Load time in 360

[Shifty Geezer]

Slower. As has been mentioned, it's faster to load compressed data and decompress it, than to load it uncompressed from any optical medium.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Most console games are already loading compressed assets.
OK you might use a better compression scheme, but your only talking about 10-20% savings over what's already in use at most.

I know one example of GTA3 for PS2 the game didn't even use MP3 compression (maybe you could elaborate to why?) but simply adding that compression shaved over 1GB off the total size (> 25%) for the XBOX version.

 

[Powderkeg]

PGR3 appears to be a rush job in multiple ways. So far I think we have a pretty good number of launch games that are taking advantage of cacheing. Which bodes well for the system going forward.

PGR3's not supporting caching has nothing to do with it being rushed, it was an intentional design decision.

 

[ERP]

I know one example of GTA3 for PS2 the game didn't even use MP3 compression (maybe you could elaborate to why?) but simply adding that compression shaved over 1GB off the total size (> 25%) for the XBOX version.

Speculation only since I didn't work on it.
Because you have to dedicate CPU to decode it, while your playing the game.
You'd also probably seek as many times to play the MP3 as you would to play the WAV, and that's the real killer for audio. It's not limited by bandwidth and it doesn't even consume that much bandwidth, but continually seeking to read it, can impact your load times elsewhere.

I was really talking about lossless compression (zip like compression) for assets in a game.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Slower. As has been mentioned, it's faster to load compressed data and decompress it, than to load it uncompressed from any optical medium.

Under the assumptions that a) real-world throughput from the Bluray drive is significantly greater (this is valid if we're confining the discussion to PS3 vs. 360 as opposed to DVD vs. Bluray), and b) the compression scheme is not something insanely complicated like 7th order finite context modelling or something. I'm personally a fan of bwt/mtf+arithmetic coding myself, but there's more of a "cuteness" factor there than anything else.

PGR3's not supporting caching has nothing to do with it being rushed, it was an intentional design decision.

Come to think of it, I don't recall any of the PGR series to be that great on load time. Okay, they weren't Jade Empire bad, but still...

 

[Bill]

Blu Ray will be slower unless it's 4X+ drive in PS3. Which was deemed unlikely.

I thought.

 

[pc999]

I dont expect in the future to happear more games using the HDD, once I expect that the % of HDD decreasse with the higher number of XB sold, unless MS get a very cheap way to use it.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Speculation only since I didn't work on it.
Because you have to dedicate CPU to decode it, while your playing the game.
You'd also probably seek as many times to play the MP3 as you would to play the WAV, and that's the real killer for audio. It's not limited by bandwidth and it doesn't even consume that much bandwidth, but continually seeking to read it, can impact your load times elsewhere.

I was really talking about lossless compression (zip like compression) for assets in a game.

wouldn't it be logical to assume, then, that the extra CPU processing power might allow you to compress files that would otherwise have not been feasable?

i'm mainly wondering about the impact compression can have on disc space, not load times. It's interesting that even though compression algorithms aren't worlds better, the extra processing power may allow them to compress files would've otherwise been uncompressed.

I don't know how often you guys come across problems like that though...i just know the one example from GTA.

 

[one]

Blu Ray will be slower unless it's 4X+ drive in PS3. Which was deemed unlikely.

I thought.

The market demand seems to move into a different direction from what you expected...

http://www.panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en051117-2/en051117-2.html

World's first chipset that has perfect record/play compatibility among the BD, DVD-Multi, +R, +RW, and CD formats. Chipset also features the industry's highest record/play performance (BD media record/play speed: 4x).

Panasonic will start sample shipments in December 2005 and mass production in January 2006.

 

[AlphaWolf]

The market demand seems to move into a different direction from what you expected...

http://www.panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en051117-2/en051117-2.html

That chipset isn't going to appear in a ps3 though is it?

 

[one]

wouldn't it be logical to assume, then, that the extra CPU processing power might allow you to compress files that would otherwise have not been feasable?

You mean decompression? As for Xbox 360, it has XMA hardware decoder in its southbridge which means as long as you stick to XMA the CPU is free from decompression hit.

That chipset isn't going to appear in a ps3 though is it?

Well, just watching the market trend

 

[AlphaWolf]

I don't doubt blu-ray players will move up in speeds, I just doubt it would be in time for a spring launch of ps3. Maybe in time for a US launch.

