Kojima "Blu-Ray is too small for Metal Gear Solid 4."

[Bad_Boy]

Was this kojima interview posted?
http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=94010

GP: Resistance: Fall of Man uses 22 GB [edit: recently changed to 16 GB] of Blu-ray storage. Is that necessary for next-gen development? Is that massive storage something you'll need to make MGS4?

Kojima: Right away. We'll need more.

GP: We recently spoke with Sony's Phil Harrison, who told us that he thinks PS3 games will soon use 50 GB. Do you agree with that prediction?

Kojima: Yes, I do. It's high-def, and just to make it high-def, the data requirements are huge.

Back in the days when I was working on 8-bit, 1 MB ROMs came out and I thought, "wow, great!" But it wasn't enough. When the CD-ROM came out, we thought we had so much space. But when we started to add sound, there was a lack of storage already. Even Blu-ray, I don't even feel that it expanded data so much. With cinematic, the space fills up right away. You may hear Blu-ray is huge, gigantic, 20 GB or so, but that's not really that big to us. One basic [gameplay] frame with HD and 5.1 takes up so much space that the capacity will become too small in no time. If we maintain the same level of graphics and sound as the PS2, then Blu-ray is spacious. But that's not the case.

GP: Is that intimidating for a developer to have to work with so much storage? Do you worry about being buried under a mountain of data?

Kojima: I don't care so much about the space. In the past, we spent so much time creating programs for compressing. But now, we don't have to do that so much. So in that sense, it's gotten a little easier.

GP: If you ever made an Xbox 360, would you find it difficult to work with because it uses a standard DVD?

Kojima: It's not necessarily challenging or difficult, it's just a matter of how we do it. It might be a couple of discs, or possibly a new form of dual-layer.

 

[infinity4]

there are so many articles about game sizes. does anyone know how much difference programming ability makes to size of games??? im sick and tired to get worried about 360 DVD size since im the only non-expert here

 

[Darkon]

Was this kojima interview posted?
http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=94010

Nope, thanks

 

[Shifty Geezer]

im sick and tired to get worried about 360 DVD size since im the only non-expert here

What's to worry about? XB360 has a DVD drive and games will come on DVD. At the moment it's a non-issue seeing the quality of titles appearing. If things change later on, there's nothing you can do about it. The only reason for anyone to be concerned is if they trying to choose between PS3 and XB360, and want to be sure that the disc won't be a limiting factor on XB360. And that's quite a crazy reason to choose between platforms!

 

[one]

Was this kojima interview posted?
http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=94010

Now that I've read it, is it only me to think it has different nuances from the first post in this thread?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Now that I've read it, is it only me to think it has different nuances from the first post in this thread?

It sure does, the OP made it appear as though MGS was so big that it would barely fit on a 25gb BR. Now, it's clear that even if done on 8GB dvd, MGS would be possible, it would not even be "necessarily difficult or challenging".

 

[Naboomagnoli]

It sure does, the OP made it appear as though MGS was so big that it would barely fit on a 25gb BR. Now, it's clear that even if done on 8GB dvd, MGS would be possible, it would not even be "necessarily difficult or challenging".

Actually he said that working with 8GB DVD after being used to Blu-ray would be fine. There was no reference to MGS within that context

 

[Arwin]

Actually he said that working with 8GB DVD after being used to Blu-ray would be fine. There was no reference to MGS within that context

It was more nuanced than that. He was saying that if they decided to do the game on a 360, they would adapt, either through using multiple discs, or a new dual-layer format (not sure what he means by that, maybe a clever way of using both layers), or whatever. You work within the confines of a system. And MGS4 probably isn't a massively streaming world, as he has indicated already that the game will span different locations around the world, so that these can be spread over multiple discs if needed.

 

[Naboomagnoli]

It was more nuanced than that. He was saying that if they decided to do the game on a 360, they would adapt, either through using multiple discs, or a new dual-layer format (not sure what he means by that, maybe a clever way of using both layers), or whatever. You work within the confines of a system. And MGS4 probably isn't a massively streaming world, as he has indicated already that the game will span different locations around the world, so that these can be spread over multiple discs if needed.

There's the difference: you read it as the game, I read it as a game. It's hard to tell to be fair, because the question typed up appears to be

GP: If you ever made an Xbox 360, would you find it difficult to work with because it uses a standard DVD?

Kojima: It's not necessarily challenging or difficult, it's just a matter of how we do it. It might be a couple of discs, or possibly a new form of dual-layer.

Now, assuming Kojima isn't assembling his own custom X360, the question GP ask is either in reference to an X360 port (e.g. of Metal Gear Solid), or an X360 game. Since it's not obviously defined, it's going to be another one of those "technically it's possible for MGS4 to be on X360" situations, where some people argued he meant in terms of hardware and others (such as I) took it to be speaking contractually.

