ipod video vs psp - getting interesting

[OVERLORD]

You act as if the PSP was just a portable movie player.
It's a handheld games console first, a pmp second.

I was merely supporting the original article as linked by OP. A view others have observed elsewhere with Apples Ipod video release. In fact I did more than that I provided reasons why I came to this conclusion. All within context of original post I might add.

It wasn't acting. Just stating facts!

It's PSP that suffers identity crisis:-

http://www.umdtalk.co.uk/content/view/10/1/

http://www.umdtalk.co.uk/content/view/14/1/

http://www.umdtalk.co.uk/content/view/12/1/

If you look at it the games point of view, I don't see the UMD support as any more "failed" than for example GameBoy cartridges.

GameBoy cartridges failed? Interesting. How so?

GBA related:-

Total Worldwide Console Sales http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498&page=2

Nintendo Hardware and Software Sales Statistics http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=11055&page=2

Total Worldwide Console Hardware Sales http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=14306

DVD related:-

http://shop.telecoms.com/marlin/300...MarEntityId=1129794710183&entHash=102713745b5

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html#currentmonth

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.9

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

I gave you my reasons. Glad you disagree.

Now give me your statement for PSP's defense?

Interesting PSP poll http://www.videogamesplus.ca/pollbooth.php?op=results&pollid=74

 

[Ty]

That's because they were backwards. Thunderbirds OTOH featured wristwatches with video conferencing

Hmm, I think Dick Tracy did as well!

 

[Lazy8s]

Just as the business plan of a game console uses software margins to subsidize more powerful and/or less expensive hardware in order to outsell most other competing consumer electronics, subscription contracts can afford an even better hardware value -- making the inclusion of a hard drive or large memory cards feasible for downloadable media distribution -- and are a natural element of providing phone service, something people already need anyway.

 

[OVERLORD]

What was the alternative?

Existing media (such as CD/DVD) is too large for the device.
So how else are they to sell Movie content for it? Selling downloads requires the user to have sufficient space to store the videos, which adds to the cost of either adding a HD (which will use battery power), or forcing the user to buy large memory cards.

I see it as Sony have simply created a media that fits in their device and they are selling content on it. Apparantly UMD movies are selling quite well in the US.

Did you read all of my post?

Most multimedia PC's have large HDD not to mention CD/DVD recorders to archive content. Compared to Proprietary UMD read only players.

When it comes to storage what cost more HDD storage or proprietary memory? Do the maths.

We already have the means to distribute movies be it DVD/CD,DIVX/XVID or Web you just need a solution to transfer data to HDD.

I never suggested CD/DVD was a physical alternative to UMD to be incorporated within PSP machine.

Don't confuse physical with digital.

I suggested these were already established storage media which were better qualified for distributing digital content.

You would merely transfer the data of such a disc to a PSP which would instead have a HDD unit rather than a optical device such as UMD by either using a PC's CD/DVD drive or have a seperate docking station like you can with digital photo processing.

DVD already had a minimised format for camcorders that could've been just as adequate as UMD disc. Looks to me just like minidisk this format was merely created for the revenue it would generate for Sony IP.

Appart from obvious piracy UMD format justs smacks of Minidisc/Attrac money grabbing.

With PMP players now support 30GB, 60GB, 80GB & 100GB HDD's. Why try to establish another format when 8cm DVD were available.

 

[darkblu]

ok, rant time. i'm not particularly happy with the umd media as a consumer. it's

• way too propietary. there's one device on the market to use it, and nobody else (read hi-fi/gadgets/electronics vendors) seem interested in it.
• there do not seem to exist any perspectives on releasing a recordable version of the format, again for the simple fact that there aren't any parties interested other than sony.
• the most non-durable media available on the market today, bar none. minidisks have higher durability than the umd, and that's for a _portable_ media which does not sit on shelves but most often in pockets, bags and purses.

the only advantage i see in the umds is their minimalistic production cost, of which, i, as a consumer, gain nothing (sony's umd titles are not cheaper than nintendo's cartridges) - at least sony could have offered a sane damaged-in-use merchandise replacement policy.

so what would i have liked better?

• read-only memory sticks. those could have been based on the same rom technology ninty use in their ds cartridges. durable, convenient, power-efficient. don't need fancy umd drives but a mere second ms slot.
• a microdrive, preferably replaceable. users download content ipod style. memory stick still there to provide for savegames and basically being the regular 'swap-in' media with easy interchangeability with sony's (and other producers') photo and video cameras.

well, end of rant.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How much room are PSP games using up though? You don't get cheap DS 1.8 GB memory cards. Isn't their limit 1 gigabit?

