In the memory of Rachel Corrie.

[Clashman]

Also, for those who always equate opposing the occupation of Palestine to supporting the murder of Israelis, I suggest reading an oped put out by a Palestinian med student who found out that one of his friends had been implicated in the death of an Israeli:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/samah14.html

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I will just repeat what I said one year ago, as I feel no different:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4938&start=0

Tragic? Absolutely. But they either know the risks going in, or are foolish to go in without evaluating the risks.

 

[Clashman]

I don't think anyone here is saying that she didn't know there were risks involved. The problem here is that the Israeli government refuses to take responsibility for it's actions, in this case as well as many others. Israeli soldiers are not held accountable for misuse of force, and conduct themselves as though they are immune to legal repurcussions, (which for the most part, they are). And this simply perpetuates the cycle of violence, rather than bringing an end to it.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I don't think anyone here is saying that she didn't know there were risks involved.

I disagree. I think anyone who claims she was mrdered is misplacing the risks involed in interfering with a military operation.

 

[Clashman]

And I disagree as well. There is plenty of evidence pointing to her being deliberately run over. There was intent to kill. She was unarmed and was not a physical threat to the person in the bulldozer. By any accounts that is at least reckless homicide or manslaughter, if not outright murder. It doesn't make a fuckin' bit of difference if it was a "military operation" or not. Even in military operations there are certain rules that have to be obeyed, which the Israeli military routinely ignores.

 

[RussSchultz]

There is plenty of evidence pointing to her being deliberately run over. There was intent to kill. She was unarmed and was not a physical threat to the person in the bulldozer. By any accounts that is at least reckless homicide or manslaughter, if not outright murder.

"Plenty of evidence" leads to "by any accounts"?

Well, I've read "plenty of evidence" that leads to "by any accounts" an unfortunate accident where somebody willingly put themselves in a dangerous situation and lost the gamble.

Regardless, she was still a facilitator. Hardly a hero. Just somebody who died in the war between Palestine and Israel.

 

[Nathan]

I disagree. I think anyone who claims she was mrdered is misplacing the risks involed in interfering with a military operation.

How hard is it for a soldier to grab an unarmed woman and drag her out of the way? I think it must have been a case of mistaken idenitity, because the Israelis would not be stupid enough to kill someone they knew to be an Amercian citizen. But that just means that they were callous enough to kill someone, that they thought was a Palestinian, for demonstrating against them. I'm astounded that the Israelis would think nothing of killing Palestinians. Afterall, it wasn't that long ago that the Germans thought nothing of killing Jews.

I don't think there can be any doubt that they knew she was there. Protestors have to get in the other side's face to make sure their message is heard. It's highly unlikely that she was hiding quietly inside the house, waiting to be flattened. I'm dying to know, how do you accidently run someone over with a bulldozer, which travels at only a few km/h, while they are right in front of you protesting for all they're worth? Do you honestly think that the bulldozer driver was alone? That no one else was there who could have moved her?

A vague comment about accidents happening in war is not a defence. Claiming she was murdered is entirely appropriate, from my point of view.

 

[RussSchultz]

How hard is it for a soldier to grab an unarmed woman and drag her out of the way?

Would telling them to leave be enough?

How abought shooting tear gas at them?

Dispersing them several times throughout the day?

What about stopping the bulldozer every time somebody climbed up there?

Oh....they did that.

Well, I guess they still murdered her.

WHY DON'T YOU SPEND A LITTLE TIME AND READ ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED?! NOT JUST AT THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA EITHER!

 

[Clashman]

Regardless, she was still a facilitator. Hardly a hero.

Taking a stand against an illegal military occupation using nothing but your own courage is as heroic as it gets. The Israeli military has no right to be in Palestine. They are the facilitators.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

How hard is it for a soldier to grab an unarmed woman and drag her out of the way?

What part of "military operation" do you not understand. I repeat. MILTARY OPERATION. Not "police action" or "peacekeeping action."

How hard is it for a soldier to grab an unarmed woman? Let's assume for a moment that this was not an accident (which AFAIC, it was).

