Why all the cutscenes aren't in DD, I guess we'll never know... (time restraints? Why not put them into Substance?)

clarification: the DD we're talking about on PS2 is simply a pre-encoded track, much like a DVD.. no matter how hard it tries, the PS2 can't do real time encoding like the Xbox MCP.

I have said 'some cut scenes', and In all honesty I thought there was couple more of them, not just the first and the last one that had DD5.1 sound. I also never said PS2 version has DD encoding ingame (I'm well aware that none of the PS2 games does DD encoding, although some do DTS encoding, but not MGS2). Actually, I realy don't see what's so wrong with what I wrote there :\

Marco is right, the cutscene after the tank episode, when introducing the second part of the game with Raiden, is in DD5.1 "for a while". still, the implementation of DD in MGS2 is atrocious, first u have to turn it on in the options every frikking time u start the game, then it's only for 2 or 3 cutscenes....

well, SSX3 is coming out, that will give me some DTS joy.... the first ever review of SSX3 was pretty good, they said the game is on par with Tricky (which is one of the best games ever in my opinion) although it's not as "wow"-ing as Tricky was when it came out. still, superior in graphics, sound and pretty much everything... structurally they went the -yawn- GTA way (free game "missions", like choose-and-go)