 

[mckmas8808]

I hear your rant darkblu, but it is only the beginning. Give UMDs a good year and then lets see where they are headed. By then more day to date new releases should be coming out for UMDs with it's cousin DVD. Maybe Sony wises up and allows companies to make UMD writers when the see the $$$$ that can be made.

 

[darkblu]

How much room are PSP games using up though? You don't get cheap DS 1.8 GB memory cards. Isn't their limit 1 gigabit?

AFAIK all psp games so far use 0.9GB single layer umds. only the movie umds are 1.8GB.

as about ds cartridges limitation - yes, they are presently found as 1Gb but i'm not aware if that's their limit. it could be just as well, though.

 

[OVERLORD]

This just confirms even more that UMD is as stillborn as minidisc http://www.pvrwire.com/2005/10/21/psp-compatible-dvr-on-the-way-from-sony/

Seems just like idea I proposed earlier don't you think. Except they'll use memory cards instead of HDD.

Some useful UMD info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Media_Disc

I wouldn't hold my breath on recordable UMD blanks or recorders.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

1Gb is 128 MB. That's about what I'd expect for a dirt-cheap medium. Nintendo specified this as the specs for the cartridges so I guess it's hardware. After all if the machine was capable of supporting say 8Gb cartidges wouldn't that have appeared on the specs tab, even thought for some years those cartridges would be prohibitively expensive?

Aren't these cartridges also based on SD or the like? Can someone confirm a hardware limit for the format Nintendo's using, such as first gen SD/CF cards were limited to 128 MB?

 

[OVERLORD]

1Gb is 128 MB. That's about what I'd expect for a dirt-cheap medium. Nintendo specified this as the specs for the cartridges so I guess it's hardware. After all if the machine was capable of supporting say 8Gb cartidges wouldn't that have appeared on the specs tab, even thought for some years those cartridges would be prohibitively expensive?

Aren't these cartridges also based on SD or the like? Can someone confirm a hardware limit for the format Nintendo's using, such as first gen SD/CF cards were limited to 128 MB?

128MiB.

Info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_ds

Games utilize a proprietary solid state flash card format resembling the memory cards used in other portable electronic devices such as digital cameras; this semiconductor technology is said to be far cheaper than conventional cartridges and can be used within a system without moving parts to jar out of place when dropped. It is currently capable of supporting cards of up to 1 gibibit (128 mebibytes) in size. The unit features wireless networking capabilities for multiplayer games or chat using Wi-Fi. The current software does not use IP, therefore preventing Internet play features and use of Wi-Fi routers with the DS. Future online games will presumably implement an IP stack to make their online game modes possible.

 

[darkblu]

It is currently capable of supporting cards of up to 1 gibibit (128 mebibytes) in size.

above doesn't say anything about the system's designed limits, only that that's the present status quo. it'd be curious to know if that's all the ds can address.

 

[OVERLORD]

above doesn't say anything about the system's designed limits, only that that's the present status quo. it'd be curious to know if that's all the ds can address.

Sorry this wasn't of help.

Nintendo rarely maximise memory use compared to other manufacturers.

Just look where they are compared to others with GC memory!

Thats's anyones guess.

Even Bill sees physical storage as behind the curve for digital distribution http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12398

What chance UMD?

 

[mckmas8808]

Even Bill sees physical storage as behind the curve for digital distribution http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12398

What chance UMD?

We are going to just have to wait and see. Sony says that UMD movies will be 60% of all UMDs sold by 2008. So that means 40% goes to games on UMD. Being that over 4.6 millions PSP games have been sold so far in the USA alone that would seem pretty good for UMD movies.

That's 4.6 million games without a holiday season and coming out in March. Imagine if Sony estimates are correct in 2008? If the same applied now that would be what 6 million UMD movies sold so far this year. Of course we will have to wait and see if this happens though.

 

[London Geezer]

We are going to just have to wait and see. Sony says that UMD movies will be 60% of all UMDs sold by 2008. So that means 40% goes to games on UMD. .

Heh that says something about the incentive people have to buy PSP games....


/runs

 

[mckmas8808]

Heh that says something about the incentive people have to buy PSP games....


