Jewish temples in Constantinople bombed.

[akira888]

I only mentionned itll play to a greek audience as it will. Not that it makes anything more or less incorrect. Its incorrect because Istanbul has been in turkish hands for 500 years. And contemplating war with a large muslim but, for now, largely secular nato ally is no joke... Istanbul doesnt need to be liberated...

Turkey needs economic developpment of course which joining the EU would help as Bush would have liked to see in the run up to the war which was for bad a reason but with a good end result if it could eventually happen.

It's been in under Turkish control for 500 years, so what pax? Until the Holocaust of 1915 it was a predominately Christian city. Should the fact that the Ottomans had colonial control of Constantinople give them a moral claim to the city? That's some interesting ethics...

And why do you feel comfortable with a nation which has a worse human rights record than old South Africa or Iran into the EU? Let's just revisit its' rap sheet:

1) Active denial of the Christian Holocaust; intimidation of those than speak out about it.
2) Illegal occupation of 40 percent of Cyprus
3) Kurds can't speak their own indigenous language, lest they be thrown on Imrali Island Prison with Apo Ocalan by MIT.
4) Continued violations of Greek airspace
5) A fascist, racist ideology called "kemalism" to which all must swear allegiance, lest Imrali await.
6) More journalists in jail than any other nation-state, including China and Iran.
7) A starvation blockade of Armenia that is basically their attempt to finish off what they started in 1915.
8 ) Bombings of Kurdish villages in Northern Iraq for 12 years.

If this is record you wish to reward, so be it. But if you think this is an acceptable record, then the term "human rights" has absolutely no meaning.

Another thing: Ancyra has had a customs union with the EU (completely free trade) for 7~8 years. In that time period their economy has done nothing but spiral down into an abyss. What will full EU membership do for them that the customs union didn't? Nothing.

 

[pax]

Considering greek airspace rings the country as greek islands surround turkey thats not too surprising. The cypriot section invaded was the turkish inhabited one. Its been one of the key successes of peace keeping tho so Im not sure its as bad a situation as some think.

Yes they can improve some human rights but they are nowhere as bad as they were in the past or other countries that are also ignored.

The kurdish conflict is not clear cut they have been as brutal as turks in some instances... Im not aware there is a blockade of armenia... I saw atom egoyans movie on the subject of the holocuast of 1915 tho... no doubt it ranks up there... But in no way does it justify this late of a radical change in borders. Id rather keep improving turkish society than declare war on them for past crimes dating back that long.

I dont hate eastern xtians as you say but I do think you hate turks... And are blind to the consenquences as some israelis are of the persistent situation of the west bank and gazaa of a war with turkey...

Turkey is a large country and integration with the west isnt an easy thing to do but will take work and time. I think its an essential first step and big step in reconciliation and integration of the muslim world and the west. I dont think you should bet that any support will exist for a war on turkey. Even France agrees with you on sanctionning turkey but not nearly to this degree.

 

[akira888]

Considering greek airspace rings the country as greek islands surround turkey thats not too surprising.

Doesn't make it right.

The cypriot section invaded was the turkish inhabited one. Its been one of the key successes of peace keeping tho so Im not sure its as bad a situation as some think.

Wrong. Most of Cyprus that was invaded by the Turks was Greek. It's only the "Turkish" section now that they've imported 200000 settlers (illegal of course). Also, 160000 Greeks were ethnically cleansed out of their homes, something that wasn't even done to the Palestininans. If this is a "great success" then the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is God's Own Miracle.

The kurdish conflict is not clear cut they have been as brutal as turks in some instances

Would you say this about the Palestinian resistance as well? At least they are free to speak their own language, a basic dignity the Kurds lack.

Id rather keep improving turkish society than declare war on them for past crimes dating back that long.

It's improving? News to me.

I dont hate eastern xtians as you say but I do think you hate turks... And are blind to the consenquences as some israelis are of the persistet situation of the west bank and gazaa of a war with turkey...

This makes no sense. Turkey is the bully in this region, and yet I, just for wanting my family's land back, am an aggressor? You are correct though about me hating Turks, just as all those who criticise Israel are closet Nazis.

