Luminescent
Veteran
Overall, how does the Flipper's geometry engine compare to Elan, geforce 2, and other hardware containing hardwired T&L (not sure if Elan is a hardwired implementation)?
Is Flipper's geometry engine more powerful than Elan?
- Thread starter Luminescent
- Start date
Elan can do 10 million polygons per second with 6 light sources:
http://www.segatech.com/arcade/naomi2/index.html
Not sure about GameCube:
http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/index.html
But Virtua Striker and Beach Spikers were Naomi2 ports and they seem to run fine on GameCube.
http://www.segatech.com/arcade/naomi2/index.html
Not sure about GameCube:
http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/index.html
But Virtua Striker and Beach Spikers were Naomi2 ports and they seem to run fine on GameCube.
CaptainHowdy
Regular
a4164 said:
GC is supposed to be 10-12 mil with 8 light sources
I could be off,its been a while since I have looked it up..
I THINK thats what it was, so its pretty close.
That figure of 6 lights for Elan is for "full complexity" lights (i.e. position, focus direction, distance atten etc etc).
You will often find marketing figures for some chip will quote a directional light which amounts to a dot product and a scale, so make sure you're comparing like with like.
You will often find marketing figures for some chip will quote a directional light which amounts to a dot product and a scale, so make sure you're comparing like with like.
Show me a game with anywhere near the polygon counts and complex lighting of Rogue Leader running on a Geforce 2 at a decent framerate.
Rogue Leader must have around 5+ lights with around 250,000 polys per frame at 60fps.
Yeah you have to take into account that this is a closed system vs a PC, but still I think if a theoretical test on Geforce 2 can't even come close to a real game on Flipper its obviously Flipper has faster T&L.
EDIT: Sorry zurich, I edited this before I realised that you'd already replied to me.
overclocked
Veteran
When will Factor5 reveal their new game...
Ok. How are the two comparable? How do you compare what any PC games designed around what the Geforce 2 can directly compare to the features seen in RL? Is RL really that complex? How many polygon's is it pushing?
Really? Did you count the polygons Teasy? Did you count the lights? That number for polygons sounds absolutely ridiculous. 250,000 perframe? Show me a resource that suggest this. I am willing to wager this game only runs around 60,000 - 100,000 ppf. 250,000 is a totally outlandish number.
??? I don't see how you can make such an assumption. I haven't seen a trustworthy source for GC stats. Most of what i have seen are nothing more than bs figures presented by factor 5.
Legion,
Don't forget that Flipper's T&L is fixed function, meaning it lends itself quite nicely to geometric shapes and such (ie: Star Wars is a nice showcase for this). If it is approaching 250k per frame, then I wouldn't really be surprised.. hardwired T&L is built for speed (lower latencies, predictable data), but has its limitations. IMO, Rogue Leader was tailored around these limitations.
Don't forget that Flipper's T&L is fixed function, meaning it lends itself quite nicely to geometric shapes and such (ie: Star Wars is a nice showcase for this). If it is approaching 250k per frame, then I wouldn't really be surprised.. hardwired T&L is built for speed (lower latencies, predictable data), but has its limitations. IMO, Rogue Leader was tailored around these limitations.
Steve Dave Part Deux
Newcomer
Aren't the lighting models pretty much fixed for DX8 class hardware as well, as far as what can and can't be practically used with a particular shading model?
I don't really understand that question. But Rogue Leader runs at between 12-15 million pps.
No I don't need to, I've seen numbers from the developer, which is backed up by the incredible complexity of the game. I also remember Factor 5 mentioning the number of lights but can't remember exaclty what they said. But then just look at the game, the lighting is spectacular.
Yeah right, Rogue Leader pushes only 3.6m - 6m pps? That's outlandish mate.
I could have a look for some interviews for poly pushing info, but as I remember it was at least 12 million pps. Also remember back when EA measured T&L performance with one of its engines? GC was around the same performance as a Athlon 1.4ghz and Radeon 8500.. which is a hell of allot faster then a Geforce 2.
In loads of threads here people have mentioned that Rogue Leader is pushing upto 12 million pps, its from Factor 5 themselves. How did you miss that? Also why would anyone need to compare fixed function to programmable?.. we're talking about Flipper vs Geforce 2, both fixed function.
CaptainHowdy
Regular
So, if Gamecube is a GF2, what does that make PS2? a voodoo 2?
more realistically
PS2=GF2(except the GF2 was capaple of bumpmapping, and anisotropic filtering)
Gamecube=Radeon 8500
Xbox=GF4 TI
more realistically
PS2=GF2(except the GF2 was capaple of bumpmapping, and anisotropic filtering)
Gamecube=Radeon 8500
Xbox=GF4 TI
Steve Dave Part Deux said:
I would imagine what most hardware does is comparable to what the GF2 does.
However Flippers T&L is very basic, the lighting model in particular, is just enough to get the job done. The difference between what GF2 considers a local light and what Flipper considers a local light are significant. You could probably turn enough stuff off on the GF2 light to make them comparable but I don't know of any benchmark in such a situation.
ERP
Nothing I've seen Geforce 2 do, even in tech demo's, comes close to what Flipper does in Rogue Leader. I really don't know what you mean about its lighting being simple compared to Geforce 2. The lighting in Rogue Leader is fantastic, that certainly doesn't look simple to me. Everything I've seen, from benchmarks to just looking at the games tells me that Geforce 2 cannot stand up to Flipper in T&L performance. So you'll forgive me if I don't just take your word on this.
BTW, what a few people here are forgetting is that we shouldn't just be taking raw T&L power into account here, but also the efficiency. Lets see what Geforce 2 is pushing with 4 textures (having to do two passes) vs Flipper, or even 6-8 textures (after Geforce 2 has taken 3-4 passes and Flipper only one).
Nothing I've seen Geforce 2 do, even in tech demo's, comes close to what Flipper does in Rogue Leader. I really don't know what you mean about its lighting being simple compared to Geforce 2. The lighting in Rogue Leader is fantastic, that certainly doesn't look simple to me. Everything I've seen, from benchmarks to just looking at the games tells me that Geforce 2 cannot stand up to Flipper in T&L performance. So you'll forgive me if I don't just take your word on this.
BTW, what a few people here are forgetting is that we shouldn't just be taking raw T&L power into account here, but also the efficiency. Lets see what Geforce 2 is pushing with 4 textures (having to do two passes) vs Flipper, or even 6-8 textures (after Geforce 2 has taken 3-4 passes and Flipper only one).
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