Is Steam good for dev profitability *spawn

I'm not sure what you mean. COD and Far Cry were AAA PC games long before they showed up on consoles. If you're referring to the recent COD success on consoles I don't think Steam discounts affect those purchases at all. If you want to play COD on Xbox with your Xbox buddies Steam isn't really a factor.

Yeah, I mean their success on consoles (I played all of those on PC). The most common complain I here when playing online is the 'consolification' of PC games...most prominant example being the COD games which peaked with COD4 on PC and since then devs seem to not really care about the PC versions...I always wondered if this is a sign that money is made on consoles and not on PC?!? Why don't devs optimize games for PC but invest all their budget to optimize as much as possible for consoles?

Note: I am wondering, I don't know the answer. But it could very well be that Steam sales et all make PC more to an afterthought than the primary target.
 
Note: I am wondering, I don't know the answer. But it could very well be that Steam sales et all make PC more to an afterthought than the primary target.

PC game revenue is greater than consoles. Very unlikely.

There is so much info out there on the exposure that Steam sale bring to titles, sure there may be the odd dev that doesn't like it, but overwhelmingly its a positive. Not only is PC game revenue greater than consoles, reports recently point to 92% of it being digital so there is less value lost through the food chain in the first place.
 
That PC game revenue figure includes various 'free to play' and MMO titles though. For the subset of console-like games, is it really more profitable? Publisher financials like EAs show PC represents about 20-25% of revenues. So if you filter out to Steam-type and indie games, it looks like PC isn't generating more revenue.
reports recently point to 92% of it being digital so there is less value lost through the food chain in the first place.
At which price-point? More sales at a higher percentage margin but lower gross sell price == less money.

100,000 console sales at $60 with a 50% to publishers is worth more than 2,000,000 download sales at $2 with a 70% cut to the developer.

The question cannot be answered without lots of pretty detailed information about profits from Steam and other platforms.
 
I don't think anyone has ever given a decent breakdown of platform sales and earnings to provide a reasonable insight. As such, the question "is Steam good for dev profitability" is likely unanswerable.

Yeah we went through this, without data we'll never know for sure and Steam won't release it. We do know two things though. First, no one has to price their games at $5 on Steam. For example COD games rarely hit that price point unless perhaps they are extremely old games. As a result I haven't played any of the last COD games so that franchise is beginning to fade into obscurity for me being replaced by the likes of FarCry, etc, but that's Activision's prerogative, they aren't interested in that price point. Going with that tells us one more thing, in that if most publishers are willing to go to that price point as we see that they are then it must be considered profitable for them. I have to go under the assumption that they are doing what is best for their company, and hence conclude that selling at every price point including the $5 Steam sales is something they consider a win. One would have to think that if that $5 price point was truly harmful to them and damaging to their brand that they wouldn't sell at that price and be more like Activision is with COD but we just don't see that happening at all.


I mean, a 70€ day one console game sold, must be the main proportion of the total revenue...right?

Without more proof I still don't necessarily believe this is the case for the simple reason that most people will at a minimum both lend a game they own to a friend and then eventually resell it. So to me that $60 price point is really at best $20, because it's not unreasonable to expect that at least 3 people will make use of that one disc in the best case scenario for the publisher. If people never lent their games or never resold them then all digital sales would have completely taken over on console by now. Because after all if you never lend your games or resell them, then why bother fiddling with discs?


That PC game revenue figure includes various 'free to play' and MMO titles though.

Why don't those games count? Money is money to a publisher no? Likewise a gamer is a gamer no? If you spend money and play games then it counts. It would be like me saying "remasters don't count" on consoles. That'd be silly, it's money one way or the other.


This might be true for traditional PC games, like Diablo 3, Sims, MMOs, RTS...but what about the console AAA games such as COD, FarCry etal etc etc?

They do appear on the top sellers lists when they come out. Assuming Steam isn't lying to us about that, then we can assume that yes people do pay full price for them. So like right now the new Borderlands game that is coming out is slotted at #3 on the Steam top sellers list, with Borderlands 2 slotted at the #1 slot due to that recent sale. Now true new xb1/ps4 console owners don't get to play the new Borderlands game as it's not available on their console but I think I'd still consider that a "console AAA" game, and there it is getting a ton of pre-orders at full price. There will always be a subset of people that simply don't want to wait and will buy stuff right at launch at full price.
 