Turkey is a large country and integration with the west isnt an easy thing to do but will take work and time. I think its an essential first step and big step in reconciliation and integration of the muslim world and the west. I dont think you should bet that any support will exist for a war on turkey.

I want no international war with the Turkish state. I simply want the same rules applied to them that apply to everyone else on the planet. If Germany denied the Jewish Holocaust or if we denied African slavery or the extermination of the Indians the world would be up in arms with anger. Yet Turkey consistently gets a free pass...

 

[pax]

You had land in Cyprus? I can understand that then. The cyprus problem wasnt nice I know. But its already 40 years old... Im not sure where Id stand if Israel had ethnically cleansed palestinians 40+ yrears ago ... I certainly agree with Israel that Palestinaisn cant return to Israel proper where they were ethnically cleansed in some instances.

Im not familiar with all the details of what ethnic cleansing has gone on by turkey in the last few years. That kurds have been oppressed I know but few would support carving up 3-4 nations in order to create a kurdish state. Thats understandable. Itd create a lot of instability in the area and theres plenty to go around right now.

Turkish issue has not been as much in the news as its not nealry as much an irritant in east west relations and ww3 doesnt seem to be knocking at the door there every other year. Thus its normal its not getting the coverage youd like to see. I dont want to ignore issues that simmer and I dont like to ignore the suffereing elsewhere but we are dependeant on the media and political relaity of how many problems that can be addressed at one time. Certainly some diplomacy is at work in turkey in the form of the carrot (eu membership) and stick..

Lets just hope it bears fruit. But I dont think we can address old wrongs easily without compromising what stability exists in turkey already... Anymore than even the rich US can repay slaves the hundreds of billions they claim...

I wouldnt say turkey has gotten a free pass after last years german and french refusal of their demands for EU membership because of lack of better human rights.

 

[akira888]

Actually, my mother's family had land and a shop in Constantinople, and lost it all during the pogrom of 6-9-1955.

 

[L233]

This is a truly magical moment. L233 accusing me of being anti-Israel. OMFG!

I did? Where?

As for why I picked "that wording" I have always heard the word "temple" from my Jewish friends here.

Then they must be particularly liberal Reform Jews, a tiny minority. Some of them even refuse the idea of circumcision. Those are not your plain vanilla mainstream Jews.

They are apparently less obessessed with esoteric arcana than you.

That's not "esoteric arcana". If you actually have Jewish friends like you claim to then you should at least have an idea why there can only one temple. This is actually one of the main reasons why Jerusalem is so important to Jews and why the diaspora Jews have been longing for Jerusalem for so many centuries. Maybe you should aks your Jewish friends about that next time you meet them.

As for Constantinople, that's what my people called it for 1200 years before the Mongol-Turkic Invasion (and subsequent near total extermination by those same invaders).

Your point?

If Poles took Berlin, killed off nearly all the Germans there, renamed it "Berlinski," would you use that name?

If it happened 550 years ago, I doubt I would give a shit. In fact, 550 years ago north western Italy (Genoa, Sienna, Pisa etc.) were part of the Holy Roman Empire and had been for about 800 years.

For me, it is always Constantinople, and I eagerly await its liberation.

Priceless.

I eagerly await the liberation of France, most of Italy and all the Benelux states so the great Holy Roman Empire of Charles the Great can arise again in full glory!

And Corsica. Fuck, I want Corsica. Now. Chase the Frogs off that beautiful Island, along with those damn Corsican terrorists. Guess what, I am Franconian, like Charles the Great! My "people" are entitled to that! We owned it once, didn't we?

Hell, let's bring back all those cool empires. Byzantine Empire! Holy Roman Empire! The Spanish Empire! The Persian Empire, including the province of Yehud which is now called Israel! The Mongol Empire - who needs those troublemakers India and Pakistan anyway? Austria-Hungary! And retake the British Empire from those god damn rebellious colonials! Prepare to hail Tony Blair as you new Lord and Master!

 

[akira888]

L233:
Yes my friends (that I "claim" to have) belong to the Reform movement, and are extremely liberal. Not as if there's anything wrong with that.

