Last of Us spoilers

Can you go to Ellie without hurting any doctor? I walked toward his scalpel and then killed him, the other to I left because I hurried to get to Ellie. Their reactions were great, one doctor yelling "You are an animal" and then the other doctor telling "Shut up!".
Hurt, no, but not kill - probably yes. I was really infuriated by the Firefly's plan to kill Ellie and when I burst in to the surgery room, I shot the first doctor in the leg which disabled him. The other two didn't pose a threat so I let them be.
 
I don't think the story was realistic, as others already said, whole reason why Ellie must die is fishy, Joel recovery after he was being pierced through is very unlikely.

If you wanna kill somebody, do it quickly before you attach yourself to them....
 
Can you go to Ellie without hurting any doctor? I walked toward his scalpel and then killed him, the other to I left because I hurried to get to Ellie. Their reactions were great, one doctor yelling "You are an animal" and then the other doctor telling "Shut up!".

I tought that part were great aswell..

I were totally onboard with Joel running to save Ellie - and I hadn't met Marlene yet, so when I ddin't see her amongst the doctors I decided to execute all of them.
I brought the big handgun 'Diablo' for the job, and shot all three at point blank range in the head, to be sure that marlene didn't have people around to finnish up the job, when she inevitable turned up to convince me it were the wrong idea to run away with her.

The way the third nurse scremed when I walked over - and he somehow pulled her out from under her hiding place were horrible - I felt really bad for executing her afterwards. :p
 
I'm ok with saying Joel's actions were understandable form the point of view of the human's instinctive protective behaviour towards his loved one, but from a cold blooded, rational point of view, he was just a passionate guy killing dozens of fireflys for the sake of one person. He selfishly exchanged multiple lives for the sake of one girl's. It's wrong even if you ignore the whole cure thing.
 
I'm ok with saying Joel's actions were understandable form the point of view of the human's instinctive protective behaviour towards his loved one, but from a cold blooded, rational point of view, he was just a passionate guy killing dozens of fireflys for the sake of one person. He selfishly exchanged multiple lives for the sake of one girl's. It's wrong even if you ignore the whole cure thing.

Joel weren't wrong. If the Fireflies had been in the right - they'd let him go talk to her, or talked to her about what she tought - instead they locked him up, in their eagerness to start cutting into her brain before she regained conciousness, and told him he'd be shot if he tried to go see her. :)

Nature found a way to make Ellie imune, maybe her (or other people like her) will be imune aswell, or provide the imunity to their children. Killing her would just ruin the chance humans had to start over, if she's really the only imune person, once the weak links has been weeded out.

After that, Fireflies weren't any different than David, in my book.
They just had different ways to try to keep humanity going, but none of them were right. :p
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Just completed the game of this generation.

Wow, simply wow...can't wait for NDs next game.

At the end I kneecapped scale guy and took Ellie to freedom :)
 
Joel weren't wrong. If the Fireflies had been in the right - they'd let him go talk to her, or talked to her about what she tought - instead they locked him up, in their eagerness to start cutting into her brain before she regained conciousness, and told him he'd be shot if he tried to go see her. :)

Nature found a way to make Ellie imune, maybe her (or other people like her) will be imune aswell, or provide the imunity to their children. Killing her would just ruin the chance humans had to start over, if she's really the only imune person, once the weak links has been weeded out.

After that, Fireflies weren't any different than David, in my book.
They just had different ways to try to keep humanity going, but none of them were right. :p

