Jewish temples in Constantinople bombed.

[Simon F]

I'm sure it isn't a racist thing, like "all turks are inherently evil". Its a political thing, arising from what 'the turks' did in Cyrpus

But wasn't what that done in response to what the Greeks did? It's just pointless. Last I heard the majority want Cyprus unified again and old stupid rivalries are best consigned to history books.

 

[epicstruggle]

But wasn't what that done in response to what the Greeks did? It's just pointless. Last I heard the majority want Cyprus unified again and old stupid rivalries are best consigned to history books.

Easier said then done. In my family we still are taught injustices done to our family from my grandfathers time. Its an indian thing. good luck trying to get this in the history books and nothing else.

later,
epic

 

[RussSchultz]

I'm sure it isn't a racist thing, like "all turks are inherently evil". Its a political thing, arising from what 'the turks' did in Cyrpus

But wasn't what that done in response to what the Greeks did? It's just pointless. Last I heard the majority want Cyprus unified again and old stupid rivalries are best consigned to history books.

You can take that up with my college RA.

 

[Simon F]

But wasn't what that done in response to what the Greeks did? It's just pointless. Last I heard the majority want Cyprus unified again and old stupid rivalries are best consigned to history books.

Easier said then done. In my family we still are taught injustices done to our family from my grandfathers time. Its an indian thing. good luck trying to get this in the history books and nothing else.

later,
epic

I have no problem with past injustices being remembered - if we didn't then we'd be doomed to repeat them - but trying to completely undo something that is many generations old is likely to be highly counterproductive.

 

[viscount]

Dear akira888,

I am a Turk. I am a bilingual Turk. And I am an educated Turk. Thus all the prerequisites for answering your slander are completely fulfilled. If you wish to hate me for what I am, you may, but know that I am totally indifferent about you yourself. Infact, I have numerous Greek friends both in Athens and abroad, and I know for one that not all Greeks are as ignorant and disillusioned like you. I don't mean these as insults, you really are ignorant in the analytical sense. (meaning that you are unaware or consciously uneducated about some of the core issues that you discuss) The historical facts you give are not only incorrect but some are completely fabricated.

Now, where to begin? Ah yes:

Nonsense! Every historian not on Ancyra's payroll agrees that it was a holocaust, just like the Native American one or the Jewish one. Not about religion? Then why did Taalat Pasha make a speech in Thessaloniki in 1908 ordering the slow ejection of all Christian peoples?

What is Ancyra? What on earth are you talking about? The name of the capital of the Turkish Republic is Ankara. If you had any respect and dignity about the sovereign rights, you would never call it Ancyra. Furthermore, nobody committed genocide on any Greek from Istanbul or anywhere in Turkey during the 1900-1920s. As a history minor (from the University of Virginia) I know for a fact that Greeks gradually migrated back to Greece after their war of independence. I suppose I do not have to add, that all this happens after 400 years of sovereign Turkish rule, which may account for your strong and resentful personal feelings.

This was part of the Treaty of Lausanne which Kemal, not Venizelos or Mikaelian, wanted. The original plan (Trety of Sevres) which Kemal had negated was to let everyone stay in their homes.

Again you prove that don't have the slightest clue about history. The treaty of Sevres was not about letting people stay in their homes. It was about turning the Ottoman Empire into a wholesome cake that surrounding nations could take a piece of. Because of this, Kemal Ataturk declared the War for Independence against occupying forces. Italy, France, and Britain were all amongst the nations that were driven out, either diplomatically or forcefully. I suppose I don't have to mention that the armies Greece were driven out. Infact they were driven down, on the field of battle, intothe soil of their once ancestral home near Izmir. Much like your own war for independence, we took up arms, and defended our homeland. End of story.

Many of these terroritories were only lost to us 90 years ago.

Again, I have no clue about what you're talking about. I guess you presume that you might misdirect people into your argument by lying. The territories were never yours. I am not on Ankara's payroll, and I must tell you that Greece never owned a dime-sized piece of land from Anatolia for the past 550 years. 550 years is a pretty long time to actually begin owning a piece of land wouldn't you say? Regardless, owning or birthright has nothing to do with this. The right to govern a land is through defending that land. And as far as I know, as the NATO's second largest army, the Turkish Army does a darn good job of it.

