Its not just me, games used to be better

[techuse]

A part of this issue that gives this impression is people are only selectively remembering the best experiences and games from the past other then some very notorious failures.

For everyone that thinks everything in the past was so rosy you should actually go back and look at the release lists and articles of what was being hyped and realize just how much forgettable to junk was actually released.

Even quite a few of the what would be considered bad/forgettable games nowadays have their own cult following pushing them as something they weren't. I don't want to side track down that road but like C&C Renegade for instance (just off my head since I posted in that thread on here somewhat recently), that would be the type of high profile game people would be trashing nowadays but you'd think it was some sort of hidden gem from yesteryear with some of the cult nostalgia.

Not to mention a lot of circular history rehashing itself. Online GaaS games today and the hysteria over them displacing everything from the market started happening way back once broadband started going into homes. Do people not remember the MMORPG wave for instance? Bringing up games like Quake 3 and UT is also interesting as those had no story driven SP component and were primarily MP driven. Starcraft's legacy is primarily driven by it's online component.

I'm also not sure where this "agency" issue is about. E-sports and competitive gaming is much bigger (including mainstream interest) than in the dawning days of UT/Quake/Starcraft. If anything gaming is more player agency driven now, as there is a large audience that primarily and/or only cares about competitive gaming over any type of crafted/curated developer driven SP game.

There were always bad games, that goes without saying. I'm comparing the good games of the past to the "good" games of today and it isn't close.

I don't see why lacking an SP component matters here. Nor do I see why a game having its legacy on the MP component negates anything.

The market for E-sports being bigger doesn't at all translate to games having more agency. The most popular game is over 20 years old. That says a lot.

The thing is, they are not worse, the same way the Beatles were not worse than the music that came before them, regardless of what our grandparents would tell our parents.
Some might not be to our preference, most are not intended for us anyway, (the same way our grandparents were not the "target audience" for the Beatles).

Thinking out loud,
Art is cyclical by nature, and at some point what was considered old will come to the forefront again, either in its pure form, or in a form of fusion to take something else forward.
Because of the nature of the internet and the excess of information, many genres across all forms of art, are experiencing a revival of sorts, (even for that infant we call video games) there is "boomer shooters".
Video games (relatively to anything else) are so new of an art form.
They certainly need more time and I personally like to see their future in an optimistic way.


Can you please define that term?
Because in my mind, (and I might be interpreting the term wrongly) games never really did have any agency.

Gameplay agency is the ability for the player to be in control and make meaningful actions to influence the outcome.

 

[Daozang]

Gameplay agency is the ability for the player to be in control and make meaningful actions to influence the outcome.

In such broad terms, you can advocate both ways...
The way I see it, the outcomes should be limited but more importantly, curated, by default.
Even in a sandbox, where things are less defined, you should, at best, have the illusion of agency.

I would also argue, that gameplay agency (regardless of it being an illusion or not), is not the de facto end goal of the medium as a whole.
There is (thankfully) room for many things in this medium.

 

[mr magoo]

Split/Second Velocity ?
View attachment 13390

Sorry my memory playing tricks on me

‘Split Fiction’ Is The Most Fun I’ve Had With A Video Game In Years

Split Fiction is a game bursting with creativity and endless fun that's at once technically impressive and astonishingly clever at every turn.

www.forbes.com

 

[techuse]

In such broad terms, you can advocate both ways...
The way I see it, the outcomes should be limited but more importantly, curated, by default.
Even in a sandbox, where things are less defined, you should, at best, have the illusion of agency.

I would also argue, that gameplay agency (regardless of it being an illusion or not), is not the de facto end goal of the medium as a whole.
There is (thankfully) room for many things in this medium.

It should be the de facto goal of the medium as a whole in general. There will be exceptions for games that are heavily narrative driven, but even those should strive for maximum gameplay agency within the limitations the story imposes on them. Today's games offer a minimum amount of gameplay agency across in all genres. Two recent examples I will put forth are Mario kart 8 and Marvel Rivals. Both games are filled to the brim with design choices that purposely take away your ability to make decisions that influence your outcomes. Now Mario Kart has always had an element of this, but it's been pushed so far in MK8. In PVP 1st person shooters it has no place whatsoever.