No one was in the right. That's why I was initially a little disapointed with the outset of the game, with joel's emotional heroic act of mass murder. It felt like the typical american movie (and to some extent people, but that's another topic) manicheit logic of Absolute Good vs. Absolute Bad. And saving lifes is always in the Good. Well, what life is more worth saving, millions of strangers, or that one cute girl you have grown into?
But my point isn't even that one. I actually question Joels reasons. He didn't save Ellie thinking on her. He was thinking on HIM. The way he found to cope with the death of his daughter was by toughnig up and frozing his heart down to a ice rock. Throughout the game, Ellie progressively woke his emotions up again, by her lighthearted spirit, jokes, and insistance on touching into personal topics that Joel had avoided for years. Now that he was re-humanized, he sort of grew overly atached to Ellie almost in a parasitive way.
I say this because the way I took it, Ellie suspected her fate could be death, and was willing to do it if necessary. I've seen people say she was quiet on the last city because of the winter events. I think it was only that day, joel said "why are you so quiet today" when certanily there has been a lot of time between her David situation and them getting to that last city. Ellie says a bunch of vague stuff that points to her knowing that might be her last day. She even gives Joel's family picture back to him as if that was her last oportunity. Joel just doesn't realize it because he is too busy enjoying his new pet-daughter, and is being rather insensitive with his talk about future plans or how he wished Ellie would have liked his daughter. Her end-game speech is all about how she felt like she didn't deserve to be alive, and how many people died just so she could get to the fireflies, so she'd better be certain joel wasn't lying.
Yes the fireflights way of handling the situation was also shady and wrong. They were desperate. And yes they could end up sacrificing Ellie and not get the cure anyway. And yes Ellie didn't spell it out that she would acept going through the procedings ( which was a mistake of the FF cause if they had her sign a paper, I think she would've). But that didn't happen. Joel had to imperfect choices. Let Ellie die despite the incorrect way the FF were hadling the whole thing, and despite the fact that sucess is not guaranteed. Or Kill a bunch of people and take Ellie out without consulting her.
I think the prospect of fiding a cure, even if faint, is worth sacrificing a life on a world were life has grown this fragile. Death is really not that uncommon anymore. But most importantly, the sacrifice was worth it because Ellie though so. Joel was as desperate as the FF on his rescue. Nobody actually heard what the actual immune girl wanted to do, she was treated as 'cargo' by both. And I think that's why the ending is awsome. It's crude, sad, but real. And hell of strong.
 
I actually question Joels reasons. He didn't save Ellie thinking on her. He was thinking on HIM.

I am not sure if this is the case.

*If* Joel considered Ellie to be his daughter, it is natural and inevitable for him to protect her interest at the same time.

Between him and Ellie, I would say that he's in no hurry to save humanity but the 14 year old couldn't wait to jump in right away. Being more experienced in life, he should be able to think a few steps ahead of Ellie. He seems like a smart guy. I assume he would have contemplated multiple outcomes during their long journey. The most damaging tape he listened to was probably the one where a Firefly scientist b*tched about his colleagues' incompetency.

[size=-2]Goddamn, it's just a game ! ^_^[/size]
 
I think it's pretty safe to say that no matter how 'questionable' Joels actions were - the fact remains he was not the worst offender.

The fireflies bullied the pair of them, neither were given a choice, not even Joel - he was told to understand that it 'might be for the greater good' - what a crock...he wasn't even allowed to say goodbye!? They both went through hell to get there so why so 'easily' refuse to take the final step? Because neither expected she would have to die.

It's questioned as to why Ellie is quite leading up to the hospital - it's because Joel potentially was going to drop her off and return to his life. She said no-one had stayed with her so long before, she clearly cared for him as much as she might her dad...but it was never fully returned.

Joel on the other hand was cold all the way through, he only just decided to take her the rest of the way (after meeting up with his brother) and even after the David thing it was questionable whether Ellie understood where his feelings were, after all he was just doing his job of protecting her to deliver her to the fireflies.

Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but as a father you do make descisions for your kids - what's to say in a couple of years he doesn't sit her down and explain so she can make the choice she was never given.
 