It was a slave empire and any objective (id est, not bought and paid for by Ancyra) history will show you that. You could argue that South Africa, the slave holding Southerners, Israel, or the Nazis "didn't interfere with their subject peoples' cultures." But that says nothing truly meaningful about what it was like to be a common person in those empires.

Another one of your majestic slanders. Pax Ottomanica, and the Ottoman Interior and Foreign policy is the POSTER child for cultural tolerance. Pax Ottomanica (if you do your research) states that a culture is not to be assimilated religiously, culturally or linguistically. Even though Ottomans could be as ruthless as anybody when quelling rebellions, during peace-time, there was an abundant amount of tolerance and kindness for local cultures. Infact, most of the Eastern European provinces were ruled by vassals who were directly descended from the lineage of the rulers prior to turkish invasion.

I could go on and on akira888 but frankly, I haven't the time. I don't want you to mindlessly obey or believe what I say. But please do your research, and try to look at things through a perspective. You have a beautiful country, beautiful people, and wondrous history, much like mine. I hope you are more constructive and objective in your future pursuits.

Best of luck when re-conquering Constantinople,

--Viscount[/b]

 

[akira888]

I know for one that not all Greeks are as ignorant and disillusioned like you.

I'm Greek! Wow! Never knew that. Figure not too many Greeks named "Karagozian," no?

What is Ancyra? What on earth are you talking about? The name of the capital of the Turkish Republic is Ankara. If you had any respect and dignity about the sovereign rights, you would never call it Ancyra.

Just as we all use Mockba, Roma, Nihon, Chung Kuo, Choson, Wien, Bharat and Mumbhai now instead of, respectively, Moscow, Rome, Japan, China, Korea, Vienna, India, and Bombay.
And we can start a positive trend by removing "Yunanistan" and "Ermenistan" from Turkce and replacing them with "Hellada" and "Haiyastan."

Furthermore, nobody committed genocide on any Greek from Istanbul or anywhere in Turkey during the 1900-1920s. As a history minor (from the University of Virginia) I know for a fact that Greeks gradually migrated back to Greece after their war of independence.

UVirginia offers exactly one course in Middle Eastern history at the undergrad level, which I assume you took. Not enough to give the "advantage of credentials" I'm afraid.

I suppose I do not have to add, that all this happens after 400 years of sovereign Turkish rule, which may account for your strong and resentful personal feelings.

Just as "sovereign" as Israeli rule over Palestine? Or American rule over Iraq? Or Afrikaner rule in South Africa? Chinese rule in Uyghuristan or Tibet? Fascist Japanese rule in China? Nazi rule in Poland? When one is a slave for 400 years, don't be shocked to see "resentment" build, dost.

Again you prove that don't have the slightest clue about history. The treaty of Sevres was not about letting people stay in their homes. It was about turning the Ottoman Empire into a wholesome cake that surrounding nations could take a piece of. Because of this, Kemal Ataturk declared the War for Independence against occupying forces. Italy, France, and Britain were all amongst the nations that were driven out, either diplomatically or forcefully. I suppose I don't have to mention that the armies Greece were driven out. Infact they were driven down, on the field of battle, intothe soil of their once ancestral home near Izmir. Much like your own war for independence, we took up arms, and defended our homeland. End of story.

Here is the official map the League of Nations complied showing the outcome of Sevres. Notice how all of the ethnic Turkish areas of the Ottoman state remain part of some Turkish nation, be that the "Cumheriyeti" or the "Imparatorlugu." Ethnic Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, Laz, and Arab/Assyrian areas are partioned off. Seems very fair too me, and much, much fairer than what actually happened.

Again, I have no clue about what you're talking about. I guess you presume that you might misdirect people into your argument by lying. The territories were never yours. I am not on Ankara's payroll, and I must tell you that Greece never owned a dime-sized piece of land from Anatolia for the past 550 years. 550 years is a pretty long time to actually begin owning a piece of land wouldn't you say?

Now that's just really horrible logic. Again, by those standards one could assert that Britain had a moral right to control the Subcontient. Or that Japan had ethical standing vis-a-vis the occupation of Korea. Or, and I'm sure you'll enjoy this one viscount, does Israel have a stronger claim to the West Bank than do Palestinians? I find it deeply disturbing that you find imperial rule to be a morally legitimating force. And that, more than anything I could ever say or do, proves my point.