 

[Arwin]

There's the difference: you read it as the game, I read it as a game. It's hard to tell to be fair, because the question typed up appears to be

The difference is moot, as he's obviously talking about solving the space problem in another way than BluRay provides, and not just saying that when we do a 360 project, we won't run out of space at all.

It might be a couple of discs, or possibly a new form of dual-layer

 

[Darkon]

With new new form of dual-layer, he probably meant FVD or EVD .

 

[Naboomagnoli]

The difference is moot, as he's obviously talking about solving the space problem in another way than BluRay provides, and not just saying that when we do a 360 project, we won't run out of space at all.

You're quite right.

 

[Undercover Cop]

For all his big talk I hope he brings back the graphics back to the TGS 05 level, as well as up the animations.

 

[infinity4]

is Kojima Productions one of most technologically advanced game programmers??? if they are in trouble surely many other devs must have a problem. i haven't heard a single companint about dvd size in games like Halo 3, GTA IV etc

 

[Darkon]

is Kojima Productions one of most technologically advanced game programmers??? if they are in trouble surely many other devs must have a problem. i haven't heard a single companint about dvd size in games like Halo 3, GTA IV etc

Do you know how to read or not ?

And as far as devs complaining about space there have been a few, Epic ,TN and few others if i recall correctly but all of them will manage by having multiple discs or do what oblivion does.

 

[infinity4]

Do you know how to read or not ?

And as far as devs complaining about space there have been a few, Epic ,TN and few others if i recall correctly but all of them will manage by having multiple discs or do what oblivion does.

i think i miswrote my point. if he is saying blu-ray is small for HD, doesn't that mean there will have to be compromises in later stages of life cycle if games are to be fit on a single disc???

 

[scooby_dooby]

i think i miswrote my point. if he is saying blu-ray is small for HD, doesn't that mean there will have to be compromises in later stages of life cycle if games are to be fit on a single disc???

Mainly what he says is that HD video eats up teh disc space very easily, which we know, 2hours of HD video can easily reach 20GB.

So, there may be comprimises, but I would assume it would mainly be in the quality of the CG.

 

[infinity4]

Mainly what he says is that HD video eats up teh disc space very easily, which we know, 2hours of HD video can easily reach 20GB.

So, there may be comprimises, but I would assume it would mainly be in the quality of the CG.

aren't CG movies now a lot more expensive to produce since move from SD => HD??? i personally don't like CG cutscenes as it makes me feel separated from the game

 

[scooby_dooby]

I don't know about the costs, but as far as my feelings on CG, in some games I like them, like FF where they are treated as a rewrad for progression, and you get to see some really sweet looking scenery and cities, and boss battles etc...but for the most part when they are simply used to further the story, I'd just as soon have realtime cutscenes. All the CG does in this case is remind you how crappy the actual game looks whenyou are finally transitioned back to realitime...

Now, the method Mistwalker has introduced, by transitioning from realtime to CG almost seamlessly is really nice, and I think is probably the perfect blend of the two. Rather than the huge disparity you usually see.

 

[dobwal]

I've just pointed out to you that most people are not aware of when a sound passes their emotional response threshold untill it passes it. In 1993, I hooked up my first affordable dolby surround system with a friend's laserdisc player, and played a super high-quality THX certified version of Terminator 2. There is this scene where you see a futuristic battlefield full of metal and skeletons. The camera settles on a skull, and you just hear the wind, and then suddenly a T2k crushes the skull under its foot. That sound is of such an incredible quality, and is so well timed and combined with the visuals, that you feel it in every fiber of your body (no, the speakers only had 60W peak output ). We tested it on a few friends we asked over, and one of them literally jumped in his seat - after six times I was watching the guys rather than the screen.

It is great. I used to record movies on tape and then listen them back on my walkman when I was a kid. You should try it sometime, it's very cool.

Anyway, I'm rambling. What is important is that on the PS2, the memory available both on the DVD and in the PS2 was very insufficient for decent quality samples. This is going to make a big difference. Most games now, also on the PSP, have decent in-game music (because they can stream this), but they are still on a budget when it comes to samples, and the machines don't have the capacity to do a lot of realtime surround processing. The Xbox did a little better in that area, because it at least had limited hardware support for that.

There are tonnes of examples where there are limitations now. The music in Final Fantasy in game still uses relatively cheap music synthesis for a lot of its background music, just because they need to save space, memory and processing power. Also, not all text can be spoken in Final Fantasy XII, simply because there's no space for it (though maybe the budget of the voicecast was limited too).

Racing games with lots of cars like GT4 (or to a lesser extent PGR and Forza) still have to rely for the most part (or even nearly all in GT4) on synthesized car-sounds, because they don't have any memory left for decent samples.

For many things right now, sound is harder to model than 3d graphics, and it is and will be taking up relatively more space as time goes on.

Nothing you describe requires massive amounts of space. I am not disputing the importance sound and its ability to invoke emotion. Nor I am disputing that implementing more elaborate use of sounds would expand our gaming experience. What I am disputing is that a bunch of uncompress sound samples is needed to create such effects.