We've utterly failed to convince to Joe Gamer of what native resolution and how inaccurate it is. Is it at all likely that the judge/jury will understand the tech and rule sanely?
KILLZONE Shadow Fall [PS4]
- Thread starter RenegadeRocks
- Start date
"Get me Olivia Pope! RIGHT! NOW!"
Character assassination is the only way forward.
Unlikely. I think the best way to do the case (if it goes forward) would be to show a video showing a 'native' 1080p gameplay segment, then the same, identical segment, but using Guerrilla's tech that takes multiple half frames to combine them into a full frame 1080p. Then display it to the jury and plaintiff and see if they can spot the difference.
IMO, part of the case has to do with that the plaintiff thinks the result caused by that tech is "blurry and subpar". However, I don't think that what is causing the MP segment to be blurry has all to do with Guerrillas tech, but is probably a combination of the 60fps and other tradeoffs for dealing with the multiplayer game. In fact, I see no reason why the tech should be causing "blurryness" - perhaps slight judder, but blurry? The resolution they are getting by merging multiple smaller resolution frames is doing a pretty effective job at creating what's in the end very close to the native 1080p version.
IMO, part of the case has to do with that the plaintiff thinks the result caused by that tech is "blurry and subpar". However, I don't think that what is causing the MP segment to be blurry has all to do with Guerrillas tech, but is probably a combination of the 60fps and other tradeoffs for dealing with the multiplayer game. In fact, I see no reason why the tech should be causing "blurryness" - perhaps slight judder, but blurry? The resolution they are getting by merging multiple smaller resolution frames is doing a pretty effective job at creating what's in the end very close to the native 1080p version.
upnorthsox
Veteran
I disagree, its the plaintiff's argument that 's hard to understand for a layman and needs extended clarification and convincing. The defendant just needs to show that, here is what leave the black box, it's 1920x1080p. What happens inside the little black box is black box stuff.
I think it's more complicated than that. Accoarding to the article, the plaintiff claims that he is not happy with the result that is being achieved - it being blurry and subpar. If they show that to the jury, they will surely see the difference between the single player game (without the effect, at 30fps) and multiplayer mode (with the effect, but at ~60fps). IMO, it will be up to Sony/Guerrilla to explain that the difference being seen and observed by the plaintiff (and the jury) is not down to their tech, but a result of other tradeoffs that were necessary for the MP gameplay to achieve 60fps.
It is Sony that said that "If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native." which contradicts their previous official statement on the PS Blog.
That's an auto-goal from Sony and a good lawyers will/should exploit it against hem.
Now Sony DID NOT inform the customers as clearly/truthfully as it should have, that's not debatable, so the question is: did they do it on purpose or not?
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No it doesn't, because their previous official statement on the PS blog never refered to the 'pipeline', but the end-result; effectively that every 30th or 60th of a second, a unique full 1920x1080 frame is being sent to the output.
It would be daft to refer to the pipeline when talking about resolution because just about every game at one stage or another uses lower resolution buffers, even if the end result is a 1920x1080p frame. For instance; If you have a racing game where the cockpit view is rendered at 1920x1080 but the side-mirrors are rendered using 320x240 and then enlarged/scaled to fit the entirety of the mirror, is the output still native 1920x1080? What about explosion and other effects that are sometimes rendered at a lower resolution and then scaled up? Shadows that appear blocky due to projection from a lower resolution object? Or a sub resolution game with full HD overlayed HUD (or reverse)?
It would be daft to refer to the pipeline when talking about resolution because just about every game at one stage or another uses lower resolution buffers, even if the end result is a 1920x1080p frame. For instance; If you have a racing game where the cockpit view is rendered at 1920x1080 but the side-mirrors are rendered using 320x240 and then enlarged/scaled to fit the entirety of the mirror, is the output still native 1920x1080? What about explosion and other effects that are sometimes rendered at a lower resolution and then scaled up? Shadows that appear blocky due to projection from a lower resolution object? Or a sub resolution game with full HD overlayed HUD (or reverse)?
I have a feeling that this law suit has very little to do with technicalities, and the verdict will absolutely have nothing to do with whether or not it's a 'real' 1080p. Especially with the way Sony has been in the news lately.
IMO is not that important whether SF MP runs at "real/native/actual 1080p" or whether the MP is "good/fun/enjoyable/payable" or not.
Sony/GG comfortably used the therm "native 1080p" several times and intentionally used resolution and frame-rate as a selling point for Shadow Fall BUT for a reason or another wasn't entirely clear/honest.
This lack of clarity/honesty form Sony's part might have been unintentional but is nonetheless dangerously close to false/misleading advertising which is all that matters to the eye of the law.
Sony/GG comfortably used the therm "native 1080p" several times and intentionally used resolution and frame-rate as a selling point for Shadow Fall BUT for a reason or another wasn't entirely clear/honest.
This lack of clarity/honesty form Sony's part might have been unintentional but is nonetheless dangerously close to false/misleading advertising which is all that matters to the eye of the law.
upnorthsox
Veteran
There's no clear definition of "native".
Maybe some good will come of this? Maybe the hearing will show there are lots of different res buffers and there's no such thing as a singular rendering resolution? Maybe then the gaming press will propagate this and then, maybe, gamers will come to understand and focus less on the numbers? Maybe?
shredenvain
Regular
That is true, but technically the multiplayer is closer to 1080i than it is to 1080p.
Don't take me the wrong way. I think the lawsuit is truly idiotic.
specwarGP2
Regular
The question for the jury isn't about whether Sony misled or not, it's going to be about what is considered to be "native 1080p."
I see you have your faith in humanity still in you.
In what way, specifically?
I'm struggling to think of an example for any graphics-heavy game with a specified output resolution with output values that are not closer to a lower standard rather than an idealized full resolution. This would be due to source buffers set as a fraction of the final resolution, LOD, depth of field, aggressive post-processing, and various techniques that can cut or interpolate variably retained data.
The algorithm put forward by Guerrilla gets a geometric color sample from every other column in a frame. Is this the one distinction a jury is supposed to make in the face of every quarter-res buffer or map, coarsely sampled/constructed background, and heavy cinematic Vaseline filter?
A non-trivial amount of math and conditional evaluation goes into the construction of the other columns in an output frame, including sourcing from a full 1080p buffer as one of the inputs.
Is this a lawsuit about not getting 1080x1920 pixels, or a disagreement on the specific shader paths and data sources used for each of those pixels?
It won't just be Killzone up against the wall if it falls to a jury to decide what rendering methods incur legal liability.
shredenvain
Regular
In the way you just described in the above quote. I'm not sure calling it interlaced is anywhere near the correct description of the method used in KZSF. I actually think it is a pretty inventive way of freeing up the resources necessary to double the frame rate while achieving pretty damn close to a native 1080p output. As posted above the lawsuit is completely unnecessary and in my opinion stupid. So if you feel that I am somehow supporting the idiot filing the lawsuit, I am not. The technique Gorilla is using just seems similar to interlacing in some ways to me. Except on the vertical as opposed to the horizontal. I know it is more complicated than that.
It doesn't double the frame-rate.
shredenvain
Regular
I know the technique doesn't just automatically double the games frame rate. It allows them to reach the target of 60fps by freeing up resources.