Regardless, owning or birthright has nothing to do with this. The right to govern a land is through defending that land.

This is even more disturbing from a philosophical view. This, when read broadly, legitimizes any and all forms of imperialism under the sun. So I guess 95 percent of your countrymen disagree with your view by virtue of their opposition to the recent war with Hussein. After all, the US army has Iraq sealed pretty tight (at least externally), so I guess they have an unlimited "right to govern" that nation. Sickening.

And as far as I know, as the NATO's second largest army, the Turkish Army does a darn good job of it.

Which is why it took two weeks to establish a beachhead at Kyrenia (against a weak Cypriot National Guard ravaged by that naive idiot Makarios) when it should have at most taken four days. Which is why the PKK liberation army was able to fight for 15 years. Which is why MGK begged Israel to upgrade your M60 tanks to the Sabra standard while Greece was buying next-gen Lep-2's. Um hum.

Pax Ottomanica, and the Ottoman Interior and Foreign policy is the POSTER child for cultural tolerance. Pax Ottomanica (if you do your research) states that a culture is not to be assimilated religiously, culturally or linguistically.

The southern slave owners were "culturally tolerant." So were the Nazis in Poland and France. So are the Israelis in Palestine, and us (I'm American BTW) and the Brits in Iraq. All this "tolerance" entails is that the oppressor only cares about extracting wealth and slaves from the subject people. Not... ...the best compliment.

Best of luck when re-conquering Constantinople.

I never said I wanted a offensive war to retake the King of Cities. Milleytci Guvenlik Kurulu will likely be the ones to do the honor of starting a massive war in the Eastern Mediterrean.

But your post underscores a much more subtle fact. I, an American, not a Greek, can go on for hours about the evils of slavery, Indian genocide, government enforced racial segregation, the incineration of Dresden, Nagasaki, even blunders with the building of Iraq. However in your nation the kemalist indoctrination system paints Turkiye as forever being the saint in the region of sinners. The Seljuks brought civilization to Anatolia, the Ottomans were gentle imperialists, there was no Christian genocide, there are no Kurds or Laz in Turkey, the Rape of Cyprus was a peace mission, etc. etc. etc. It seems reasonable to me to fear a state that feels neccessary to brainwash its' people into believing that their nation can do no wrong. Why would a nation do that viscount? To justify whatever wrongs they wish to do in the future, since obviously "we're the good guys." That deep fear in my gut is what drives me absolutely insane. Nations, like people, can only improve from learning from their missteps. If you want your nation to emerge from the authoritian, third world state it is currently mired in (and you know this is true), please take these words of mine to heart. If you are happy with your nations current condition, then please feel free to laugh me off as just another wacko Armenian-American "bashing" your nation.

 

[viscount]

Just as we all use Mockba, Roma, Nihon, Chung Kuo, Choson, Wien, Bharat and Mumbhai now instead of, respectively, Moscow, Rome, Japan, China, Korea, Vienna, India, and Bombay.
And we can start a positive trend by removing "Yunanistan" and "Ermenistan" from Turkce and replacing them with "Hellada" and "Haiyastan."

You are using Constantinople in an English forum akira888, not a Greek one. Please, make sense.

Just as "sovereign" as Israeli rule over Palestine? Or American rule over Iraq? Or Afrikaner rule in South Africa? Chinese rule in Uyghuristan or Tibet? Fascist Japanese rule in China? Nazi rule in Poland? When one is a slave for 400 years, don't be shocked to see "resentment" build, dost.

Again, you're not making sense. Your examples are not during the age of expansion. Turkish rule over Anatolia has been existent since the 13th century, during which all the empires of the world invaded and conquered surrounding territories in attempts to forge empires from feudal systems. Israel in Palestine, US in Iraq, does not occur during the 13th century. If you take a look at Europe during that timeframe, you will understand that whoever had military and governing prowess, had the advantage in claiming new land. Yes the mindset itself is not exactly 21st century, but that was how the world was, and that's how most modern national borders, and border-claims evolved.

Here is the official map the League of Nations complied showing the outcome of Sevres. Notice how all of the ethnic Turkish areas of the Ottoman state remain part of some Turkish nation, be that the "Cumheriyeti" or the "Imparatorlugu." Ethnic Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, Laz, and Arab/Assyrian areas are partioned off. Seems very fair too me, and much, much fairer than what actually happened.