/runs

Yeah you better run. I think people are buying the PSP for gaming and movies hence the great software sells of games. I mean think about it the PSP game sells pasted the DS games sells at the end of August. That's pretty good given that the PSP didn't have a holiday season and came out 4 months later.

The DS game sales did past the PSP game sells at the end of September due to Nintendogs though. I think they have a 20,000 unit lead or something.

 

[Captain Chickenpants]

Did you read all of my post?

Yes

Most multimedia PC's have large HDD not to mention CD/DVD recorders to archive content. Compared to Proprietary UMD read only players.

When it comes to storage what cost more HDD storage or proprietary memory? Do the maths.

The PSP is not a multimedia PC, it was never intended to store content.Yes a HDD would be cheaper, but it will be a lot less kind on batteries, which for a portable device is a big issue!

We already have the means to distribute movies be it DVD/CD,DIVX/XVID or Web you just need a solution to transfer data to HDD.

So what about people who don't have a computer? As it stands the PSP can play games and DVD's without any extra device. Are you suggesting that people should have a PC to upload the games they have bought?

I never suggested CD/DVD was a physical alternative to UMD to be incorporated within PSP machine.

Don't confuse physical with digital.

Not sure what you mean here.

I suggested these were already established storage media which were better qualified for distributing digital content.

You would merely transfer the data of such a disc to a PSP which would instead have a HDD unit rather than a optical device such as UMD by either using a PC's CD/DVD drive or have a seperate docking station like you can with digital photo processing.

So either they have to have a PC, or shell out more money for a docking station?

DVD already had a minimised format for camcorders that could've been just as adequate as UMD disc. Looks to me just like minidisk this format was merely created for the revenue it would generate for Sony IP.

Appart from obvious piracy UMD format justs smacks of Minidisc/Attrac money grabbing.

The advantage of the UMD over the mini-dvd's is the protection. This is a device that you are expecting people to be swapping discs in and out regularly. Unprotected media would be unlikely to survive that kind of treatment. Camcorders you generally put the disc in once and when it is full take it out.

Obviously you would have to be pretty dim to not think that Sony is also trying to grab money, that is what they do and they are very successful at it. I just think that most of the decisions are fairly reasonable.

With PMP players now support 30GB, 60GB, 80GB & 100GB HDD's. Why try to establish another format when 8cm DVD were available.

I don't think I have seen any as big as 100GB, but regardless you are still requiring people to transfer the data somehow, wheras the PSP is a sully functional player out of the box, with a media that is more resiliant to wear and tear.

You seem to be very against the UMD format for video distribution, and in all honesty so am I! Why should I buy a film on UMD when I already own it on DVD?

So so what I do re-encode your DVD's with PSPVideo9. 512MB gives pretty good quality, and let other people who don't have the means to dothis buy UMS's if they want.

 

[OVERLORD]

Yes
The PSP is not a multimedia PC, it was never intended to store content.Yes a HDD would be cheaper, but it will be a lot less kind on batteries, which for a portable device is a big issue!

I never suggested PSP was a multimedia PC. I suggested a PC would be suitable for transferring content to PSP!

So what about people who don't have a computer? As it stands the PSP can play games and DVD's without any extra device. Are you suggesting that people should have a PC to upload the games they have bought?

There aren't that many interested in PSP who haven't got access to a PC. That's why I suggested a docking station. This would have a DVD drive to transfer data to PSP. Don't tell me a general purpose DVD drive @ todays greatly reduced prices can't compete with expensive UMD/DUO PRO memory as currently advocated on PSP!

Not sure what you mean here.

You posted and I quote

Existing media (such as CD/DVD) is too large for the device.

I presumed you were talking, physcally too large to fit confines of PSP as opposed to the digital content seeing as PSP has no inbuilt storage and is reliant on expensive proprietary memory card for same purpose. I never suggested CD/DVD discs physically being incorporated within PSP confines and merely purposed their data being transferred.

I'm not sure why you made physical comparison when I was talking all along about distributing their content! If you didn't mean physical size then I'm sorry but Sony's choice in storage capacity dictates this deficiency.

So how else are they to sell Movie content for it? Selling downloads requires the user to have sufficient space to store the videos, which adds to the cost of either adding a HD (which will use battery power), or forcing the user to buy large memory cards.

So getting users to buy more expensive UMD disc solely for displaying on PSP only was better alternative tovast number of HDD type PMP's already out there! Many of which equal or surpass PSP's battery efficiency.