Secondly, there's an enormous difference between the rediculous examples you cite and my people's experience. That is, there were no Germans in the Po Valley, and when Germany lost it it lost none of its homeland. Same for all of those other empires you cite; they all just lost colonies. On the other hand, during the Mongol-Turkic invasion of Anatolia from 1071-1453, my people were nearly totally exterminated by the invaders (and finished off completely in our home from 1915-1923). The relevant comparisions are the experiences of the Native Americans and Australian aborigines, not those imperial defeats you cite. Anatolia was the Greco-Armenian indigenous homeland, not some far-flung colony of ours. That, to me and to most people, is a tremendous moral distinction.

 

[Simon F]

L233, you're not thinking big enough. The reptiles want to take this planet back from these upstart mammals.

 

[Simon F]

You are correct though about me hating Turks,

Approximately how many Turks do you know?

 

[akira888]

You are correct though about me hating Turks,

Approximately how many Turks do you know?

"You are correct though about me hating Turks, just as all those who criticise Israel are closet Nazis."

Bad wording on my part Simon. I was trying to convince pax, through satire, that one could criticize a nation's government without hating a people, something he didn't quite seem to understand for some reason. :?

 

[RussSchultz]

I had an RA in my dorm when I was in college who was a Greek Cypriot. He hated Turks also.

I'm sure its related to the reason why Palestinians hate Jews so much.

 

[akira888]

I had an RA in my dorm when I was in college who was a Greek Cypriot. He hated Turks also.

I'm sure its related to the reason why Palestinians hate Jews so much.

"Also"?! Relative to whom?
You mean Palestinian hate versus Jewish love? Love that is expressed by breaking bones, bulldozing the homes of innocent peasants, confiscation of farms, torture of young children...

Anger towards a nation-state != Hate of a people, Russ. Please, try to understand that.

 

[StefanS]

L233:
Secondly, there's an enormous difference between the rediculous examples you cite and my people's experience. That is, there were no Germans in the Po Valley, and when Germany lost it it lost none of its homeland. Same for all of those other empires you cite; they all just lost colonies. On the other hand, during the Mongol-Turkic invasion of Anatolia from 1071-1453, my people were nearly totally exterminated by the invaders (and finished off completely in our home from 1915-1923). The relevant comparisions are the experiences of the Native Americans and Australian aborigines, not those imperial defeats you cite. Anatolia was the Greco-Armenian indigenous homeland, not some far-flung colony of ours. That, to me and to most people, is a tremendous moral distinction.

You pretty wrong. Austria-Hungary is a very accurate example. Austria lost southern Tyrol and Trieste to Italy, parts of eastern Austria to Hungary, etc. all having a German speaking majority... However, I see noone going rampage in Austria. Germans lost their home in Bohemia (sp?) after the 2nd world war none of them is on a killing spree. Jews were killed, slaughtered and lost their possesions I see none of them still accusing Germans / Austrians.
Forgive doesn't mean forget After 1000 yrs. maybe it's time to forgive? Face it, you're not going to get your possesions in Istambul back. Istambul is not called Constantinople any more. All your accusations will get you nothing, but bitter...

You know it's very surreal, I saw a documentation just earlier about a Palestinian family. All they were talking about was the land they possesed, how beautiful it was, how they lived of their land's wealth. They told their children, who hadn't witnessed this, just how good they had it in their dreamland and how much worse it is here, where there's no perspective. During the shooting of the film their son became a suicide bomber, killing civilians...

 

[RussSchultz]

"Also"?! Relative to whom?
You mean Palestinian hate versus Jewish love? Love that is expressed by breaking bones, bulldozing the homes of innocent peasants, confiscation of farms, torture of young children...

Anger towards a nation-state != Hate of a people, Russ. Please, try to understand that.

I'm sure it isn't a racist thing, like "all turks are inherently evil". Its a political thing, arising from what 'the turks' did in Cyrpus. Kinda like how the Palestinians feel they've been violated by the Israelis.

p.s. "Torture of young children" shows you're a bit skewed in your opinion forming.