Of course it would seem fair to you akira888. Of course it would.

Now that's just really horrible logic. Again, by those standards one could assert that Britain had a moral right to control the Subcontient. Or that Japan had ethical standing vis-a-vis the occupation of Korea. Or, and I'm sure you'll enjoy this one viscount, does Israel have a stronger claim to the West Bank than do Palestinians? I find it deeply disturbing that you find imperial rule to be a morally legitimating force. And that, more than anything I could ever say or do, proves my point.

Umm... yes akira888, I do find that they are stronger claims. Since Palestinians do not accept Israeli rule, they battle to this day. I don't see the Greeks or Armenians fighting about anything? You value your homeland, you need to have the guts to take it back. End of story.

The southern slave owners were "culturally tolerant." So were the Nazis in Poland and France. So are the Israelis in Palestine, and us (I'm American BTW) and the Brits in Iraq. All this "tolerance" entails is that the oppressor only cares about extracting wealth and slaves from the subject people. Not... ...the best compliment.

.

Again, you're starting to be funny with insatiable demagogy. No they were not culturally tolerant. They assimilated their slaves. Most African Americans were not allowed to preserve their religions, languages or customs. Nazis were absolutely bent on preaching their own twisted version of the superior race and never gave any quarter to cultural diversity. I have no comment on US and UK in Iraq, as that situation remains to be seen.

Fact of the matter is, that the Ottoman Empire did not use anyone native as slaves in their provinces. Hungarians, Greeks, or Armenians were never treated like slaves. Armenians, Greeks etc. were some of the most prolific traders and bureaucrats in the Ottoman regime. If you object to this, give me historical evidence, because I am beginning to believe that you are making things up as you go with your inept historical knowledge.

But your post underscores a much more subtle fact. I, an American, not a Greek, can go on for hours about the evils of slavery, Indian genocide, government enforced racial segregation, the incineration of Dresden, Nagasaki, even blunders with the building of Iraq. However in your nation the kemalist indoctrination system paints Turkiye as forever being the saint in the region of sinners.

No it does not. I have bucket-loads of criticisms for my country (and for our forebearers in the Ottoman Empire). I am aware of historical mistakes and blunders we have done. I too can go on and on for hours self-criticising my nation's policies and tendencies. Don't think I am the product of a dictating society. On the contrary, I am the son of an 80 year old republic, which had its share of mistakes and misconceptions, but is far from the voracious beast that you portray it to be.

You are merciless in condemning the Turks and Turkey, that is what I am ultimately against. Pump up your tolerance, and look at things in a perspective.

The question I would ask myself, if I were you, is how YOU were indoctrinated as an Armenian-American into senselessly hating Turkey. I don't hate you. And I don't hate Armenians. I admire the fact that you try to comprehend what Turkiye and the Turkish people are. But you can't as of yet. Because you have a prejudice that has been implanted in you from your childhood.

I suggest one day, you take a trip to Turkey. Try and meet the people. Without your misconceptions or hatred, you will find that a majority of the Turks have nothing against you, or Greeks or anyone else.

Heck, you might even enjoy some fancy kebabs and raki along the way.

Best of luck,

--Viscount

 

[Joe DeFuria]

You are merciless in condemning the Turks and Turkey, that is what I am ultimately against. Pump up your tolerance, and look at things in a perspective.

Actually, I thought he made it clear that he was condemning the Turkish government (the nation-state), not the people....

 

[Legion]

i don't know about you Joe but i am rather enjoying watching certain people of this thread arguing the exact opposite position of what they argued in various palestinian debates.

Where are the leftists to bemoan the poor greeks who lost their homeland to the illegal occupations of their lands?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

i don't know about you Joe but i am rather enjoying watching certain people of this thread arguing the exact opposite position of what they argued in various palestinian debates.

Where are the leftists to bemoan the poor greeks who lost their homeland to the illegal occupations of their lands?

This is rather entertaining...particularly because I'm not involved in it.

 

[akira888]

You are using Constantinople in an English forum akira888, not a Greek one. Please, make sense.

Then I am committing an "offense" against English, not you, so pipe down.

