Japanese developers comment on X360 development

[Acert93]

Well I'm not saying it's particularly bad, just assuming it'll be OK yield if not fantastic for the comparison with RSX

I don't think it will be fantastic, but I think with ATI's approach they will be closer in cost than they would have been with a single chip design (which is only 10% bigger to begin with). I admit the GPU on the 360n will probably be more expensive, although the advantages in yields with two smaller redundant part is interesting.

ATI noted that both the Core and the Daughter Core had redundancy. So 2 smaller cores with redundancy should get better yields than 1 larger core (even if it has redundancy as well). Per wafer you should get more chips with the 2 die design (but additional costs as well). Of course any gains in die production will be offset (and then some) by packaging, shipping, etc. I just wanted to note that the GPU size differences may not be as significnant at first glance.

As for ATI, not all the next gen chips have had problems. It was noted that a couple were fine on the first spin, including Xenos. Xenos was the chip that made them confident for going 90nm in one shot... so if Xenos had issues then that makes little sense.

The other issue is Xenos is 500MHz, while R520 is predicted to be in the 700MHz range. The flip side is RSX is aiming at 550MHz, when the current G70 is at 430MHz. Now some of the extreme edition cards are all the way up to 490MHz, so it seems 550MHz should be attainable at 90nm. But higher clocks usually mean less yields as well. So it would seem the 500MHz Xenos is a pretty conservative design compared to the R520!

 

[randycat99]

I don't believe the lack of HDD is the end of the world, I don't even believe it will have a large impact on the games. I simply defend inclusion off a HDD on principle, and also think it would help X360 compete with a seemingly overpowering PS3.

This is getting a bit silly, isn't it? You are defending the inclusion of HDD on principle alone? What's the point? Either the component justifies itself based on the size of its impact or it doesn't. You just cited in your own words that you believe the impact on games will not be large. We also have you on record with 2 points demonstrating an apalling lack of understanding about harddrive specs (interface speed does not equal media speed and data throughput is not constant). This is not a bash on you, but just a kindly reminder that maybe it isn't such a good idea to set out to defend something which you don't even understand that well how it works. Others who do have a better understanding of harddrives have already expressed that the potential performance benefits are not as profound as you expect, given the effective specs. They may also notice that in that light, it really doesn't warrant such vigorous defense. That should give you some cause for reconsideration, imo.

 

[Acert93]

Thanks Randy... you said it better than I

Anyhow, there are a dozen threads on the HDD. Lets get back to the Japanese developer comments

 

[Inane_Dork]

On-topic: Is it me or does it seem like the Japanese devs don't know how to handle shaders?

I've noticed for some time that they are generally averse to such things. Why, exactly, I don't know. What they lack in surface detail they seem to make up for in modelling and animation detail, though.

One possible reason is that most of them have been PS2 exclusive for so long that they're not used to thinking in terms of shaders.

 

[Sis]

Thanks Randy... you said it better than I

Shush, Acert--I'm totally digging your posts, long winded they might be . You have a greater patience than I for re-iterating the basics of the argument and making reasonable claims.

But mckmas!

On-topic: Is it me or does it seem like the Japanese devs don't know how to handle shaders?

What on earth does this mean? Did I miss something?

.Sis

 

[Acert93]

I've noticed for some time that they are generally averse to such things. Why, exactly, I don't know. What they lack in surface detail they seem to make up for in modelling and animation detail, though.

One possible reason is that most of them have been PS2 exclusive for so long that they're not used to thinking in terms of shaders.

This is one advantage of having a development group within a company working on PC titles. With the close PC-Console ties pretty much established now it makes sense.

PC devs have had access to SM3.0 since last year and have been working with SM2.0 shaders since ~2001. Before that they had PS1.4. A dev house that has put out a title or two with SM2.0 shaders would have a bit more experience and, in the least, some usable techniques and libraries to soften the transition blow. Of course Console-only developers focus MUCH more on maximizing a platform and learning the ins and outs, whereas PC-Console developers are frequently worried about portability.

I also wonder if the shift in the market, and where the hardware is being designed (and with who in mind) has an effect. Traditionally consoles were built by Japanese companies typically with chips designed inhouse or by other Japanese companies. Obviuosly consoles are borrowing more from the PC side, which tends to be more American/European centric and caters to the way US developers design software. I could be wrong, but I would not be surprised if many factors like this impact the market.

That said Japanese dev houses made some of the best looking games on the Xbox and GCN last gen. Any issues are more due to familiarity than anything else.

 

[mckmas8808]

But mckmas!


What on earth does this mean? Did I miss something?

.Sis

My bad I should have added the quote that made me ask that. Look below.

But bringing the high, pre-rendered quality polygon models into real-time action isn't as easy as it sounds, explains Uchida. "The method in making high quality polygon models that only needed to be used in specific movie scenes, were different from the low-quality polygon models that can be seen from any direction during the game. We don't have the technical know-how yet. So, for our project, we've got a mix of staff that traditionally made the in-game models, and those who worked on pre-rendered movies. We sometimes have both of them working on the same processes to see which side is better at that particular job."

I mean he actually says "We don't have the technical know-how yet." Thus the question.

 

[V3]

I don't see any PC titles on their website. I have never played one of their games, but I wonder how their load times are?

They do have PC titles, but its Japanese only.

 

[Inane_Dork]

What on earth does this mean? Did I miss something?

My mind is playing tricks on me or one of the quotes that got hacked out was from a Japanese developer who watched the PGR3 video from the Xbox Summit and felt a little incapable. I guess whatever game he is/was working on did not come close to the detail he saw because of the difference in the tech they were using. If someone else could confirm my sanity, I'd appreciate it. If not, well, I understand.

 

[Bohdy]

Seems to me that he is referring to the fact that the dev team has never had to deal with APS (aka "Polybump") before, and they are having trouble adjusting their usual modelers to it.