Inq Rant Hardware Sites "Docile Ass-Kissers"
- Thread starter Geo
- Start date
MasterBaiter
Regular
digitalwanderer said:On a site I used to work at that got waaay more popular than anyone expected too fast and the offers just started coming in, it took all the fun out of it.
Hmmm... I wonder who he could be talking about....
Whelp. It's pretty hard not to agree that hobbyist sites are relatively safe provided that they have some ethics/professionalism to start with (and as non-biased a perspective as possable). That seems to be asking for quite a bit though.
I visit Anand, Kyle, and Toms sites, but I usually put my rose-tinted glasses on when I do. They do offer a decent amount of content that is digestable. Some of it on the other hand I could do without, or just with a few dashes (aka a brick) of salt. I even visit that EliteBastards site It's second in my favorites next to midget pr0n
DaveBaumann said:
Wavey--
Probably this isn't the best place to ask this question, but wth. Do you have any sense of how much being UK-based impacts your relations, both from an info-gathering and a "review boards submitted" sense? Do the vendors tend to relate to you as a "english language" site, a "UK based" site, or a "Euro site"? Do you sense any downside from being a "english language" site based several thousand miles from the primary english language audience?
I would *think* that the internet almost --but not quite-- makes such distinctions irrelevant (certainly for the consumers, but possibly less so for the vendors), and was curious if you've given it much thot.
It doesn't make any difference, being in the UK. We all still get sampled, samples can be on our doorstep from anywhere in the world within 24 hours and our banks take payments in any currency.
If anything, since it's a tighter community over here, it's actually a benefit.
If anything, since it's a tighter community over here, it's actually a benefit.
I was gonna say, unless you're located out on the West Coast or in Texas here you're pretty much in the tech boonies in the US.Rys said:
I keep hoping something fun comes to Chicago since that is in my range, but nothing ever does.
aaronspink
Veteran
digitalwanderer said:I keep hoping something fun comes to Chicago since that is in my range, but nothing ever does.
Don't complain, you got all the Virtual Worlds game pods you could want up in Chicago.
Don't think it really matters where you are based. The only advantage to being around the 495 or 101 is that you could possibly go out drinking with people working on things you cover on a regular basis. It would seriously take just two nukes to set the tech industry back a decade or so.
And FYI, Austin is pale shadow compared to The Bay Area or Boston area.
aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.
Anand does seem like a nice guy, but ever since the inexplicable foot-dragging after multiple errors were exposed in his 5900 review, I've been rather wary of AT. Given the articles lauding the financial condition of AT, I'm still wondering why they're dependent on review samples for items as relatively inexpensive as video cards, especially when you can just sell them back to your forum members for a minimal loss (or lotto/raffle them for good advertising).geo said:
I dunno, if ATi can mail RMA cards next-day FedEx, surely the same applies to review samples. I'm guessing you're talking about being in the mix, though. What about video conferencing? Just set one up in a bar on each coast, and buy some cross-continent rounds to loosen some lips. Eh? Eh?digi said:
Eh.
Yeah, I'm definately talking about just face-to-face time....the internet really does make it too easy to communicate.
Diggy, you can come visit me at CMU. There's not a lot of interesting tech (that I have access to, anyway), surprisingly enough. Just unbelievably fast internet connections.
Rys said:
Glad to hear it. There must be some impact from card manufacturers (not ATI or NV) either selling or not selling in your market? Or is there? Some sites you see over time a plethora of reviews of the same basic card but different manufacturers. I've noticed some B3D reviews (the one on 6600GT being an example) seem marginally more aimed at the UK/Euro audience, not in their analysis or testing, but in their pricing/availability segments.
Said another way, if you have a lot of card manufacturers that like you, aren't you a little less reliant on the IHV's themselves to cough up samples? If not for previews/announcements, then for actual shipping cards? Sometimes the IHV's aren't as hot to push a given chip, but the card guys still gotta sell. . .