But my point isn't even that one. I actually question Joels reasons. He didn't save Ellie thinking on her. He was thinking on HIM. The way he found to cope with the death of his daughter was by toughnig up and frozing his heart down to a ice rock. Throughout the game, Ellie progressively woke his emotions up again, by her lighthearted spirit, jokes, and insistance on touching into personal topics that Joel had avoided for years. Now that he was re-humanized, he sort of grew overly atached to Ellie almost in a parasitive way.
I say this because the way I took it, Ellie suspected her fate could be death, and was willing to do it if necessary. I've seen people say she was quiet on the last city because of the winter events. I think it was only that day, joel said "why are you so quiet today" when certanily there has been a lot of time between her David situation and them getting to that last city. Ellie says a bunch of vague stuff that points to her knowing that might be her last day. She even gives Joel's family picture back to him as if that was her last oportunity. Joel just doesn't realize it because he is too busy enjoying his new pet-daughter, and is being rather insensitive with his talk about future plans or how he wished Ellie would have liked his daughter. Her end-game speech is all about how she felt like she didn't deserve to be alive, and how many people died just so she could get to the fireflies, so she'd better be certain joel wasn't lying.
Yes the fireflights way of handling the situation was also shady and wrong. They were desperate. And yes they could end up sacrificing Ellie and not get the cure anyway. And yes Ellie didn't spell it out that she would acept going through the procedings ( which was a mistake of the FF cause if they had her sign a paper, I think she would've). But that didn't happen. Joel had to imperfect choices. Let Ellie die despite the incorrect way the FF were hadling the whole thing, and despite the fact that sucess is not guaranteed. Or Kill a bunch of people and take Ellie out without consulting her.
I think the prospect of fiding a cure, even if faint, is worth sacrificing a life on a world were life has grown this fragile. Death is really not that uncommon anymore. But most importantly, the sacrifice was worth it because Ellie though so. Joel was as desperate as the FF on his rescue. Nobody actually heard what the actual immune girl wanted to do, she was treated as 'cargo' by both. And I think that's why the ending is awsome. It's crude, sad, but real. And hell of strong.

I totally agree. Joel's attachment to Ellie at that point is pathological. He can't survive another loss like his daughter's death, not after the near death when Ellie almost drowns, and we should have realized by this point that Joel will do anything to survive. There is no line he won't cross, no face he won't crush and no lie he won't tell to keep on his feet.

Incidentally, much of the game is also about Ellie discovering her own powerful will to survive, culminating with her triumph over David. "The Last of Us" are literally humanity whittled down to the few who have proven they will do whatever it takes to stay alive, whether it's isolating yourself like Bill, resorting to cannibalism like David or starting a guerrilla war in one of the last remaining safe zones on the continent like Marlene.
 
Of course there is no "right" interpretation to the story. I'm just defending the way I took it when playing, and I feel like it's the more bleak and interesting way to end the game. The cute Joel and Ellie now go live happily ever after interpretation is just too silly for me.
I agree Joe started seeing Ellie as his daughter, and as such I can understand his extreme actions, and even think that I would probably do the same were I in his shoes. Nonetheless, I canot say his actions were right.
Both him and the FF were wrong, but I wouldn't say FF were the worst. They do have the whole "saving the entirity of humanity" thing going for them, I guess that is a significant thing at their side. All Joel had was the life of a teenager girl (remember, in this post-pandamic world life is not that valuable anymore) who was supposed to have died by infection before, and that latter confessed she wished he had, but I don't think he was fighting for that. He was fighting for his peace of mind, and Ellie was just a mere object he used to attain it.
 
but we dont know FF real agenda.
if this was final fantasy, FF will be revealed to be the Actual bad guys.

the way they handle Ellie are very suspicious. Why they did not ellie talks with joel, why they need to kill Ellie just to take a sample?

its like FF got the jackpot (ellie) that are a crucial factor for their hidden agenda. Thats why they dont want ellie to talk to joel, thats why they want ellie dead.

my mind blown :/
Man, what an ending. Still cant stop thinking about it haha. Nice job ND.
 
