Industry Leaders Panel Discussion

[Qroach]

to me, gta3 seems to the kind of game teens go for, and people in there early twenties. It just doesnt appeal to me. Violence is a real cheap way to make a game 'exciting' and 'inyour face'.

That's just the thing, many people think mature = violence, but GTA 3 and vice city is more than just the violence. Yes, it has violence in it, but it's an extremly fun game all around. It's also not the violence by itself that makes the game appeal to and older audience, but the entire package itself.

Hey, nothing is wrong with having an opinion. however, to argue that the game doesn't appeal to older auidences, is a moot point really. When the average age of a PS2 gamer are in thier early twenty's then the same could be said for the audience that are buying the games on that platform.

 

[Qroach]

yeah, thats valid. I guess the moral is, different strokes for different folks.

true.

 

[Nexiss]

Nexus and sergio,

Teasy has a habit of ignoring the facts behind somehting like this IMO. When a representitive of sony say in a conference that he average age of a PS2 owner is in their early 20's, and ALL of the people in that discussion honestly believe that a game like this appeals to older gamers much mroe than a Mario title, I agree withthem because it's what's actually happening. I've said it a million times, people get older and their tastes change. now that's my opinion, and I think the amout of sales of games like GTA outright prove this. No not everyone tha tbuys the game is mature, that never happens. but I'd be willing to bet the majoiryt of people that do by it are somewhat older that their early or mid teens.

GTA being mature or whatever you want to call it isn't the point. I've said numerous times throughout this thread that the "mature label" or rating as the game has, doesn't mean anything. It doesn't guarentee actual mature gamers to be interested in the title. it's the entire package of the game that appeals to the more mature gamers. Not the label/rating on the box.

Now saying it's immature, that's nonsense IMO and nothing but a personal opinion. One could say that ALL games are immature. Doesn't really matter much to this discussion.

You are missing my point.
If a bunch of industry insiders/experts all were telling me that the majority of the people that are buying (and that it appealed to) GTA3 are older gamers (adults), I would be inclined to believe them. Why? Because they have the data and I don't.
My point, and what I thinkpart of Teasy's was, is that just because a bunch of adults are buying it doesn't make it a mature product. I personally find it immature, fun yes, but immature. If a bunch of industry experts tried telling me I should think otherwise (just because of the age group it is selling to, or their own personal opinions), than I say screw them.
You just sounded like you were trying to invalidate Teasy's opinion on the maturity of the product through an Appeal to Authority fallacy.

 

[wazoo]

There are some people here that own SMS and did not even started to play it. I own GTA3 for eight months and I have not played it more than one hour. different tastes.

What I found very funny is that even if we all agree that the average age of the gamers is rising, some here seem to think that no new gamers are entering the market. Mario has no raisons to sell less than the previous one due to a rise in the age of the gamers. There are still many gamers young and adult pleased to play it. Do you really think the pokemon generation has collapsed ??

There are many reasons for mario to sell less than M64 (larger number of number to buy in the first year, not so revolutionary title, slowly loss of interest for platformer 3d - see Sly racoon for abyssimal sales of a first party title) without looking to that kind of argument.

 

[Qroach]

You are missing my point.

or are you missing mine?

If a bunch of industry insiders/experts all were telling me that the majority of the people that are buying (and that it appealed to) GTA3 are older gamers (adults), I would be inclined to believe them. Why? Because they have the data and I don't.

Exactly. However, do you really need to data to see this? If the average age of a PS2 owner is say... 22, and this game sells 10 million copies on the PS2, don't you also think the average age of the people buying this game would fit in with the average PS2 owner age? I really don't see how it can't.

My point, and what I think part of Teasy's was, is that just because a bunch of adults are buying it doesn't make it a mature product. I personally find it immature, fun yes, but immature.

You're completely missing my point. I'm NOT arguing that this is a mature verses an imamture product. Anyone could come in here and say that ALL games are immature! What would you do then? All I'm saying is that there's no doubt this title appeals to older gamers more than say something like SMS.

If a bunch of industry experts tried telling me I should think otherwise (just because of the age group it is selling to, or their own personal opinions), than I say screw them.

Yes, screw them because you know more about the game industry than everyone already in it|? hey that's your choice, but I choose to believe the people that know these things (specifically SONY).

You just sounded like you were trying to invalidate Teasy's opinion on the maturity of the product through an Appeal to Authority fallacy.

All I'm saying is that in reality there's no doubt that this game appeals more to older gamers than something like SMS. I honestly don't knnow anyone in the industry that owuld agree with you (except someone from nintnedo perhaps).

Basically as I see it, the days were the entire game market was driven by a mario title release have come to an end.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Why does anyone even bother arguing with Teasy? It's ridiculous.

Gamers are getting older, their tastes are changing and realism is gaining popularity. This should be obvious to anyone.

GTA3, Halo, MGS 2, Splinter Cell = realism. Not the same as "realistic."

Metroid Prime is on the edge, but probably has mass appeal to older gamers as well.

Themes are important. Ask Sega about that. JSRF comes to mind...

 

[V3]

If GTA3 and Vice had mascot like Mario, Link or Banjoo, I still wouldn't play it.