Come to think of it, does B3D and other volunteer sites turn down a lot of duplicative review opportunites with the rationale that since it adds neither to the knowledge of the readership nor the revenue stream of the site, why bother? And the necessary corollary is that when you see a site doing their third review of a card with a specific chip, but different card manufacturer, they probably aren't doing it because they are bored nor to add greatly to the knowledge of the readership?
That's the thing. I see nothing important about a preview rushed out to coincide with NDA expiriation for hardware that won't be available for sale for several weeks (optimistically) at the (mis)quoted price on beta drivers. I'm more than willing to wait an extra week after retail availability for AT (and other sites with the financial means or editorial motivation [see: reselling the review cards to readers for a slight loss, with the readers knowing they're at least minimally supporting their preferred site]) to produce a more in-depth and real-world review based on living with the card and launch drivers for a decent amount of time. Let the early adopters with cash to burn and no time to spare buy new cards sight unseen, so to speak. People who take the time to at least glance at the benchmarks at hardware sites should be smart enough to be able to wait a week or so after launch to see what their preferred reviewers have to say.Fodder said:
I suppose staggered worldwide releases and varying availability limits sites based in countries other than the US and those near Taiwan from the luxury of getting hardware first, but it seems to me that some sites can do this.
They can spend the time up to launch writing articles based on the PR the IHVs send their way regarding the architectural advances of their latest chips.
I wouldn't complain if sites did both, but even that doesn't occur with any regularity, because even those "real-world" roundups with comparative noise scores seem to be contingent on review samples and take a long time to arrive. The latter point may be unavoidable with a single reviewers operating with a single test system, but the former seems to me to be an avoidable impediment to more thorough and objective reviews.
Eh, this is just me being grumpy. I've hashed this argument out already, and unless I start a review site of my own, my complaints (if they have any real-world validity) won't sway any site owners. Let's just drop this whole thing, and I'll say that I would agree with the gist of Charlie's post were it not published under the banner with the hard journalism name of The Inquirer. I don't put it above him to exaggerate his rant to gain hits, just like I doubt it's above a reviewer to go out of his way not to displease an IHV (over the supposed benefit of his readers).
geo said:
You're right, sometimes the IHV's won't push out a reference board for a certain SKU. Or sometimes they'll only push out a reference board SKU to certain sites/magazines that they know will a) give them a good score pretty much regardless or b) understand the market the SKU sits in well enough to do it justice.
You'd be surprised how often it happens, where an IHV won't give a board to a site since all they understand is the high-end (and what's not to understand, stuff goes fast, woooo).
The actual 'buying' of reviews isn't as common as Charlie makes out, IMO, but it certainly does happen. Controversially, I'd say it happens 10x more at the print guys, than it does with the web.
We're all still reliant on the IHVs to cut us in with a new architecture launches, since those articles are mainly the ones that'll drive fresh readers to your site. The large roundups of boards (which is getting easier for the smaller sites to do, as AIBs increasingly look to the web over print for coverage of stuff like that) are more for readers that've been to your site before and trust it enough for an honest look at AIB implementations of the tech you've covered from an IHV.
As for buying boards for roundups, which is part of Fodder and Pete's last posts, even the next tier of sites that sit under the THGs, HOCPs and ATs of this world, financially, can't really afford to grab a dozen boards based just on one SKU, for a roundup.
What we do for that is just tie in with a friendly retailer and have them supply us with as much as we can. You'll notice most sites that sit under the top tier are pretty friendly with one or two retailers, for that reason, to get that kind of content up (and also do some more interesting, maybe marketing-led, stuff like giveaways, to attract new readers).
geo said:
Rys said:
I don’t think it’s quite as cut and dried as all that and there is defiantly different treatments by different companies dependant on how they handle their PR and the types of things you are aiming for, no matter how many times you say “we are an international website and the majority of our traffic is from the US!â€. Information and sampling are often two different things.
For instance, NVIDIA’s PR is fairly regimented and they have both staff and agencies working for them in many countries so they can handle a lot at a local level, and they do – because of this and my location we operate very much through the local PR office; while I could talk to DP directly about stuff, and have done in the past, in general its expected that I go through the local PR for questions and queries and all sampling will be done directly by the local office.