Well the reason LoU is so good, is it doesn't have the kind of steryotipical formulaic story of FinalFantasy games or most other RPGs. As I said, at the beggining of the last level, I was worried the game was going for that. The typical silly "twist" (if you can call something that predictable a twist) that the supposed good guys FireFlies are actually villains. "Oh, you don't tell" zzzzzzz. I was really pissed that the game was doing that. And I really legitimately believed that was going to be the ending as that's the typical kind of story the Uncharted games told (though they fit the hollywood adventure movie universe those games are set in)
I was completely pissed with that ending untill the Epilogue. Ellies angry mood and Joels oblivious "hey let's play daddy and daughert as if I didn't just murder the FireFlies leader that was kind of like a second mother to you, and didn't completely fuck up what you have fought your ass off for during the entire last year" tone took me by surprise. That was not the typical FinalFantasy plot there, nor UC. It didn't have a clear good vs. bad line. And the final scene, just won me over. The game ends with a blatant Lie. Way to start a Father-daugther relationship, with a big fat lie. Awesome.

So yeah, there was no right decision for Joel to make, as the FireFlies plan could fail or simply another one altogether (although it doesn't really look like that to me)
But the way I see it goes like this.
Saving Ellie:
Pros- The girl does not die.
Cons- The cure doesn't even get a chance. -FireFlies who were actively working for a cure get completely fucked up. -Mass Murder -Ellie's jorney became in vain. -We don't even know if she wants to be saved.
Leaving Ellie:
Pros- Humanity might be saved. -Mission acomplished. -the FireFlies are left alone.
Cons- The cure might not work. -We don't even know if she want's to sacrifice herself (though her ending talk with Joel gives us reason to believe whe did, but that was after the fact)
My thinking: No matter how dim the possibilities of a cure are, the prospect of success is so great, it outweights the costs. You have to be an asshole to not give it a try.

Joel's thinking:
Cons- My pet daugher will die. My pet Daugher will die. My pet daugher will die.
Pros- Nahnahnahnahnah, I don't wanna hear it. FireFlies are assholes. I want my pet daughter. I decide wat happens to her.

EDIT:
There's one thing I've left out though, that is a very important point. Ellie also can not complain about Joel taking the role of the father and making decisions for her, because she Asked for it too. She threw a fit about Joel leaving her back at that village. So whe is also one to blame. Joel never wanted to grow atached to the girl, she was the one that insisted on it, so she just got what she asked for.
She is also this complicated mix of adult-child where she did not only survive on her own during winter, but managed to save Joel while doing it, but as soon as he is around, she happily re-asumes her protegee role. So is she the one to decide if she should sacrifice herself? Should she be treated as a minor or an adult, in a world like this? If the decision is up to her guardian, who is it? Joel or QueenFF (forgot her name). QueenFF was the one trusted with Ellie by the girl's mother herself, but then Joel was trusted with the gril by the Queen. Who has the say?
It's extremelly difficult to chose a side. Which to me, personaly, just overpowers the one big diferentiator of the two possible decisions, one has the chance of maybe saving humanity, the other selfishly cuts the hopes of it by the roots.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joel's thinking wasn't that :LOL: ! Joel's thinking was just what you posted above it as your thinking.
How can u kill her when u aren't sure it will lead to a cure ! They went there to help, to give samples and leave. No father, atleast one who feels like father, could ever give away her living breathing child to a doubtful experiment happenieng in a crazed world where we don't even know if the doctors would ever be able to accomplish anything in that hopeless world with no power supplies or labs. What if bandits attack the next monute and destroy it all !!

We went there to help humanity, but there's no point in gambling with a life, that too your own child !
 
I've already said his actions are those expected of a father. That does not make them right from a self-less point of view. I'm not discussing this from an emotional level, but from a rational cold blooded one. To save Ellie's life he had to take half a dozen other lives from the FF including that of the Leader. How is this justifiable on a non selfish "but I felt like she was my daugher, wah wah" way?
 
She would have been approaching 16 by the end.

Hardly a five year old who needs a dad's constant vigilance.

Hell, in that universe, most of the other teenage girls (who there is never a hint of, for some reason, apart from Ellie's partner in crime) would already have had their own child (if not children).
 