 

[ERP]

wouldn't it be logical to assume, then, that the extra CPU processing power might allow you to compress files that would otherwise have not been feasable?

i'm mainly wondering about the impact compression can have on disc space, not load times. It's interesting that even though compression algorithms aren't worlds better, the extra processing power may allow them to compress files would've otherwise been uncompressed.

I don't know how often you guys come across problems like that though...i just know the one example from GTA.

Audio is a somewhat interesting case.
X360 has hardware support for some compressed formats, which will have some impact on disc usage.

I guess you could start using Jpeg type compression or other lossy format on textures if you had to.

But most games I've looked at or worked on the disc space is eaten up by Audio and FMV.

 

[The_Standard]

Blu Ray will be slower unless it's 4X+ drive in PS3. Which was deemed unlikely.

I thought.

Not as unlikely as once thought.

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/176385.html

Panasonic Develops World's First Chipset for Blu-ray

Posted by Admin on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 01:45 am:
BD Drive Can Record and Play Blu-ray Disc (BD), DVD, and CD Media Formats

Osaka, Japan - Panasonic, the leading brand for which Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. is best known, today announced that it has developed the new chipset for disc drives to record and play Blu-ray Disc (BD), DVD-Multi (DVD-RAM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, and DVD-ROM), +R, +RW, and all CD formats. Blu-ray Disc format, which use a blue-violet laser, is being promoted as a standard for next-generation optical discs. So far chipsets for BD-R/BD-RE and DVD/CD were commercialized separately. However, the demand for a BD drive that is compatible with all BD/DVD/CD media formats increases. The chipset achieves the industry's highest record/play BD performance. BD drives with DVD record/play and CD record/play functions can be easily manufactured.

Panasonic will start sample shipments in December 2005 and mass production in January 2006.

Advantages
This chipset is in accordance with BD and DVD/CD standards, and consists of two chips: a front-end processor for analog processing such as servo control and laser power control, and a optical disc controller for signal processing as digital lead channel. The advantages are as follows:
Can be easily applied to PCs, which require compatibility with multiple media formats, by following the newest BD standards, including BD-ROM standards, and by making hybrid discs using conventional media.
World's first chipset that has perfect record/play compatibility among the BD, DVD-Multi, +R, +RW, and CD formats. Chipset also features the industry's highest record/play performance (BD media record/play speed: 4x).
As for PC interface, the new chipsets have a series of part numbers which are applicable for either ATAPI or Serial-ATA.

Technologies
The new chipset was achieved by applying the following technologies:
BD/DVD hybrid digital lead channel technology using Matsushita's original PRML method
Highly accurate write strategy technology and high-speed signal processing technology for high-density and high-speed media
Built-in Serial-ATA core developed by Matsushita (conforms to Serial-ATA 1.0a standard)

Practical Applications
Start of sample shipments: December 2005
Sample price: Depends on quantity
Start of product shipments: January 2006

Patent
Domestic patents: 247 Overseas patents: 315 (Including pending applications)

 

[The_Standard]

By the above, I did not mean to imply Sony would use a Panasonic Blu-ray chip in the PS3...just pointing to an interesting view into the state of the tech right now.

 

[AlphaWolf]

It was already posted in this thread.

 

[mckmas8808]

By the above, I did not mean to imply Sony would use a Panasonic Blu-ray chip in the PS3...just pointing to an interesting view into the state of the tech right now.

And you know what? The drive in the PS3 will be read-only, so that could ensure a higher speed than what some people think. It will be interesting to see what Sony chooses.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I don't see how it's gonna be a 4x drive, when the ps2 only had a 3x despite dvd being sold worldwide for 2 years already. blu-ray is much newer than dvd, and even the ps2 dvd drives were HORRIBLE for reliability, I don't see them aiming for a super highr ead speed here. They've never shown they're too concerned with load times, reliabilitiy and durabilitiy of the drive is MUCH more important, oh and a little thing called cost.

I wouldn't be surprised to see most games use DVD + high compression rather than bluray for PS3.

 

[mckmas8808]

I wouldn't be surprised to see most games use DVD + high compression rather than bluray for PS3.

Yeah I think that will happen for the first year. But come 2007 I expect the first games to use Blu-ray disc.

 

[Farid]

Having said that developers are aware of what is tolerable in load times and they'll build their games accordingly, so I don't expect on average slower loading.

In the X360 case MS have a guideline concerning the load times. 40 sec maximum.

About the PS3 BRD drive, as OT as it is, you might consider the fact the DVD data transfer speed in PS2 was roughly equal to the CD's one.