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That PC game revenue figure includes various 'free to play' and MMO titles though. For the subset of console-like games, is it really more profitable?
And the question is, and? I think you'll see consoles embrace this more as they look to penetrate RoW further (ref the pack in title for XBOX One in China, for example).


So if you filter out to Steam-type and indie games, it looks like PC isn't generating more revenue.
And "Arcade" and indy titles are part of the revenue stream for consoles as well, so I don't know why you're filtering them.

At which price-point? More sales at a higher percentage margin but lower gross sell price == less money.

100,000 console sales at $60 with a 50% to publishers is worth more than 2,000,000 download sales at $2 with a 70% cut to the developer.
Except for AAA, $60 titles they are being sold for a significant time for $60 and then discounted, a $60 title isn't being sold for $2 straight away; a lot of titles won't get discounted for years, so will wait for the next year and effectively be the same full price but come with the "game of the year" edition with all DLC.

For larger titles the model is analogous to the EA Access. They are two different ways of further monetizing older titles.
 
Why don't those games count? Money is money to a publisher no? Likewise a gamer is a gamer no? If you spend money and play games then it counts.
It only counts if you're making those sorts of games. But if 95% of PC revenue comes from MMOs, an indie trying to sell a stealth-'em-up or black and white dream synthesiser or an FPS space explorer isn't going to be seeing much of that money. It's like trying to sell bottled drinks. If you make bottled fruit juice and there's a report showing the US spends more on bottled drinks than the EU, you'd expect to make more money selling there. But if the US only buys bottled water, your bottled fruit juices won't do you well.

That's why looking at company financials is probably a better indicator of the value of the PC space as it's the same game style and business style as every dev has open to them, from your single bedroom coder to Insomniac and Ninja Theory. EA's results show PC nets them about 25%, and less than consoles.

Here's on more. I'll let someone else do the Googling from now on. ;)
http://www.vg247.com/2013/05/07/ea-...ium-has-over-3-5-million-subscribers-to-date/

From EA financial
Total profits for Q4 ending March 31 was $323 million, down compared to the $400 million generated during the same period in 2012.


Total revenue for FY13 was $3.8 billion, down from $4.14 billion in 2012, but profits were up to $98 million, compared to $76 million year-over-year.


Digital net revenue hit $453 million, up from $419 million year-over-year.
Digital revenue is up (by which they mean downloadable content, because all the content is digital!) and represents 453 / 3800 or 12% of total revenue. So if it's argued PC is almost entirely download titles, PC is providing only part of that 12% revenue and none of the non-download revenue.


And digital revenue breakdown is 39% and 44% for console and PC respectively. Ergo, PC provides 6% revenue.

If one wants to argue the numbers that way. That's always lots of ways to work numbers if they're not direct.
 
And the question is, and? I think you'll see consoles embrace this more as they look to penetrate RoW further (ref the pack in title for XBOX One in China, for example).
See reply to Joker above. If the PC market makes 80% of its money (illustrative, made up figure) from MMOs, the fact PC takes more money than console doesn't provide any detail on how much money Steam makes.

Except for AAA, $60 titles they are being sold for a significant time for $60 and then discounted, a $60 title isn't being sold for $2 straight away;...
I know. I was just citing one hypothetical situation that shows that better sales and better profit margins doesn't necessarily equal more profits. We can't possible determine profitability on any platform without detailed information. My point here being that guess doesn't make for a serious, sensible argument.
 
Plenty of gamers will buy a good full priced game day one. Steam sales are more like an icing on the cake I think when it comes to profit. I also would say that Steam is any indie's best chance at profitability in the first place because of the savings of digital distribution and more intimate nature of customer-developer-publisher relations that Steam often provides.

ea-combined-ttm-revenue-2000-2013-v2.png

It's also incredibly interesting to see how stable the PC market is for them since 2000. I'd like to see how much actual profit the PC market pulls in for them versus the others.
 
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Why is GTAV, the hottest game in the solar system, released on PS360, but not on PC...if PC makes more revenue than consoles...why no release up to now? I don't know the answer.