 

[akira888]

You pretty wrong. Austria-Hungary is a very accurate example. Austria lost southern Tyrol and Trieste to Italy, parts of eastern Austria to Hungary, etc. all having a German speaking majority... However, I see noone going rampage in Austria. Germans lost their home in Bohemia (sp?) after the 2nd world war none of them is on a killing spree. Jews were killed, slaughtered and lost their possesions I see none of them still accusing Germans / Austrians.
Forgive doesn't mean forget After 1000 yrs. maybe it's time to forgive? Face it, you're not going to get your possesions in Istambul back. Istambul is not called Constantinople any more. All your accusations will get you nothing, but bitter...

You know it's very surreal, I saw a documentation just earlier about a Palestinian family. All they were talking about was the land they possesed, how beautiful it was, how they lived of their land's wealth. They told their children, who hadn't witnessed this, just how good they had it in their dreamland and how much worse it is here, where there's no perspective. During the shooting of the film their son became a suicide bomber, killing civilians...

But what other option do the powerless Palestinians have? It not as if they can roll in the mighty Palestinian army to do battle with the IDF. You do support the Intifadah right?

 

[StefanS]

You pretty wrong. Austria-Hungary is a very accurate example. Austria lost southern Tyrol and Trieste to Italy, parts of eastern Austria to Hungary, etc. all having a German speaking majority... However, I see noone going rampage in Austria. Germans lost their home in Bohemia (sp?) after the 2nd world war none of them is on a killing spree. Jews were killed, slaughtered and lost their possesions I see none of them still accusing Germans / Austrians.
Forgive doesn't mean forget After 1000 yrs. maybe it's time to forgive? Face it, you're not going to get your possesions in Istambul back. Istambul is not called Constantinople any more. All your accusations will get you nothing, but bitter...

You know it's very surreal, I saw a documentation just earlier about a Palestinian family. All they were talking about was the land they possesed, how beautiful it was, how they lived of their land's wealth. They told their children, who hadn't witnessed this, just how good they had it in their dreamland and how much worse it is here, where there's no perspective. During the shooting of the film their son became a suicide bomber, killing civilians...

But what other option do the powerless Palestinians have? It not as if they can roll in the mighty Palestinian army to do battle with the IDF. You do support the Intifadah right?

At the moment I'm rather in between. I can understand the Israeli point of view and also the Palestinian. It' s a stale-mate at the moment. The Israelis want the Palestinian to cut back on terrorists, the Palestinian can only cut back on terrorists, if their people aren't dependent any more on the welfare of the Hamas, etc... Therein lies the real problem: social goods being distributed by militant organisations who can recruit their members from people without perspective...

I don't know if there's another option. However, Mahatma (sp?) Gandhi faced a very similar situation and he didn't resort to violence...
I can understand the motives of the Palestinian people, but not their fight against civilians, that's simply not right and that's not the way to achieve anything...

 

[akira888]

I don't know if there's another option. However, Mahatma (sp?) Gandhi faced a very similar situation and he didn't resort to violence...
I can understand the motives of the Palestinian people, but not their fight against civilians, that's simply not right and that's not the way to achieve anything...

Yet from 1967-1987 this is exactly what they did and for all their morality they lived under a state of total Jewish siege, with colonists popping up all around them, with slow explusion being their long-term trajectory. Then a switch of tactics came in 1987, that took the war into the Jewish occupied areas, and all of a sudden Israel was begging for peace.

Neither did Gandhi drive the British out of India. That was the excuse the British used to cover up for the fact that they simply could not afford to police such a huge area after the end of the Second World War.

And there is also a big difference between Tyrol, Trieste, Sudetenland and one hand and the invasion of Anatolia on the other. We lost nearly all of our traditional lands; those others were all peripheral areas.

 

[StefanS]

Yet from 1967-1987 this is exactly what they did and for all their morality they lived under a state of total Jewish siege, with colonists popping up all around them, with slow explusion being their long-term trajectory. Then a switch of tactics came in 1987, that took the war into the Jewish occupied areas, and all of a sudden Israel was begging for peace.

I tend to differ; the change of methods or weapons came with the Israel invading Lebanon; driving out the PLO resulted in the formation of Hamas, Jihad and Hisbollah, who chose to brutally hunt down civilians.