No one was in the right. That's why I was initially a little disapointed with the outset of the game, with joel's emotional heroic act of mass murder. It felt like the typical american movie (and to some extent people, but that's another topic) manicheit logic of Absolute Good vs. Absolute Bad. And saving lifes is always in the Good. Well, what life is more worth saving, millions of strangers, or that one cute girl you have grown into?
But my point isn't even that one. I actually question Joels reasons. He didn't save Ellie thinking on her. He was thinking on HIM. The way he found to cope with the death of his daughter was by toughnig up and frozing his heart down to a ice rock. Throughout the game, Ellie progressively woke his emotions up again, by her lighthearted spirit, jokes, and insistance on touching into personal topics that Joel had avoided for years. Now that he was re-humanized, he sort of grew overly atached to Ellie almost in a parasitive way.
I say this because the way I took it, Ellie suspected her fate could be death, and was willing to do it if necessary. I've seen people say she was quiet on the last city because of the winter events. I think it was only that day, joel said "why are you so quiet today" when certanily there has been a lot of time between her David situation and them getting to that last city. Ellie says a bunch of vague stuff that points to her knowing that might be her last day. She even gives Joel's family picture back to him as if that was her last oportunity. Joel just doesn't realize it because he is too busy enjoying his new pet-daughter, and is being rather insensitive with his talk about future plans or how he wished Ellie would have liked his daughter. Her end-game speech is all about how she felt like she didn't deserve to be alive, and how many people died just so she could get to the fireflies, so she'd better be certain joel wasn't lying.
Yes the fireflights way of handling the situation was also shady and wrong. They were desperate. And yes they could end up sacrificing Ellie and not get the cure anyway. And yes Ellie didn't spell it out that she would acept going through the procedings ( which was a mistake of the FF cause if they had her sign a paper, I think she would've). But that didn't happen. Joel had to imperfect choices. Let Ellie die despite the incorrect way the FF were hadling the whole thing, and despite the fact that sucess is not guaranteed. Or Kill a bunch of people and take Ellie out without consulting her.
I think the prospect of fiding a cure, even if faint, is worth sacrificing a life on a world were life has grown this fragile. Death is really not that uncommon anymore. But most importantly, the sacrifice was worth it because Ellie though so. Joel was as desperate as the FF on his rescue. Nobody actually heard what the actual immune girl wanted to do, she was treated as 'cargo' by both. And I think that's why the ending is awsome. It's crude, sad, but real. And hell of strong.

Yes, after watching it over and over and over again.

Joel was no better than the animals that were preying on others to extend their own lives. In fact, he even implies he was basically the same as they were for some amount of time when Ellie asked him about it. He's selfish in almost the same way they were selfish.

Joel basically took away Ellie's choice in this, IMO. He robbed her of her choice to help humanity at the expense of her own life.

If you watch the end, IMO, it's obvious that Ellie knows that Joel is lying. I'd be willing to bet that Marlene (who truly cared for Ellie and her mother before her) had informed her of what was going to happen. Likely even got Ellie's consent to do it.

This isn't to say that Joel didn't react like a father. After all how many father's do something for their daughter because it's what THEY want to do, not what their daughter wants to do?

It wouldn't surprise me if after all that has happened, Ellie ends up leaving Joel because she can't stand the fact that he would lie to her, rob her of her choice in this matter, and potentially condemning many more girls like her friend to this fate (which is why she wanted to go through with it in the first place).

I liked Joel up until the last scene. I even liked him during it. I'd likely have done the same thing he did, unless I knew it was Ellie's choice (which he probably didn't). But I lost most of that when he decided to lie to Ellie. If you are going to be man enough to save her and potentially condemn all of humanity to death and potentially extinction, the least you can do is tell the truth to the person you "supposedly" care for. But instead he lied to her because he knew if he told the truth she would see him for the monster that he is.

Regards,
SB
 
We don't really know if Marlene informed Ellie about the surgery.
She was wondering why she was wearing a patient clothe in Joel's car.
If she knew about the surgery she wouldn't have asked that question.
Firefly most likely drugged her immediately after saving her from drowning.
 
Back
Top