Itagaki talks about X360/next-gen hardware

[Titanio]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/01/news_6128504.html

Some interesting comments:

When asked about the console's triple-core IBM PowerPC processor design, Itagaki called it a "buffed-up Sega Saturn," as the old console was also multi-processor, coming with two, 32-bit CPUs. He said that a single-CPU machine is easier for programming, but multi-core structures have become the recent trend.

"The Xbox 360 is said to be a machine that's easy to develop for, but that's because it has a good line-up of middleware and infrastructure. So it should be easy to create something that's up to a certain level [of quality]. But if you try to take advantage of the Xbox 360’s full hardware specs, you'll find out about the difficulty in programming for a multi-core machine," said Itagaki.

He said he would have preferred if Microsoft adopted the high-capacity HD-DVD format, but said, given the next-gen disc format wars, he could live with Microsoft's decision.

"Another reason why [Microsoft] went with the 9GB DVD format (dual-layered DVDs can contain up to 9.4 GB) is that American and European developers tend to use real-time rendered cutscenes. But Japanese developers use a lot of pre-rendered cutscenes, so the DVD format brings a bit of an anxiety. The screen resolution for Xbox 360 games will be in high definition, so the pre-rendered movies are going to be pretty large. If we encoded the Dead Or Alive 4 trailer from E3 in high definition in a quality acceptable to us, it will easily be about 2GB. With DOA4, we'll be using the disc's capacity to its full extent. We started development on DOA4 pretty early, and we didn't know what disc format the Xbox 360 was going to adopt. So when we learned about it, we were really knocked out".

When asked for his opinion on the PlayStation 3, Itagaki commented that he respects the fact Sony is trying to "create a computer that comes from Japan." However, he also added that he hopes Sony will make a machine that actually runs according to its listed hardware specs. "A machine that doesn't run according to its promised CPU frequency is out of the question," he said.

I think he's the first dev to complain about the media on X360. I also wonder if he's heard anything specifically about PS3 and clockspeeds..or if he's just being sceptical until he sees final hardware.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Interesting point about the cutscenes. Won't bother anyone here but I wonder how it'll impact the Japanese market and devs? Or will they give over to in-game cutscenes, especially now the visual advantage of realtime isn't so great.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

I think he's the first dev to complain about the media on X360

Yeah, but his complaint is perfectly valid. I don't know if I mentioned it before on this forum or not, but basically, the DVD-9 format is fine for game content alone for a good while. But FMV? Hell no. The 720p minimum requirement, mind you applies to FMV as well.

especially now the visual advantage of realtime isn't so great.

Well, in practice it means that you're not going to see something like a Final Fantasy on 360 (FF11 going the MMO route notwithstanding). And in a setting like that, there's no question that the visual advantage of rendered over realtime is immense. Not just because pre-rendered can give you extra added quality to the render, but because pre-rendered can apply that quality over EVERYTHING. Sure we can render two characters in DOA-land with 12 shader passes if we wanted, but can we do the same for a gigantic cityscape view covering some 400 square miles down to the point where you can still see the leaves on a tree in the distance?

 

[jvd]

Yeah, but his complaint is perfectly valid. I don't know if I mentioned it before on this forum or not, but basically, the DVD-9 format is fine for game content alone for a good while. But FMV? Hell no. The 720p minimum requirement, mind you applies to FMV as well.

We've talked about it before .

Some of us think fmv should be gone next gen. I've personaly said i don't like the fmv in games as it distracts me from the game and takes me out of it .

But anyway you have a 9 gb disc which costs what 10 cents to make ? Just use 2 discs ! For a fighting game it might not work but for a rpg it should work fine

Well, in practice it means that you're not going to see something like a Final Fantasy on 360

Why not ? We saw ffs on the psone , they just used more than 1 disc . In a 40 hour game changing the disc once or twice isn't the end of the world and going multi disc may actually be cheaper than going with one brd .

 

[Sis]

I think he's the first dev to complain about the media on X360

Yeah, but his complaint is perfectly valid. I don't know if I mentioned it before on this forum or not, but basically, the DVD-9 format is fine for game content alone for a good while. But FMV? Hell no. The 720p minimum requirement, mind you applies to FMV as well.

(Accent mine.)
That's interesting, since I would expect the cutscenes could look great without 720p. I base this on having watched several CG films, such as FF:TSW, Monster Inc, the Incredibles, on my native 720p DLP tv through a progressive-scan, non-upscaling DVD player, and they looked flawless.

.Sis

 

[Qroach]

I still think MS will switch to HD-DVD before it's said and done. or release on one format and offer an upgrade for the early adopters. I just have this feeling you can easily take the DVD drive out of the xbox 360, and it's part of the reason they designed the face plates like they did.

So if a DVD drive fails, they could sell a replacement that can be "easily" installed by anyone that understands how to install a PC DVD drive. Probably a screwless installation too. Aside from the harddrive which could be replaced easily now that it's an external attachment, the DVD drive is the next likely thing to go bad in a console. Imagine, you DVD drive goes bad and you don't need to send the entire unit in for repair or warrenty (or worse, buy a new machine).

has it crossed anyone's mind why we haven't seen an xbox 360 shot without the face plate attached?