ATI is very different in that they don’t have anywhere near as much local representation – until recently they had no local representation at all PR for the UK was headed up from their European HQ in Germany and due to various reasons their PR was very poor on the European side. Whilst we maintained good relations with the European office it was obvious that to get to the sorts of details that we’d like getting info direct from the Canadian and US offices was the way to go and we struck up relationships on that side. ATI’s European position has changed very significantly over the past year or so though and they have much more effective European operations but because (although we are relatively much smaller than many of the other sites) we target their core audience we are fairly high up on the priority list we can get access to both local and US/Can representatives if we need them; as Tom’s Hardware is based in Germany they also have a similar approach with them AFAIK. At the moment sampling is done both locally and directly from the HQ.
Because the butt stops with the board vendors, they do seem to take things at a much more local level as they have to push things in particular regions. For instance, virtually all the board vendors contacts I have are UK or European based; it just wouldn’t be worth my while talking to most US based board vendors – likewise, Club3D only operate in Europe and I suspect that there is no way they would want to deal with me if I was in the US. Through past relationships and chance meetings I do know John Malley from BFG Tech in the US and whilst we’d like to take a look at more BGF products the primary reason the recent BFG 6600 GT review occurred was because BFG had struck up a deal with PC World (very large chain of retail PC stores owned by Dixons) in the UK and so they wanted to increase their UK awareness.
Some companies take localisation to an even greater degree. For instance, we have pretty good relations with the primary graphics guru of one of the largest OEM’s and we occasionally discuss things that are happening / coming up; however their PR lines are very strict and to get any official information from him I need to get an NDA with the local PR office before any details can actually be released – part of the reason for this is that the products they are selling are different for different reasons, and they only want the correct SKU’s going to publications within the correct regions; the web causes them a bit of an issue here.
Of course, there is also the size and reach of the site that has to be considered and that has to be factored into how they will want to treat you, and who you are going to be dealing with.
IgnorancePersonified
Regular
Give it a few years and we will be reading the equivalent of "Fox Hardware News". Oh wait .. we already are.
NVIDIA have a lot of things to hide from the media outlets -- they don't want to risk any of their staff "leaking" out information (although such info may seem harmless by such staff to pass on). David Kirk, for instance used to correspond with me quite regularly until he told me NV PR decided that staff shouldn't be "cowboys" anymore. I contact anyone at NV right now directly and BB (he'll know coz these staff will usually be "forced" to let PR know I contacted them) will kick my ass for doing so since he had told me not to do this anymore.DaveBaumann said:
They're all soldiers or robots at NVIDIA!
I thought ATI's core audience are the gamers, not technology enthusiasts...? That's what should make them more money
ATI reminds me of 3dfx, very friendly guys, with the exception of Eric Demers, who hates me... oh don't you guys want to know why! (I admit a huge part of the problem was me though). Wait, maybe this applies to all the ATI staff that posts here, they all hate me!!
The butt ??
DaveBaumann said:
I'll agree with you from an information point of view. Getting accurate and timely information about products is a task in itself, but this really only applies to brand new reference hardware and even if you don't get the full picture about something, as you more often than not are able to get, at least in terms of what you'll want to write, you'll almost always get enough info from the IHV to write an informative piece. IMO anyway.
For vendor products after a new bit of hardware is released, it doesn't matter where you are, in my opinion. Even when BFG never sold in the UK, they still had product shipped over, since we can prove where our readership sits, worldwide. In that respect saying "most of our readers are in the US" is a correct and valid statement to make to them and we don't really have anyone disbelieving us when we say that.
Therefore, if we wanted to do a very large roundup of a certain SKU, I don't think it would be that much of a challenge to get the majority of what's out there to buy, sampled from either the AIB itself or a local retailer that carries a whole bunch of them.
In that respect, there's a very definite reference hardware/vendor hardware split in terms of how a website can operate.
It definitely seems that in these respects, each site is pretty much considered on its own merits by the IHVs and AIBs. Each site gets treated a little bit differently, depending on who they are and what they produce. B3D's methods of operation might not be ours, or THG's, or anyone else's.
Similar threads