Why no Red Dead Redemption? Why do we have so many poor PC ports? If PC makes more revenue on these 'console' games than the consoles...why do the devs not push the platform to be competitive...e.g. Mass Effect series where we basically get only a resolution and fps upgrade, many others the same.

If the PC platform is financially so relevant to the publisher...why is PC gaming treated as an afterthought instead of the primary target?


Even the most traditional PC game developers don't seem to care about this platform (e.g. release of Rage and the AMD debacle, Battlefield 4 release with its PC bugfest,...).


All these things don't point towards a high priority/importance of the PC/Steam platform for 'console' game publishers. As publishers are only interested in money...what do I miss?
 
I don't understand the question in the topic title.
As in.. it doesn't make sense. Is Steam good for developer profitability? Erm.. obviously it is, since it's the largest chunk of the PC market.


It's also incredibly interesting to see how stable the PC market is for them since 2000. I'd like to see how much actual profit the PC market pulls in for them versus the others.

In total, it should be proportionally less than the consoles. Many of the best-selling titles are are developed by console first-parties.



Why is GTAV, the hottest game in the solar system, released on PS360, but not on PC...if PC makes more revenue than consoles...why no release up to now? I don't know the answer.

There's a "definitive version" of GTA V being made for the PS4 and Xbone. Thankfully, the PC owners will be getting a direct port of the new-gen title instead of getting the usual port of the PS360 version with its terrible-looking assets.



Why no Red Dead Redemption? Why do we have so many poor PC ports? If PC makes more revenue on these 'console' games than the consoles...why do the devs not push the platform to be competitive...e.g. Mass Effect series where we basically get only a resolution and fps upgrade, many others the same.

If the PC platform is financially so relevant to the publisher...why is PC gaming treated as an afterthought instead of the primary target?
Even the most traditional PC game developers don't seem to care about this platform (e.g. release of Rage and the AMD debacle, Battlefield 4 release with its PC bugfest,...).
All these things don't point towards a high priority/importance of the PC/Steam platform for 'console' game publishers. As publishers are only interested in money...what do I miss?

Not all publishers treat the PC as an afterthought. EA doesn't, and neither does Activision-Blizzard or Zenimax.
I imagine that publishers of games more console-ey/arcade-ey (i.e. Capcom) make most of their money from consoles and tend to leave the PC for last.
 
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Plenty of gamers will buy a good full priced game day one. Steam sales are more like an icing on the cake I think when it comes to profit. I also would say that Steam is any indie's best chance at profitability in the first place because of the savings of digital distribution and more intimate nature of customer-developer-publisher relations that Steam often provides.

ea-combined-ttm-revenue-2000-2013-v2.png

It's also incredibly interesting to see how stable the PC market is for them since 2000. I'd like to see how much actual profit the PC market pulls in for them versus the others.

I'd add that EA's sales might be lower than they could be on pc because they have decided to shun the largest pc gaming market (Steam) by not releasing some of their big titles there and instead confining them to Origin.


Why is GTAV, the hottest game in the solar system, released on PS360, but not on PC...if PC makes more revenue than consoles...why no release up to now? I don't know the answer.

You could answer that question with a question. Like why did Blizzard wait such a long time to bring Diablo, a multi gagillion seller, to consoles. Why no release up to now? I don't have an answer for that offhand either.
 
ea-combined-ttm-revenue-2000-2013-v2.png

It's also incredibly interesting to see how stable the PC market is for them since 2000. I'd like to see how much actual profit the PC market pulls in for them versus the others.
stable as in massive shrinkage?
you didnt accurately look at the graph did you, it went from um about 1/3rd->1/2(~40% pc result) to about 1/4th (~25% result) aka huge pc drop

live fottball commentary
1-1 pc/console is looking very close
(ball bounces of Mobius1aic's head into the pc net)
1-2 pc/console pity about the own goal, thats the commentators curse at work

personally I don't know about steam, I have a feeling it was good for pc game makers but now with so much competition (within steam) its like ...
 
That PC game revenue figure includes various 'free to play' and MMO titles though. For the subset of console-like games, is it really more profitable? Publisher financials like EAs show PC represents about 20-25% of revenues. So if you filter out to Steam-type and indie games, it looks like PC isn't generating more revenue.
At which price-point? More sales at a higher percentage margin but lower gross sell price == less money.

