In the memory of Rachel Corrie.

Nathan said:
Just to add a bit more to this. If you can read both these articles and still think that what Rachel did was not heroic, and wasn't to help the everyday people of Palestine, then you are poor excuse for a human being. The World would be a much better place if everyone cared even a tenth as much as Rachel did.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html
I dont need to read these 2 quite biased papers to know she was no hero. Thats not entirely true, since Im sure future suicide bomber will take comfort in knowing people like her will try to protect their family and property once they kill themselves and innocent civilians.

I doubt she cared anything at all, have we looked into her bank accounts. She might have done this for money or maybe she just hated jews. ;)[/sarcasm]

later,
epic
 
Clashman said:
Ok, so maybe we should start having soldiers drive bulldozers through the lines of those abortion protests.

Again, nice lack of demonstration on understanding the point, or common sense for that matter.

The next time there's a "military operation" involved in, for example, escorting abortion doctors to work, then you might have a point. Bulldozers were not called in to "thwart" the anti-isreali demostrators, you know. How can you not "get it?"
 
epicstruggle said:
I'll leave it for others to more precisely state history, but this land has been owned/fought over by both sides for thousands of years.

By the time the land that is now Israel (formerly being a colony or protectorate or such of the British), it had to my knowledge not been fought over by any jews for hundreds of years. It was by all rights Arab territory since a good many generations.

Who it belongs to is a relative question. ;)

That people who had been born, lived and died on that land for generations were tossed out and rounded up in refugee camps is not exactly a "relative question"...

Again, the question of whose land it was is relative to how far back you go.

But many of those tossed out then are still alive today. Are any jew from the original state of Israel still breathing? If so, I'd like to meet that person! ;)

That jews once lived there some time in the past does not neccessarily give them claims to that land for all eternity to come! Or else you should also argue that all immigrant Americans should turn the US back to the native indian population right now. Fucking hypocrite...

YES. Same as I value my life more than yours. So if i had the option of killing you without endangering me, id take it in a heart beat.

So in other words you readily admit to being not just biased but also a racist and a proponent for war crimes. Yummy.


You must be in denial. When the israelis where trying to get a peace deal done, they started the process of give/take with their counterparts. A deal for peace could have been reached if the suicide bombers hadnt resumed after months of quiet.

*I* must be in denial?

You are obviously not interested in seeing the conflict out of any other perspective than the Israeli. When the peace talks took place, what changes took place that made living conditions more bearable for the Palestinians? Basically nothing. People in general were just as desperate as before! Also, the Israelis did their fair share in trying to wreck the peace talks, you know full and well there are fanatics in the Knesset that would rather see all palestinians dead than doing them even the smallest of favors. Some of these crazy people have actually been a part of the government of the country, and the current prime minister himself isn't too far away from being one of them!

See it always starts with the terrorists.
Yes, your effective demonstration of the facts have certainly convinced me! :rolleyes: Jesus, can you get a little more biased and infantile please?

You get rid of your so called "israeli state terrorism" and you would still have palestinian suicide bombers, you know why? Because they want ALL ISRAELIS DEAD. Can you understand that.

No, I can't, because you are WRONG.

What the hell's wrong with you, why won't you see that by hurting the civilian population, Israel is fuelling the fire driving the fanatics? IN WHAT WAY does killing civilians and destroying their homes stop terrorists? All it accomplishes is showing formerly peaceful palestinians the Israeli are cold-hearted bastards that deserve to die, and then Hamas and co. has another willing recruit!

It's an idiotic tactic, the only thing more idiotic is people like you who think it's actually a GOOD tactic!

The blame lies squarely at the feet of the corrupt palestinian govermnent.

How can the blame lie squarely at the 'corrupt palestinian government' when even the mighty Israeli army can't stop the terrorists? Considering Israeli troops have shot police officers and blown up and bulldozed police stations and government buildings on multiple occations, plus the general state of poverty in those territories, how could you ever expect them to be able to root out this threat? For fucks sake man, when Sharon tried to capture Arafat way back then when they leveled his HQ, they also destroyed a prison full of criminals that escaped, some of which likely WERE TERRORISTS!!!

Especially arafat, has he ever _really_ cracked down on the terrorists?

If he has, would you even believe it? :rolleyes: You've already decided it's his fault anyway!


...And we can ALL see how effective their current "eye for an eye" strategy of violence in return for violence is... :rolleyes:
So youd rather, they keep taking it? Because the terrorist wont stop until all jews are dead.

Do me a favor and don't respond with asinine comments that have nothing to do with what I'm saying. READ MY POST FIRST.

If you DID, you'd have seen I stated Israel should fight the terrorists, NOT the palestinian people, NOT oppress, terrorize and even kill civilians, NOT destroy their homes, work opportunities, infrastructure or economy!

Whats your solution? Have all israelis killed? :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Either your reading's deficient or you're intellectually challenged. Which one is it?