 

[jvd]

I still think MS will switch to HD-DVD before it's said and done. or release on one format and offer an upgrade for the early adopters. I just have this feeling you can easily take teh DVD drive out of the xbox 360 since it's part of teh reason they designed the face plates like they did.

So if a DVD drive fails, they could sell a replacement that can be "easily" installed by anyone that understands how to install a PC DVD drive. Probably a screwless installation too.

has it crossed anyone's mind why we haven't seen an xbox 360 shot without the face plate attached?

An sata optical drive ? that would be a first

 

[Qroach]

? what do you mean? you can buy a sata dvd drive right now...

...but over all I think doing something like htis would be sweet and I have my fingers crossed. MS would save so much cash on repairs and I'd love to have the option.

 

[jvd]

Really ? I was looking for a dvd burner a few months ago and couldn't find any sata drives .

Anyway i guess they can do it like they did with the hardrive

 

[Titanio]

I think as far as games are concerned, HD-DVD or Bluray would only be of use if it were there from day one. Even if the drive were upgradeable at no cost, MS can't guarantee everyone with a DVD drive will upgrade. It'd be a very very messy solution.

I think they'll only provide an optional upgrade if hi-def movie playback becomes a large point of interest for consumers.

 

[jvd]

The only other thing that can happen is if toshiba gives ms a deal they can't pass up on the hd-dvd drives for launch .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sure we can render two characters in DOA-land with 12 shader passes if we wanted, but can we do the same for a gigantic cityscape view covering some 400 square miles down to the point where you can still see the leaves on a tree in the distance?

Having seen the FFVII Cell demo at E3 I can't see that the huge extra cost of prerendered scenes would be an advantage. Anime -maybe, but why shell out on months of raytracing when in-engine can produce very passable results (E3 demo) with the already created engine.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Really ? I was looking for a dvd burner a few months ago and couldn't find any sata drives .

The only one I've seen do them is Plextor. There are probably others but they certainly aren't mainstream yet.

 

[jvd]

Really ? I was looking for a dvd burner a few months ago and couldn't find any sata drives .

The only one I've seen do them is Plextor. There are probably others but they certainly aren't mainstream yet.

thanks dave i ended up getting a 16x nec model with 2.4x dual layer right on both formats . Don't eally do much dual layer stuff (too expensive ) was like 60

 

[therealskywolf]

Meh, if its a RPG there's no problem in coming in multiple discs (PSx games FF had 4 cds remember? There was no prob about it), in a fighter, how many CG do they plan to create?

I myself prefer Realtime rendered, MGS is amazingly cinematic and Immersive because it doesnt use CG, games that suddenlly switch to CG tend to put me out of the immersion, at least for some moments.

THe majority of stuff can now be done in realtime with next gen, CG should only be used for the "World exploding" and stuff like that that clearlly isnt possible real time.

 

[Inane_Dork]

At least based on the sample videos from MS's WMV HD page, 2 GB is enough for 25 minutes of 1080p video. 2 GB is enough for 42 minutes at the lowest bitrate they have there, which is for 720p.

And like someone else pointed out, CGI clips can be at lower resolutions than 720p and still look great. Considering that I can look at basically every CGI clip in an Xbox game and tell it's been highly compressed, WMV stuff should blow away what I'm used to.

Also, one might wonder how Japanese developers fit their games on the GC's 1.5 GB discs.

 

[deathstar121]

Perfect example of why in game cinematics is better than FMV, look at GTA:SA, if they had all those scenes in FMV it would be a short game or, it would take up the entire 9 gig DVD, in game cinematic is better because dev can do more, tell a bigger story, with CGI development takes longer, rendering a scene on the engine is much better.

 

[Pozer]

I find the comparison to Sega Saturn the more interesting remark. I guess that could be construed as a rip on the 360. I don't remember how the Saturn faired in Japan though. I think it was somewhat successful. That sort of relates to KKs remark about the 360 competing with the ps2. The Saturn seemed to be designed to compete with the Snes and be ultimate 2d game system when 3d was where the industry was headed.

 

[Dural]

I'm pretty sure Itagaki quite liked the Saturn, DOA first appeared on the Saturn and the Saturn version of DOA is included in DOAU.

 

[Brimstone]

I find the comparison to Sega Saturn the more interesting remark. I guess that could be construed as a rip on the 360. I don't remember how the Saturn faired in Japan though. I think it was somewhat successful. That sort of relates to KKs remark about the 360 competing with the ps2. The Saturn seemed to be designed to compete with the Snes and be ultimate 2d game system when 3d was where the industry was headed.

In the Saturn days, Yu Suzuki made a famous remark about how one fast cpu would be perferable than two slower cores. It caused a lot of controversy. His Saturn reference is more about the difficulty of writing code for a multi-core CPU.

I guess Itagaki see's a parallel between himself with Team Ninja/DOA 4 and Yu Suzuki and Virtua Fighter 2/AM2.