100,000 console sales at $60 with a 50% to publishers is worth more than 2,000,000 download sales at $2 with a 70% cut to the developer.

The question cannot be answered without lots of pretty detailed information about profits from Steam and other platforms.

You're thinking about it wrong. The PC market generates more revenue than the console market.

We're not talking about unit sales, but total revenue. If we go with a very naive example that doesn't go into changing margins with lower cost for physical distribution...

1,000,000,000 revenue on console titles with 33% going to the publisher/developer would be 330,000,000 in profit. This obviously ignores the margin erosion at lower price points.

versus

1,000,000,000 revenue on PC titles with 70% going to the publisher/developer means that it generated 700,000,000 in profit. Or over twice as much profit as was generated from console sales with the same revenue.

When talking unit volumes that means that unit sale volume on PC will be significantly greater than on console due to the low ASPs when you take into account Steam sales, GOG sales, Origin sales, Humble Bundles, massive number of low cost Indie titles, etc.

Referring back to Pixel Junk. Unit volume doesn't matter in the same way as it would if it was a traditional retail product.. They had twice as much revenue/income (same as it's a flat % off the price versus physical which has a lower profit margin the lower the price is) as they did in all the months combined up until that sale. Those sales would likely never have come no matter how long they waited at the original or slightly discounted retail price.

Here's on more. I'll let someone else do the Googling from now on. ;)
http://www.vg247.com/2013/05/07/ea-...ium-has-over-3-5-million-subscribers-to-date/

From EA financial
Digital revenue is up (by which they mean downloadable content, because all the content is digital!) and represents 453 / 3800 or 12% of total revenue. So if it's argued PC is almost entirely download titles, PC is providing only part of that 12% revenue and none of the non-download revenue.

As I pointed out in another post somewhere, that is horribly outdated now. FY 2014 marks the first Fiscal Year where digital revenue surpassed revenue generated from physical product sales.

EA's revenue's have been trending towards that for the past few years with it greatly accelerated in FY 2013 and FY 2014. You can find the relevant documents here (http://investor.ea.com/annuals.cfm ). Careful, those are very dense documents meant for investors (tax information, investments, board of directors, blah blah blah).

FY 2014
Packaged goods and other generated 1.663 billion in revenue.
Digital generated 1.833 billion in revenue.

Unfortunately, they don't do a breakdown of income (profit) along those lines. But I'd be more than willing to bet that Digital generated far more profits than packaged goods. Especially, if you consider that sales via their Origin service all go to EA alone and doesn't have to be split with another storefront owner.

They also don't do a breakdown between console titles and PC titles, but considering we recently learned that consoles are in the 10-12% range for digital sales versus PC which is greater than 90% digital sales, you can infer that most of it is likely PC. But that PC likely still trails console by a fair margin although not by nearly as much as back in 2012.

This is a trend in the industry at the moment and why publisher's are scrambling to change how they do business and how they sell their products.

You also mentioned how traditional physically packaged companies (or console companies) fare in this. They are slowly transitioning some of their development spending towards F2P. Some more than others. Blizzard has both Hearthstone (seems to be hugely profitable thus far) as well as upcoming Heroes of the Storm. EA has a MOBA (like DOTA 2/LOL) that I can't remember the name of as well as other F2P games. UBIsoft has Ghost Recon online as well as other F2P initiatives.

You also mentioned MMOs. That also is moving into the console space. Square Enix is basically surviving off of the revenue generated by Final Fantasy 14 at the moment and not as much from games that you would traditionally think of as a Square Enix console title. Much of that due to the huge influx of players they got with the release of the PS4 version.

Basically both Sony and Microsoft (along with the publishers that make games for those consoles) are attempting to tap into that PC revenue pool. Whether it be via opening up to more indie development or adopting revenue streams that have up to now been dominated by PC titles (F2P, MMO's, etc.).

And finally, going back to whether Steam sales are good?

They serve a two fold purpose. They give a title much larger exposure than they otherwise would have had. And they get people to buy the game that would not otherwise have done so. Either people that would have pirated it or people that just weren't interested in trying the game at the original price point.