 

[see colon]

There will be exceptions for games that are heavily narrative driven, but even those should strive for maximum gameplay agency within the limitations the story imposes on them.

Why should they strive for that? Shouldn't the artist decide what they should strive for, not the consumer of said art?

 

[techuse]

Why should they strive for that? Shouldn't the artist decide what they should strive for, not the consumer of said art?

Because gameplay is what makes games fun.

 

[see colon]

Because gameplay is what makes games fun.

But agency isn't gameplay.

 

[techuse]

But agency isn't gameplay.

It is a critical aspect of gameplay to me. What is gameplay to you?

 

[Daozang]

What is gameplay to you?

A goal, a set of rules, and the means to achieve said goal.

 

[see colon]

It is a critical aspect of gameplay to me. What is gameplay to you?

"The characteristic way in which the action of a game (such as a video game) occurs or is experienced."
Agency isn't mentioned in the definition.

House of the Dead has very little agency. While you can make some choices that determine the path you take, but they all end up in the same place. It's regarded as one of the best games in it's genre.
Rock Band/Guitar Hero is essentially a repeating set of pass/fail tests that give no branching paths. The only time the player has any real agency is when the guitar solos happen. There is no story, no lore, no moral choices. They are some of the best games of all time.

 

[trinibwoy]

Because gameplay is what makes games fun.

It is a critical aspect of gameplay to me. What is gameplay to you?

No it isn’t. You’re generalizing your personal preference.

Agency comes in many forms. Depending on my mood I find games with lots of agency very stressful. I don’t want to worry if I’m going to miss some hidden area or some dialogue branch. I don’t want to ponder which of 50 side missions I should play next. Sometimes I just want to experience the experience. Even in linear games you often have agency in the form of which weapons to use or stealth vs action etc.

I think I’ve only played one game with almost zero agency - Dear Esther a quintessential walking simulator. Even then you could choose your pacing through the story.

 

[tuna]

House of the Dead has very little agency. While you can make some choices that determine the path you take, but they all end up in the same place. It's regarded as one of the best games in it's genre.

I would claim House of the Dead has a lot of agency. You can decide what enemy to shoot, which part of that enemy you want to target, when to reload and a lot of other stuff. What makes HotD interesting is the time limit of your action and the graphical feedback you get when you shoot stuff.

 

[iroboto]

That, and the fact that, the new generations will inevitably say the same about future games...
It's like Star Wars.
Original trilogy generation didn't like Ep 1-3.
The kids that saw those movies at the theater on the other hand, love them, and, surprise surprise, don't like the new ones.
In my opinion, it's us, not the games/movies etc.

Yea it’s absolutely true. Except the new ones are universally bad. You can tell that the next 3 were not planned together properly creating a very awkward storyline.

 

[iroboto]

If table top pen and paper the ultimate form of player agency, then we shouldn’t play anything else.

It’s seems reductive. I look over to the boardgame golden age which is still going, and I wouldn’t say there is more or less agency than before. Game design is certainly moving at a break neck pace in the boardgame world, I think without a doubt the older board games cannot compare.

That says a lot about how powerful nostalgia can be. Go back to play Monopoly, Risk, Sorry, Trouble, Clue and Mouse Trap and you’ll shake your head. Catan was the golden child for so long and I can’t ever go back to something so basic.

I think games are better than ever now, but if you’re in an older age group your tastes have changed dramatically. I still consider star control 2 one of the best games ever made, but you’ll never catch me playing it.

I’m sure many people will consider Halo 1-3 the best series ever made, and very dee people still play it. Modern games solve the issues plaguing older titles. That’s generally what happens.

I’m sure given a choice between Deus Ex and Cyberpunk2077, most people would rather play Cyberpunk. We just know so much more about game design now.

 

[see colon]

I would claim House of the Dead has a lot of agency. You can decide what enemy to shoot, which part of that enemy you want to target, when to reload and a lot of other stuff. What makes HotD interesting is the time limit of your action and the graphical feedback you get when you shoot stuff.

You can't even control where you look. You have about as much agency as you do in Sewer Shark or Mad Dog McCree. You are conflating agency with the gameplay, which is "The characteristic way in which the action of a game (such as a video game) occurs or is experienced."