The game is just way too slow.

 

[Ty]

Perhaps it would help if a standard definition of what makes a game mature vs. immature could be agreed upon? I once embarked on such a task with Teasy but I remember (perhaps incorrectly) that he felt that the amount of FMV content dicated somewhat the maturity level of a game.

 

[V3]

what makes a game mature vs. immature could be agreed upon?

It doesn't matter, videogames are for immature people like me.

 

[Nexiss]

or are you missing mine?

No, I am fairly positive of I know where you are coming from, and lets try and keep this civil.

Exactly. However, do you really need to data to see this? If the average age of a PS2 owner is say... 22, and this game sells 10 million copies on the PS2, don't you also think the average age of the people buying this game would fit in with the average PS2 owner age? I really don't see how it can't.

Neither do I, and I am not trying to. If you thought I was, than you just proved that you were missing my point.
Also, I would need the data to be perfectly sure, whereas if I here it from say a corporate exec who has the data (while I don't) I would be inclined to believe them but I couldn't be 100% positive. This is just common sense IMO ("Don't believe everything you hear..."). Although, going by that you could never be 100% sure (but then we are starting to go on a philosophical tangent).

You're completely missing my point. I'm NOT arguing that this is a mature verses an imamture product. Anyone could come in here and say that ALL games are immature! What would you do then? All I'm saying is that there's no doubt this title appeals to older gamers more than say something like SMS.

I would respectfully say I disagree with their opinion and let it be (or maybe try to persuade them otherwise if I were in the mood).
And you are missing my point, I am not saying that I don't think it appeals to older gamers more than SMS (or any other game, I am trying not to compare it to other games), or that it doesn't appeal to older gamers.
All I am saying is that I personally find it immature and that I think that was part of what Teasy was saying. You see? Absolutely nothing to do with who it appeals to or who it is selling to.

Yes, screw them because you know more about the game industry than everyone already in it|? hey that's your choice, but I choose to believe the people that know these things (specifically SONY).

No, screw them because like I said I have a mind of my own and can formulate my own opinions on what I like or what is mature. I don't need to be told what I should like or find mature. The idea that I should simply bow to their opinion because they are industry insiders(and I am not (yet )) reminds me of something like 1984.
So, once again, I am entitled to my own opinions about the quality of a title, but if said industry insider wanted to tell me something relating to facts such as which age group a title is selling/appealing to than that would be different.

All I'm saying is that in reality there's no doubt that this game appeals more to older gamers than something like SMS. I honestly don't knnow anyone in the industry that owuld agree with you (except someone from nintnedo perhaps). <b>(Comment: Another 'Appeal to Authority' fallacy)</b>

Basically as I see it, the days were the entire game market was driven by a mario title release have come to an end.

Since you seem to keep bringing up SMS (even though it has little relevance to what I am trying to make a point of) I am once again wondering if you are missing my point. I never once tried to argue that SMS has more appeal to older gamers than GTA3, I never once argued anything about SMS. In fact, I never once said that I don't think GTA3 doesn't appeal to older gamers, simply that I personally find it a fun but immature game.

 

[Vince]

Teasy, Teasy:

How can you even argue this? Get out of the protective buddle and you'd see that The Sopranoes are the biggest show on TV, movies like Scarface, Casino, Goodfellas, Heat, ect are huge in contemporary young adult society. This is what society likes and enjoys seeing.

This maturing is evident all across society. Another great example is the birth of the "anti-Britney's" in the music industry - people like Avril, Vanessa Carlton, and Michelle Branch would have never had the impact they did if they went public 5 or 10 years ago. But people mature, they no longer want to idolize a talentless Britney. Time Magazine had a great article about this a few months back.

Gamers are getting older, their tastes are changing and realism is gaining popularity. This should be obvious to anyone.

Exactly, wow this kids on a roll today

Well I'd take my opinion over someone who posts on message boards using the brand name of a graphics card as his name

Ouch. Dude, I was fighting Geeforcer on messageboards when you were still breastfeeding. Regardless of his name, he knows his shit.

 

[V3]

Another great example is the birth of the "anti-Britney's" in the music industry - people like Avril, Vanessa Carlton, and Michelle Branch would have never had the impact they did if they went public 5 or 10 years ago. But people mature, they no longer want to idolize a talentless Britney.

That's really mature of them to have "anti-Britney"

 

[mech]

Way to trash a thread Teasy

 

[Ty]

Lol V3. Touche'!

I've had plenty of disagreements with Teasy but I don't think he 'trashed' this thread. He stated his opinion and how he came to it. I think we're all mature enough to respect each others opinions around here.

 

[mech]

Obviously not by the amount of flaming going on in here.

Sometimes it would appear Teasy disagrees for the sake of disagreeing.

Perhaps his opinion's are so warped it merely appears that way?



Sorry, channeling chap there for a second...

 

[Ender]

I just have one comment to the GCs selling-numbers..
In the US, NGC has sold aprox 2.3 million units (lagging aprox 500k behind Xbox)

So, GC hasen´t even broken the 3 million unit.. kinda hard being "around 4 million" when the 3:rd million barrier hasen´t been broken right?