Does that erode some of the sales from the launch price points. Absolutely. But most developer's have had positive experiences with it. They still get some or most of the initial sales. But as the price goes down they have an exponential growth in unit sales which typically leads to far greater dollar sales (revenue/profit). The ASP goes down, but unlike physical product sales your profit margin doesn't erode. In the case of Steam it is basically always 70%. Versus physical product sales where margins erode rapidly as the price decreases (manufacturing and shipping are constants that don't get lower just because you lowered the price).

Regards,
SB
 
I can't answer this question. All I know is that typical indie games are dime in dozen. Even if the game is good, I have 75-100 unplayed Steam games waiting. Indie game REALLY has to impress me if they want to get sale from me at full price. Or they can wait untill it's 1-5 euros and I'll buy it just because why not and may or may not play it in the future.

So far I've never bought full priced indie game. Only full price games I bought recently are AAA modern day setting open world games like GTA series or MMOs.
 
I think what this really shows is that with all the past content available, as well as falling prices due to competition, that perhaps a subscription service based on game play time could be the way to go. If you pay a subscription you don't care what the game costs as all that matters in the end is how much fun you had, and how long you had that fun.

One problem with games is that only a few games can suck up hundreds of hours of time in a way that even TV shows cannot match. With big open world titles (Skyrim/Minecraft etc), MMOs, online FPSers etc. So as a consumer I can pretty much get by on only a couple of titles a year as I play quite a few of them for quite a long period of time. How else are you going to extract value out of this outside of a subscription?
 
Why is GTAV, the hottest game in the solar system, released on PS360, but not on PC...if PC makes more revenue than consoles...why no release up to now? I don't know the answer.

Why no Red Dead Redemption? Why do we have so many poor PC ports? If PC makes more revenue on these 'console' games than the consoles...why do the devs not push the platform to be competitive...e.g. Mass Effect series where we basically get only a resolution and fps upgrade, many others the same.

If the PC platform is financially so relevant to the publisher...why is PC gaming treated as an afterthought instead of the primary target?
It isn't, you can look from developer to developer / publisher to publisher and see differing primary targets, which is not unexpected.

There is an element of legacy with the choices that are made. For one, some have shied away from PC due to piracy, however with platforms like Steam and the majority of revenue coming from digital sales this is becoming less of a barrier.

Another factor is the differing architectures, however this is something that is becoming much less of an issue due to the fact that the underlying hardware is now very similar and the game engines are increasingly coming with multiple platform targets so it is becoming much easier to create the assets once and spread them across multiple platforms.

With the stability in DX11 hardware on the PC and the awareness that the next gen consoles were utilizing effectively the same platform the PC is driving a lot of console titles in terms of development. Take Tomb Raider as an example - Crystal Dynamics did the "DX9" (360/PS3) base, Nixxes uprated that to DX11 for the PC and the DX11 version became the base for XBOX one and PS4's version.
 
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You're thinking about it wrong. The PC market generates more revenue than the console market.

PC may generate more revenue overall than consoles. What its doesn't do is generate revenue from full game downloads that comes close to console full game sales for the big 5 pubs.

Go look at the earnings of Activision.

http://files.shareholder.com/downlo...D121D8EC95C/Activision_Blizzard_2013_AR.1.pdf

When it breaks outs online subs ($912 million) like WOW and digital downloads for handheld and mobile devices, the PC segment generated only $340 million in revenue. In comparison consoles generated $2.4 billion.

EA earnings

http://investor.ea.com/releases.cfm?ReleasesType=Earnings

By quarter
Total consoles 790 498 309 459 739
PC / Browser 252 298 274 210 238

In any of these quarter, full game downloads did not reach above $100 million ($55-$92 million). In terms of digital distribution, full game downloads represent anywhere from 10-20% of revenue.

The bulk of digital revenue is generated through subs, DLC, mobile titles and advertising.

One shouldn't equate physical = console and digital = PC.
 
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PC may generate more revenue overall than consoles. What its doesn't do is generate revenue from full game downloads that comes close to console full game sales for the big 5 pubs.

Go look at the earnings of Activision.

http://files.shareholder.com/downlo...D121D8EC95C/Activision_Blizzard_2013_AR.1.pdf

When it breaks outs online subs ($912 million) like WOW and digital downloads for handheld and mobile devices, the PC segment generated only $340 million in revenue. In comparison consoles generated $2.4 billion.