Again, you're not making sense. Your examples are not during the age of expansion. Turkish rule over Anatolia has been existent since the 13th century, during which all the empires of the world invaded and conquered surrounding territories in attempts to forge empires from feudal systems. Israel in Palestine, US in Iraq, does not occur during the 13th century. If you take a look at Europe during that timeframe, you will understand that whoever had military and governing prowess, had the advantage in claiming new land. Yes the mindset itself is not exactly 21st century, but that was how the world was, and that's how most modern national borders, and border-claims evolved.

Again, a major divergence in our way of thinking. I am basing "right-to-live" on who actually lives on a plot of land, where you base it on you holds the whip. I think my view is more popular viscount, to say the least.
To reiterate, my complaint centers not on land lost 1000 years ago but land lost 90 years ago. I think that's fair. And just because your people held the whip over us doesn't mean you can chase us off of our land like dogs.

Of course [Sevres] would seem fair to you akira888. Of course it would.

And the reason it seems fair is because it drew borders which at least tried to mirror ethnic borders. Sick jokes like 60 percent of Kurdistan under Ancyra's control did not take place in Sevres.

Umm... yes akira888, I do find that [control claims] are stronger claims. Since Palestinians do not accept Israeli rule, they battle to this day. I don't see the Greeks or Armenians fighting about anything? You value your homeland, you need to have the guts to take it back. End of story.

I really wish we did have the guts to take our land back. But sadly our community leaders are sellouts, are people are naive babies you believe the happy tales those leaders tell them, don't worry, so on, so forth. I admire the zeal of the Palis more than anything; it's amazing! I'm a rarity, but I used to not be this way at all. An awakening incident at university three years ago created the current me, and that's all I'll ever say about that on a public board.

Again, you're starting to be funny with insatiable demagogy. No they were not culturally tolerant. They assimilated their slaves. Most African Americans were not allowed to preserve their religions, languages or customs. Nazis were absolutely bent on preaching their own twisted version of the superior race and never gave any quarter to cultural diversity. I have no comment on US and UK in Iraq, as that situation remains to be seen.

The Nazis left all conquered nations more or less alone (with the exception of Jews and Gypsies), regardless of Hitler's myths, because they were in it for power and power alone. Again, "cultural tolerance" isn't that great a compliment.
And do you honestly believe that the US will force English and Protestantism into Iraq? Good Lord viscount...

Fact of the matter is, that the Ottoman Empire did not use anyone native as slaves in their provinces. Hungarians, Greeks, or Armenians were never treated like slaves. Armenians, Greeks etc. were some of the most prolific traders and bureaucrats in the Ottoman regime. If you object to this, give me historical evidence, because I am beginning to believe that you are making things up as you go with your inept historical knowledge.

Obvious examples - the "devshrime" system. Young Christian boys [4 to 8] taken to fight against their own families (yeni ceri - "new army", or Janissery) and girls taken at the same age to Topkapi to be rape slaves for the sultan. Need I say more!?

You are merciless in condemning the Turks and Turkey, that is what I am ultimately against. Pump up your tolerance, and look at things in a perspective.

I'll stop condemning Turkey when a majority of Turks stop condemning America for the Hussein War. Promise. 8)

The question I would ask myself, if I were you, is how YOU were indoctrinated as an Armenian-American into senselessly hating Turkey.

My parents are two of the most assimilated people you will ever meet from a Near Eastern country. I was given almost no "indoctrination" as a child. My beliefs came as an adult, as the result of my own research.

I don't hate you. And I don't hate Armenians. I admire the fact that you try to comprehend what Turkiye and the Turkish people are. But you can't as of yet. Because you have a prejudice that has been implanted in you from your childhood.

As I said, my parents were little more than (brown-skinned) whitebread Middle America types. This was never discussed at all at home, ever! Sure, the massacres wee mentioned, but very seldomly. And for the fifth time, I don't hate you, I hate kemalism and the racialocentrism it nurtures!

 

[akira888]

Good Lord!

After being dragged into this interminable debate I forgot to comment about the tragedy!

What I was going to say originally after everyone posted their theories was that my theory is that these murders were done by the group "Hizbullah." Not to be confused with the Iran-backed Lebanese group of the same name, this group was formed in the early 80's by the Turkish secret police Milleytci Istihbarat Teskilati to recruit religous Kurds to fight the athiests of the Kurdish militant group "Partiya Karnataka Kurdistan," or PKK. The hope of Ancyra was that they would do this but not fight for the racialist kemalist state against their brothers. It worked at the time at helping to split the Kurds, but in recent years it has begun to backfire on the kemalists. Not only in terms of terror but also in the creation of an Islamist layer within the Kurdish populace, which is the last thing the "secular" kemalos need at this point with three-piece-suited ayatollah erdogan and rolex clad mullah gul and their smiling adelet ve kalakisma partisi followers on the march to restore the caliphate.