I gave you my solution in the PREVIOUS post already.

a quote from malone from the movie "the untouchables":

You offer movie quotes? Jesus friggin christ, these are REAL PEOPLE! They're not extras in some hollywood movie for Sean Connery and that dances with wolves guy to mow down! That was just aobut the most cynical, disgusting stunt I've seen in what's supposed to be a reasoned discussion. Palestinians aren't mobsters, or animals! They're human beings and deserve every bit as much as Israelis or anyone else!

Israelis need to stop harassing and delaying Palestinians at border checkpoints, even to the point of critical patients in ambulances actually dying on the way to hospital or pregnant mothers miscarrying.
Tell the palestinians suicide bombers to stop using these tactics to get into israel to commit crimes. ;)

Was that supposed to be a joke? Wasn't funny, not the slightest. Again, they're real human beings, not animals.

[/uote]laugh, these people dont care, they just want to kill. Osama with all his wealth still wants to kill. Their hatred comes from an extreme view of the koran.
Uhh... Are you for real?

*shivers*

You strike me as a pretty damn fanatic person yourself you know.
 
AAARRRGGGHHH!!

:( :(

I just spent a long time writing a response and it was swallowed up by the internet somewhere..... can't even get back to like I can sometimes....

:(
 
The people who assume the bulldozer driver had malicious intent, are frankly talking out of their ass.

The fact of the matter is, no one here knows what was or was not going through the persons mind at the time. Whoever it was, might very well be emotionally scarred for the rest of his life for all we know. Then again, he might be a murderer.

Either way, thats a question for due process, not politically biased ASSumptions. And in a war situation, both accidents and murder can potentially happen. Its tragic of course, but the girl was clearly not completely blameless either.

As for whether Israel was justified in bulldozering in the first place, in my opinion 100%. Its completely unnacceptable for 'freedom fighters' to commit acts of terrorism and then expect that Israel will just sit idly by twidling their thumbs. That people on this bulletin board think that could be the case realistically, is just completely illogical to me.

At this point in my life, where it was once strong, my sympathy for the Palestinian cause has now almost completely vanished. If they insist on acting like criminals, vandals and lunatics don't expect that it won't make an impression on hearts and minds ultimately.

Here's to Tibet freedom. A group of people who have deserved the right to a country, as much by their lack of violent action as to the valid claim.
 
Fred said:
At this point in my life, where it was once strong, my sympathy for the Palestinian cause has now almost completely vanished. If they insist on acting like criminals, vandals and lunatics don't expect that it won't make an impression on hearts and minds ultimately.

Here's to Tibet freedom. A group of people who have deserved the right to a country, as much by their lack of violent action as to the valid claim.
You know I was actually a long time ago a real big supporter of the palestinians. But seeing children who are casualties of the suicide bomber, finally made me switch sides.* The palestinian leadership should serioiusly read up on the non-violent movements of Ghandi, and Marthur Luther King jr. There are some situations where it wouldnt work, but there are many in israel that would support such an act, and the govermnent would have to cave in.

Tibet has been forgotten, by many during the last few years. I hope at some point the world unites and demands that china gets out of the country and releases the religious leaders they have locked away.

later,
epic
*Yes palestinian children also die senseless deaths, but before a suicide bomber strikes, he/she can actually see who their victims will be. That is a major difference between that, and helicopters shooting missiles down at a house/apartment with a terrorist in it.
 
epicstruggle said:
You know I was actually a long time ago a real big supporter of the palestinians. But seeing children who are casualties of the suicide bomber, finally made me switch sides.* The palestinian leadership should serioiusly read up on the non-violent movements of Ghandi, and Marthur Luther King jr. There are some situations where it wouldnt work, but there are many in israel that would support such an act, and the govermnent would have to cave in.

Tibet has been forgotten, by many during the last few years. I hope at some point the world unites and demands that china gets out of the country and releases the religious leaders they have locked away.

later,
epic

Hey, I'm all for non-violence. But if you're only holding that standard to one side than you're making an unrealistic expectation. You're saying Palestinians can't be violent but Israelis can, which frankly isn't a fair or consistent argument.

*Yes palestinian children also die senseless deaths, but before a suicide bomber strikes, he/she can actually see who their victims will be. That is a major difference between that, and helicopters shooting missiles down at a house/apartment with a terrorist in it.

I suggest you take a look at the following breakdown:
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Fatalities_Lists/Pal_Minors_by_IsSec_Oct00_eng.asp

Most Palestinian children killed in this conflict are killed by gunfire, not Helicopter fire or rockets or bombs. Guns. Which means the Israeli's also see their victims before they kill them.

Furthermore, with regards to the house demolitions, while the IDF said it was searching for tunnels, the reality of this is that they were cutting down a huge swath of land, generally assumed to be about the width of a football field, and anything within that area was fair game, regardless of whether or not it harbored smuggling tunnels. And it's not like Rachel Corrie is the only case of this happening, there's James Miller, Brian Avery, Tom Hurndall, and hundreds, if not thousands, of Palestinians. It may not have been murder, but it sure wasn't an accident. It is part of a systematic disregard for human life, in part fostered by a relative impunity of Israeli soldiers to face real consequences for their actions.