The Israeli claim (security) and the Palestinian (own state and perspective) are both legitimate (noone doubts that). It's just that their actions aren't and as long as neither side does extend their hand without ulterior motive, peace will be but a dream. Somehow both sides are too proud or too afraid to make the first step. It's really sad. The Palestinian leadership has just more to lose if this conflict goes on (more lives, more broken houses, more families torn apart), they need to make the first step. Arik Sharon will go undefeated from election to election because the people feel they need him to lead the warfare, he's not the one who needs to make a rash move...

 

[L233]

Akira888, sorry, but I think you are being hysterical.

What you call a "Christian Holocaust" wasn't even a genocide, it was an ethnical cleansing. At that time (early 20th) it was generally thought that a national state could only exist with a high degree of ethnic homogeneity. It was all about ethnicity, never about religion.

In the very same time frame, Greece "cleansed" 400,000 ethnic Turks and 100,000 ethnic Bulgarians from within its borders. The Turks deported more than 1 million ethnic Greeks, the Bulgarians drove out ethnic Romanians by the tens of thousands and vice versa. And so on. It was a time of ethnic consolidation in the whole area.

In fact, there was no country that deported a bigger share of it's overall population than Greece at that time. Relatively to the total population, Greece was by far the worst offender. In total numbers it was Turkey with Greece holding the second place.

So singling out the Turks in this regard is seems pretty unfair to me. And bemoaning the loss of territory 550 years ago is outright stupid.

Empires come and go. The Byzantine Empire was an empire like every other empire. Which means it ruled with an iron fist over foreign peoples. The Byzantine Empire crumbled and was conquered by the Ottomans, who, by the way, did not depopulate Anatolia like you claim. Thus is the course of history. Lamenting the fall of your personal pet empire 550 years later is a bit pathetic, imho.

The Ottoman Empire was ethnically inclusive and religiously rather tolerant. They usually did not interfer with religious and cultural practices of the conquered peoples and they allowed a rather high degree of self governance. There were two exceptions though (Iraq and the Armenians) and in both cases it isn't even black and white, especially with the Armenians.

The distorted image of the "mongol hordes" waging a war of extinction against the unsuspecting Christian world you're painting has little to do with reality.

 

[akira888]

Akira888, sorry, but I think you are being hysterical.

I am merely pointing out facts. Are you "hysterical" when you strongly critique my nation's horrible government? Of course not.

What you call a "Christian Holocaust" wasn't even a genocide, it was an ethnical cleansing. At that time (early 20th) it was generally thought that a national state could only exist with a high degree of ethnic homogeneity. It was all about ethnicity, never about religion.

Nonsense! Every historian not on Ancyra's payroll agrees that it was a holocaust, just like the Native American one or the Jewish one. Not about religion? Then why did Taalat Pasha make a speech in Thessaloniki in 1908 ordering the slow ejection of all Christian peoples?

In the very same time frame, Greece "cleansed" 400,000 ethnic Turks and 100,000 ethnic Bulgarians from within its borders. The Turks deported more than 1 million ethnic Greeks, the Bulgarians drove out ethnic Romanians by the tens of thousands and vice versa. And so on. It was a time of ethnic consolidation in the whole area.

This was part of the Treaty of Lausanne which Kemal, not Venizelos or Mikaelian, wanted. The original plan (Trety of Sevres) which Kemal had negated was to let everyone stay in their homes.

So singling out the Turks in this regard is seems pretty unfair to me. And bemoaning the loss of territory 550 years ago is outright stupid.

Many of these terroritories were only lost to us 90 years ago.

The Byzantine Empire crumbled and was conquered by the Ottomans, who, by the way, did not depopulate Anatolia like you claim.

Not completely at invasion time, but slowly over 500 years. Or else why is Anatolia now devoid of Greeks and Armenians? UFOs?

The Ottoman Empire was ethnically inclusive and religiously rather tolerant. They usually did not interfer with religious and cultural practices of the conquered peoples and they allowed a rather high degree of self governance. There were two exceptions though (Iraq and the Armenians) and in both cases it isn't even black and white, especially with the Armenians.

It was a slave empire and any objective (id est, not bought and paid for by Ancyra) history will show you that. You could argue that South Africa, the slave holding Southerners, Israel, or the Nazis "didn't interfere with their subject peoples' cultures." But that says nothing truly meaningful about what it was like to be a common person in those empires.