 

[viscount]

Ancyra? The oldest name of the town is Angora, named by the Hittites. When Greeks, Armenians, and Turks were flinging bull manure at each other, the Hittites were waging war with bronze swords. So I suggest you call Ancyra, Angora. That way after the Greeks conquer Ankara, and rename it Ancyra, the Hittites could conquer and rename Ancyra as Angora. Maybe after that intelligent monkeys could return and take down the Hittite government. But the last I heard they had a strong rivalry between the triassic puddles of ooze who also wanted Ankara since it was their birthright.

What I was going to say originally after everyone posted their theories was that my theory is that these murders were done by the group "Hizbullah." Not to be confused with the Iran-backed Lebanese group of the same name, this group was formed in the early 80's by the Turkish secret police Milleytci Istihbarat Teskilati to recruit religous Kurds to fight the athiests of the Kurdish militant group "Partiya Karnataka Kurdistan," or PKK. The hope of Ancyra was that they would do this but not fight for the racialist kemalist state against their brothers.

Again, that is incorrect. Hizbullah was not formed by the MGK, they are one of the many fundamentalist militant organizations backed strongly by Syria and Iran, who would much prefer Turkey to be in a state of indefinite turmoil. Furthermore, the MGK is not the Illuminati-type organization you make it to be, it is nothing but an official National Security Council for communication between the Army, President and the Prime Minister. The 80s government DID create secret organizations for battling PKK, but they never turned into Hizbullah. Infact they morphed into organized crime later on, who became a headache for the government. Either you're reading your Turkish news from a tabloid, or you need to slow down with the ephedrin.

The more I read what you've written, the more I think you are a misled young man who has been molded into a perfect acolyte for the Armenian lobby.

I hope you have a good time reclaiming the lost heritage of your glorious Ermeni past, because let me tell you, if you truly feel like a patriotic Ermeni, go to Ermenistan and do something useful, because it's crumbling. Quit sitting in your comfy Texan home, and go to your homeland. Maybe then you will irrefutably understand that you are all talk, and no action. Much like the entire Armenian lobby in the United States.

--Viscount

 

[pax]

Because unlike you we dont generalize Legion... Its a case by case basis and what human rights issues are still present today in Turkey need to be addressed of course as there are issues as such in dozens of countries. But of course we dont drag in Turkey in a palestinian thread as it not relevant...

 

[akira888]

Ancyra? The oldest name of the town is Angora, named by the Hittites. When Greeks, Armenians, and Turks were flinging bull manure at each other, the Hittites were waging war with bronze swords. So I suggest you call Ancyra, Angora. That way after the Greeks conquer Ankara, and rename it Ancyra, the Hittites could conquer and rename Ancyra as Angora. Maybe after that intelligent monkeys could return and take down the Hittite government. But the last I heard they had a strong rivalry between the triassic puddles of ooze who also wanted Ankara since it was their birthright.

If a Hittite (one of the Indo-Euro tribes that eventually consolidated into Armenia) wants to call it Angora that's fine by me. In fact viscount, I'll start calling it that right now! ANGORA!
And Turks and Armenians never met until 1071, Manzigerd. Your ancestors were from Northern Siberia, viscount, how they would fight Armenians is beyond me. :?

Again, that is incorrect. Hizbullah was not formed by the MGK, they are one of the many fundamentalist militant organizations backed strongly by Syria and Iran, who would much prefer Turkey to be in a state of indefinite turmoil. Furthermore, the MGK is not the Illuminati-type organization you make it to be, it is nothing but an official National Security Council for communication between the Army, President and the Prime Minister.

You could have also added, but you did not, that it is also the supreme power in Angora. Calling it a "communication layer" is something of, to be soft, an extreme misnomer.

The 80s government DID create secret organizations for battling PKK, but they never turned into Hizbullah. Infact they morphed into organized crime later on, who became a headache for the government. Either you're reading your Turkish news from a tabloid, or you need to slow down with the ephedrin.