I see it as Sony have simply created a media that fits in their device and they are selling content on it. Apparantly UMD movies are selling quite well in the US.
20-Oct-2005 12:30

Such much enthusiasm! UMD content like minidisc before it offers much the same content already available on formats like DVD and still selling CD format! UMD by comparison cost far more. Provides less in comparison at a much reduced resolution and is PSP only! How many more media hungry consumers will have downloaded MP3/WMA, DIVX & XVID content in comparison?

Initial take up is one thing. Sustaining momentum is quite another when what you propose adds additonal cost compared to defacto standards.

So either they have to have a PC, or shell out more money for a docking station?

This wouldn't be much different to XBOX360 HDD choice. Would it?

Obviously you would have to be pretty dim to not think that Sony is also trying to grab money, that is what they do and they are very successful at it. I just think that most of the decisions are fairly reasonable.

Well I have a different view. I look @ the other failed Sony formats! How much did this cost Sony and their supporters?

When I buy something I don't favour isolation from already established formats. UMD is further isolated from future Sony media players by Sony failing to support this format @ home on your TV either via your PSP or any other standalone players suitable for this purpose. PS3/UMD support would've galvanised my enthusiasm and belief that it won't go same way as minidisc. Seeing as this hasn't been proposed by Sony who insist on establishing yet another format, against another well supported format I might add (Notice a pattern here!) UMD will quickly become a niche product like minidisc.

I don't think I have seen any as big as 100GB, but regardless you are still requiring people to transfer the data somehow, wheras the PSP is a sully functional player out of the box, with a media that is more resiliant to wear and tear.

Here's 3 for a start http://www.mp3players.co.uk/site/uk/archos_av4100.html
http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=314673&cks=PRL and http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.asp?sku=311133&cks=PRL

I call it researching what I post!

You seem to be very against the UMD format for video distribution, and in all honesty so am I! Why should I buy a film on UMD when I already own it on DVD?

Sony seems to be a serial proponent in failed formats having failed previously with Betamax, minidisc & their continued repositioning of Atrac on MP3 compatible players. I just don't like 1 trick ponies like those Sony favour simple as that. With the continued advances in digital ditrbution I much favour that route than follow a proprietary format no one else supports. Even Sony themselves limit UMD's exposure to mainstream consumers! That says a lot to me.

I appologise for length in reply but there was a lot to reply to.

 

[Captain Chickenpants]

Won't bother with the whole quote thing as it takes up way too much room!

I disagree that people interested necesarily have access to a PC, one key benefit of a console/PSP/DS is that they don't require you to own a PC. The fact that you have to own an extra peripheral just to transfer content would put many people off. You would lose the ability to quickly swap games with other people e.g. kids at school.

Sorry, yes I did mean physically too large, at the time you had not brought up the whole docking station/PC connection issue, so I read your comment as trying to fit a DVD in there.

I wasn't suggesting that you were making up the HDD sizes, merely that I hadn't seen any that big. (You really need to chill out).

The whole proprietary media thing also allows Sony to maintain control of their content.

I feel I should point out that I don't really like UMD especially, I just fail to see that the alternatives are much better. Creating a multipurpose device is a balancing act where you have to weigh up the options. Some decisions will suit some people, but not others.

I suggest you don't take it as a personal affront when people disagree with your opinions, perhaps they have different priorities

 

[OVERLORD]

Won't bother with the whole quote thing as it takes up way too much room!

I disagree that people interested necesarily have access to a PC, one key benefit of a console/PSP/DS is that they don't require you to own a PC. The fact that you have to own an extra peripheral just to transfer content would put many people off. You would lose the ability to quickly swap games with other people e.g. kids at school.

Sorry, yes I did mean physically too large, at the time you had not brought up the whole docking station/PC connection issue, so I read your comment as trying to fit a DVD in there.

I wasn't suggesting that you were making up the HDD sizes, merely that I hadn't seen any that big. (You really need to chill out).

The whole proprietary media thing also allows Sony to maintain control of their content.

I feel I should point out that I don't really like UMD especially, I just fail to see that the alternatives are much better. Creating a multipurpose device is a balancing act where you have to weigh up the options. Some decisions will suit some people, but not others.

I suggest you don't take it as a personal affront when people disagree with your opinions, perhaps they have different priorities

No problems m8!

Glad someone replied to my rambling rant.