 

[zurich]

I think the 4 mil number is world wide, and there is a world outside America you know

 

[wazoo]

I think the 4 mil number is world wide, and there is a world outside America you know

around 1M in europe, around 2M in Japan

that would put the GC at around 5.5Mworlwide sold, maybe more depending on how much the numbers cover the market especially in the US.

 

[BenSkywalker]

In the US, NGC has sold aprox 2.3 million units (lagging aprox 500k behind Xbox)

Corrected the number is likely between 3.45Million and 3.68Million by the end of September depending on if you use Johnny's adjustments or mine (with the Box ~800K ahead).

On the general discussion-

mature


Having reached full natural growth or development: a mature cell.
Having reached a desired or final condition; ripe: a mature cheese.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of full development, either mental or physical: mature for her age.

Suitable or intended for adults: mature subject matter.
Composed of adults: a mature audience.
Worked out fully by the mind; considered: a mature plan of action.
Having reached the limit of its time; due: a mature bond.
No longer subject to great expansion or development. Used of an industry, a market, or a product.

Here is what I think most of the disagreement in this thread involves. It depends on what meaning of the word 'mature' you want to use. Certainly games like GTA3 are 'mature' in the same manner that Jerry Springer and Howard Stern are as they contain subject matter that is not intended for children.

But to use an example that Vince brought forth, GTA3 and most like it are not even close to having reached a 'final condition'(ie Goodfellas- arguably the pinnacle of the mob movie genre), nor are they worked out fully of the mind(ie- Godfather, again arguably the pinnacle). I think this is the element that most of this argument is based around.

One side is basing their discussions on content not suitable for children while the other is basing their discussion on how a product relates in terms of cerebral levels of development.

Also, discussions of average age are nice, but without having a general idea of the median age you can't put too much faith in it.

Vince-

Your musical comparisons don't work. The nature of moving from teen innocence(Britney) to teen angst(Avril) to teen temper tantrum(most recently Nirvana) is cyclical in rock and it always has been(older listeners tend not to like much of anything from the newer artists, the reason why catalog sales are enormous for the older bands). The cycle has been repeating since the beginning of rock and roll. With the exception of the baby boomers/GenX there has not been a large enough shift in the birth rate to move the industry based on aging demographic(as music has had a nigh 100% penetration for roughly 40 years). Do you think the typical fifteen year old listens to considerably different music then the typical seventeen year old? Not likely. The overall state of affairs in the US tend to lead the music industry trends(although music usually trails by about a year or two), recessions almost always lead to a fall in 'pop' with a rise in the alternatives.

 

[wazoo]

It seems that adults do to consider this game to be mature in the first sense.

Top-selling game sequel not a hit among parents
TRENDS

By Mike Snider / USA TODAY



"Grand Theft Auto 3" was the top selling video game across all platforms in the United States this year.




"Grand Theft Auto: Vice City," boasts gun-toting thugs dressed in flashy suits, drug-running speedboats and scantily clad inline skaters whizzing along beneath the palm trees, all to a pulsating soundtrack.
It's the latest version of one of the most successful -- and parentally reviled -- video games ever to hit stores.
Four million copies were pre-sold (at about $40) by retailers and the game could sell 10 million copies in the United States over the next year, predicts Anthony Gikas, analyst for investment firm U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray.
Ten million copies could generate $400 million, a take that would be the envy of Hollywood and "very comparable to a major box office smash on the order of 'Spider-Man,' " Gikas said.
The game's predecessor, "Grand Theft Auto III," has sold more than 4 million for Sony PlayStation 2 and about 3 million more for PC in a year, and both versions remain hot sellers.
The controversial content of "GTA: Vice City" and its predecessor, "Grand Theft Auto III," helped make the game a success -- and a target for critics of violence in video games. Both games revel in the criminal element. Players work their way up through the organization by hijacking cars, taking out those who cross their boss, and running over police officers and pedestrians.
"Vice City," available only for PS2, ups the ante. There are more weapons, from Molotov cocktails to rocket launchers, and cool vehicles such as sports cars, helicopters and cigarette boats.
"There are many anti-social aspects to the game," said David Walsh, head of the National Institute on Media and the Family, a Minnesota-based media watchdog organization. The group named "GTA III" and other games such as "Metal Gear Solid 2" and "Max Payne" to its annual holiday offensive game list last year.
Publisher Rockstar Games does not shrink from the fact that the "GTA" games are for adults. Both are rated "Mature," for those 17 and older under the industry's voluntary system. The games are "geared toward mature audiences and (Rockstar) makes every effort to market its games responsibly," said spokesman Jeff Castaneda.
But Walsh said the industry -- while it has improved -- does not do enough to prevent the sale of mature games to children and teens. "Because of the hoopla that surrounds the game, it is played by millions of kids. That is the concern," he said.
Controversy aside, the games break new ground in the evolution of video games as an art form.
In the vehicles that your character steals, you can switch radio stations. The new game has stations featuring 1980s music from artists as diverse as Anthrax, Blondie, Kurtis Blow and Tito Puente.