EA earnings

http://investor.ea.com/releases.cfm?ReleasesType=Earnings

By quarter
Total consoles 790 498 309 459 739
PC / Browser 252 298 274 210 238

In any of these quarter, full game downloads did not reach above $100 million ($55-$92 million). In terms of digital distribution, full game downloads represent anywhere from 10-20% of revenue.

The bulk of digital revenue is generated through subs, DLC, mobile titles and advertising.

One shouldn't equate physical = console and digital = PC.

Of course, and you'll note I also stated that PC probably still trails Consoles for EA. And why should we remove MMO's? It is a genre that exists both on PC as well as on Consoles for the large console game producers. Sony (DC Online, Planetside 2), Square Enix (FFXIV, FFXI), and others. Xbox One/PS4 has more future MMO's in developement that was shown at some of the Chinese gaming conventions.

Are we discounting them just because they haven't historically done well on consoles? Although Square Enix is making a killing off the PS4 version of FFXIV. Should we then exclude titles and genres that don't do well on the PC but do well on the console so we can form some sort of confirmation bias?

And then what will you do when those genres start to take increasing hold on consoles as well? Suddenly include them because now it makes console revenue look better?

Just because consoles are currently dominated by the "old guard" publishers doesn't mean it will always be thus. There's no reason why Tencent (arguably the largest MMO publisher in the world with holdings in Epic and Riot) may not at some point supplant some of the "old guard" on console as Sony and Microsoft try to make inroads into China. Or Daum and the plethora of Korean game developers who are currently PC exclusive but have an opportunity to try out console developement with the new generation of consoles. Perhaps we'll even see some of the Japanese PC exclusive developers port more titles to consoles with the eased access to selling indie titles on console.

But I guess if it makes console forum warriors feel better. Sure lets exclude any publisher that only started to consider consoles as a platform with the newest generation. I suppose if that sort of vein. You wouldn't have allowed Epic to be in discussions until they were successful on console. And of course CD Projekt Red wouldn't have been allowed in discussions until they were successful on consoles. Or perhaps you can include them, just don't include any revenue generated by games and genres that aren't doing well on console? Ridiculous.

As such we should also exclude any console developer that doesn't have a presence on PC, no? And just as ridiculous.

Just like the Console ecosystem has console exclusive developers, multiplatform developers, developers that rarely publish on PCs and some developers that rarely publish on consoles. The PC ecosystem has PC exclusive developers, multiplatform developers, developers that rarely publish on consoles and developers that rarely publish on PC.

Gaming revenue is gaming revenue. It doesn't matter if it does well on X platform but not on Y platform. It doesn't even matter if it exists on W platform and not on X or Y platform. At some point it may exist on W, X, and Y platforms.

Hell there are former console genres that barely exist on consoles anymore but are flourishing on PC (SHMUPs for example). Thanks in large part to Steam and the other online digital storefronts. And due also in large part to the frequent sales that bring visibility to those titles that otherwise would have been lost in the shuffle.

Regards,
SB
 
stable as in massive shrinkage?
you didnt accurately look at the graph did you, it went from um about 1/3rd->1/2(~40% pc result) to about 1/4th (~25% result) aka huge pc drop

live fottball commentary
1-1 pc/console is looking very close
(ball bounces of Mobius1aic's head into the pc net)
1-2 pc/console pity about the own goal, thats the commentators curse at work

personally I don't know about steam, I have a feeling it was good for pc game makers but now with so much competition (within steam) its like ...

I think you're looking at this wrong. It's a drop in EA's marketshare (a percentage) but the revenue has increased. This is a developer/publisher's internal revenue, not the entire gaming market as a whole. The PC may be a 1/4 of EA's revenue now, but it's a steady half billion each year for the last few years that continues to rise. EA wouldn't give up such a huge revenue stream especially when they salivate at the thought of Steam-like revenue performance that they'll never achieve, though it is still a substantial part of their business. I mean come on, they created a Steam clone (Origin).
 
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The amount of games people don't play in their library is a testament to the added sales, you are able to sell your game to an audience that would otherwise not pay you at all, and that audience is so big late into your products lifecycle, that it may overwhelm the number of people actually paying full price to your game simply by brute forcing.
 
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