Did I buy this ephedrin from Abdullah Catli in Susurluk, viscount?

The more I read what you've written, the more I think you are a misled young man who has been molded into a perfect acolyte for the Armenian lobby.

I stay away from that f-cking lobby like the bubonic plague. Why? Because as I have already mentioned they are a pack of worthless hypocrites who do nothing except attend cocktail parties and fundraisers and build their professional reputations on the backs of 80 year old grandmothers who pinch pennies to give to those clowns (start with Van Krikorian and work down the list). And the bulk of the populace isn't much better prepared. Neither has the mental strength the Palis have or even one percent of it for that matter. None are "battle ready."

I hope you have a good time reclaiming the lost heritage of your glorious Ermeni past, because let me tell you, if you truly feel like a patriotic Ermeni, go to Ermenistan and do something useful, because it's crumbling. Quit sitting in your comfy Texan home, and go to your homeland.

And I am to assume that the starvation blockade you and your Azeri allies have on Armenia on 90 percent of its borders has nothing to do with this? Or how about 80 years of Soviet occupation after 800 years of Turkish occupation after 200 years of Persian and Arab occupation? And look at your nation - its had all the advantages. Huge land mass, sponsorship by the West, Western tuteluge in governance, relatively free markets in some areas, and most of all NOT DOMINATED BY A SUPERIOR POWER! And yet, you are not even as weathly as many ex-Communist states with no such advantages. Your nation is crumbling too, why don't you go home and fix your nation? I live in mine and wouldn't trade it for any other. My second loyalty is to my extended family; not to a foreign state like the Yerevan regime.

Maybe then you will irrefutably understand that you are all talk, and no action.

Do you honestly want me to take "action?" Or would you prefer dialogue. I wouldn't go around beating your chest daring us to take action. Because "action" to me means one thing and one thing only. Or would you like an Armenian Ocalan to deal with? (Or didn't I read in Hurriyet that the real Abdullah Ocalan was Armenian named Hakop Ekmekciyan, I get so confused... )

 

[hey69]

Why are Greeks so more Bitter over Turks then the other way around?

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene ... hug you Akira! 8)

 

[akira888]

Why are Greeks so more Bitter over Turks then the other way around?

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene ... hug you Akira! 8)

Damn you hey69, just as this abortion was ready to roll off the front page (as it sailed to the bottom I smiled) you had to revive it.

As for your question, just think about it for a second. Did the Turks ever live under sadistic Greek rule, their daughters taken away to be rape slaves, their sons taken away to be killing machines (to them their own families even), their lands stolen, treated, in general, as slaves? The whitewash the Western world has given Turkey is amazing. No one would ask "Why are blacks so much more bitter than whites" or "Why are Palestinians so much more bitter than Israelis" You would be laughed at if you asked that. Yet noone knows about the horror the Turk perpetrated in their colonies, many of which suffer to this day as a result of it. And don't go around saying "ne multu turkum diyene*," unless you think fascist/racist sayings are acceptable.

* - "What happiness it is call oneself a turk" - motto of the fascist, racist, totalitarian turkish state, coined by the genocidal monster kemal himself.

 

[hey69]

and why shouldn't i be saying "ne multu turkum diyene

what's that to do with Fascism? I'm proud to be a Turk like everyone else can be proud of his nationality.

 

[viscount]

I've decided that akira888 is a self-victimizing, warmongering, manga-nerd who probably has less bright ideas than a burnt out 10 watt lightbulb left over from the industrial revolution.

Not to mention a magnificent inferiority complex, that gets himself off whenever he slanders Turkey.

Ne mutlu Turkum diyene akira.

Eat your heart out.



--V

 

[akira888]

I've decided that akira888 is a self-victimizing, warmongering, manga-nerd who probably has less bright ideas than a burnt out 10 watt lightbulb left over from the industrial revolution.

Not to mention a magnificent inferiority complex, that gets himself off whenever he slanders Turkey.

Ne mutlu Turkum diyene akira.

Eat your heart out.

Wow. Yet again I've "slandered" your wonderful "Cumheriyeti" yet you refuse to say what these "slanders" are specifically. Come on, don't be such a little kiz and say what you feel my "lies" are. Once again, I'm waiting.

And when it comes to warmongering or whining, we have nothing on you proud turkuler.