Also, for a good read on many of the reporting fallacies that have accompanied the Rachel Corrie story, I suggest reading: Speculative Journalism: The making of ?The Death of Rachel Corrie?
http://192.211.16.13/a/asdf/response.html

It takes a pretty good swipe at alot of the generalizations made by both right wing media, and even percieved "progressives", (The article is written primarily in response to one that appeared in "Mother Jones"), including the notion that the ISM works with terrorists and supports suicide bombers, implied in the wikopedia article Russ linked to.
 
Joe DeFuria wrote:

“Any time someone blocks a solider's way, they should EXPECT that they have a high probability of being killed.â€￾

If that is your opinion then you must agree this:

Any time some nation occupies another nation, steels its land and murder its people, including the children, they should EXPECT that they have a high probability of being answered the same way and suffer murders of their own people as the consequence of their own actions.
 
Maggi said:
Joe DeFuria wrote:

“Any time someone blocks a solider's way, they should EXPECT that they have a high probability of being killed.â€￾

If that is your opinion then you must agree this:

Any time some nation occupies another nation, steels its land and murder its people, including the children, they should EXPECT that they have a high probability of being answered the same way and suffer murders of their own people as the consequence of their own actions.

Besides being completely irrelevant and off-point, then you must agree with this:

Anytime some terrorists purposely targets and kills civilians in an attempt to sway action, they should EXPECT that the action that is taken, will be whatever it takes to ensure as high a level of defense and protection as possible.

Now, what this has to do about the "circumstances" around Corrie's death, will remain a mystery.
 
Florin said:
epicstruggle said:
Thats a load of bull. depending on how chaotic the surrounding area was, he couldnt possibly keep track of what was infront of him, if he could even see clearly what was there. She was a bump on the road, i doubt he even noticed it.

later,
epic

Perhaps he shouldn't have driven a bulldozer through a chaotic surrounding area where there was the risk of human casualty in the first place.

perhaps you shouldn't get infront of heavy machinery?
 
Fred said:
The people who assume the bulldozer driver had malicious intent, are frankly talking out of their ass.

A good point you beat me to. The assumption here is the driver deliberately impaled her with the the prongs shovel. With the device in opperation i doubt the driver could see or hear what was infront of him. The Caterpillar D9s have significant blind spots (especially military use). Let us not forget this machine is hardly moving around at high speeds.

The fact of the matter is, no one here knows what was or was not going through the persons mind at the time. Whoever it was, might very well be emotionally scarred for the rest of his life for all we know. Then again, he might be a murderer.

Well Fred, this begs the question: why would anyone assume the driver's intent was murder without having any probable cause?

Either way, thats a question for due process, not politically biased ASSumptions. And in a war situation, both accidents and murder can potentially happen. Its tragic of course, but the girl was clearly not completely blameless either.

I am reminded of the scene from Austin Power's wrt to the Steam Roller :LOL:

As for whether Israel was justified in bulldozering in the first place, in my opinion 100%. Its completely unnacceptable for 'freedom fighters' to commit acts of terrorism and then expect that Israel will just sit idly by twidling their thumbs. That people on this bulletin board think that could be the case realistically, is just completely illogical to me.

I completely agree with you. In the US we bulldoze crack houses, who complains? The crack addicts.

At this point in my life, where it was once strong, my sympathy for the Palestinian cause has now almost completely vanished. If they insist on acting like criminals, vandals and lunatics don't expect that it won't make an impression on hearts and minds ultimately.

Why would anyone suspect they could run a country while acting in the manner they do?

Here's to Tibet freedom. A group of people who have deserved the right to a country, as much by their lack of violent action as to the valid claim.

What would be their valid claim? Their hatred of the jewish state?
 
Legion said:
perhaps you shouldn't get infront of heavy machinery?
Of course you shouldn't get in the way of heavy machinery if you can avoid it. But to ignore the responsibility of the operator is ridiculous. I have around 5000 hours operating heavy machinery. When I am in a situation where I can't be sure where all the bystanders are, I stop the machine. If there are children present, or anyone who is unpredictable, I tell them to stand somewhere out of the way where they are easily visible at all times.

Next time you're driving and you see a Critical Mass demonstration be sure to plow right into them. They deserve it for intentionally blocking your stupid SUV. Or maybe you'd like to drive at 45mph past a school and run over a kid who steps out onto the road without looking.

It's not a difficult concept. If you operate machinery, you are responsible for the safety of the people around you. You have to expect them to act stupidly.

Joe's comments about military operations requiring a different set of rules is correct to a degree. In this instance, it doesn't appear that the soldiers were in any immediate danger, yet they still chose not to restrain the protestors or operate the bulldozer in a safe manner. That's negligence in my book. If they knew she was in the path of the bulldozer, then it looks a lot like murder.
 
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