Who says she wasn't armed? Since when does the military go by the assumption that the enemy isn't armed? When does the military assume that she either doesn't have a bomb strapped to herself, or that her "buddies" aren't waiting in ambush?

This is what the military does. They "kill people and destroy things." This is not by accident, but by design. You get in the way of that, and more often than not, you're in trouble.

You don't "reason" with the military. You don't "test" them. You don't "get in their way." You, as well as her, don't seem to get this concept.

She was no more "murdered" than any civilian prclaiming themself as a "human shield", and positioning themself at a military target.

 

[Nathan]

Regardless, she was still a facilitator. Hardly a hero. Just somebody who died in the war between Palestine and Israel.

Just because you don't agree with her actions, doesn't mean she wasn't a hero. She gave her life for something she believed in. Rachel wasn't hurting anyone, she was trying to save lives. What's wrong with that? Why do you get to stand on the moral high ground and denounce someone who was actually out there trying to make a difference? Her death was definitely unnecessary, but to have the gall to say that she was just a facilitator? What did she facilitate?

 

[Clashman]

Well, I've read "plenty of evidence" that leads to "by any accounts" an unfortunate accident where somebody willingly put themselves in a dangerous situation and lost the gamble.

Well fine then, let's have some courts decide on the matter then. Preferably an international court, as I doubt it would be a fair trial in either Israel or Palestine.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Just because you don't agree with her actions, doesn't mean she wasn't a hero. She gave her life for something she believed in. Rachel wasn't hurting anyone, she was trying to save lives.

From where I'm standing, she was only interested in saving palestinian lives, and not israeli.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing, but at least be accurate in her portrayal.

Her death was definitely unnecessary...

I agree, it was. Though it was her fault.

 

[Clashman]

Who says she wasn't armed? Since when does the military go by the assumption that the enemy isn't armed? When does the military assume that she either doesn't have a bomb strapped to herself, or that her "buddies" aren't waiting in ambush?

What a complete and total load of horseshit, Joe. Everyone knows what the ISM does, especially the Israeli military. Everyone knew they were unarmed.

This is what the military does. They "kill people and destroy things." This is not by accident, but by design. You get in the way of that, and more often than not, you're in trouble.

You don't "reason" with the military. You don't "test" them. You don't "get in their way." You, as well as her, don't seem to get this concept.

Once again, even though the military is trained to "kill people and destroy things", they have rules that they have to follow. And you can't just kill peaceful protestors. And if you do there should be repurcussions. You don't seem to get this concept.

 

[RussSchultz]

What did she facilitate?

Ummm, terrorism. Read up on what she was protecting. Houses that were used to tunnel between Gaza and Egypt to smuggle arms and explosives.

No doubt to be used for peaceful activism.

 

[Nathan]

I get the concept just fine, Joe. If there was that much of threat, why would you use a bulldozer? Why not blow it up from a distance? Instead they drove a really slow bulldozer all the way up to the building and slowly pushed it over. They must have really felt threatened by the small woman protesting against them to have used their high-tech bulldozer to do the job.

Why don't you stop lumping everything together under the umbrella of "military operations"? Any time someone blocks a soliders way, they should be killed, just because they choose to resist? How does your simplifed view of military conduct explain prisoners of war? Shouldn't we just kill them?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I get the concept just fine, Joe. If there was that much of threat, why would you use a bulldozer?

Because it's cheaper, less collateral damage, and less risky of things going wrong?

Any time someone blocks a soliders way, they should be killed, just because they choose to resist?

Obviously, you don't get the concept "just fine."

Any time someone blocks a solider's way, they should EXPECT that they have a high probability of being killed.

 

[Nathan]

Ummm, terrorism. Read up on what she was protecting. Houses that were used to tunnel between Gaza and Egypt to smuggle arms and explosives.

No doubt to be used for peaceful activism.

I guess you're right, Russ. I mean, they have so many houses that are sitting around empty because the Israelis have killed so many Palestinians. I bet no one even wanted that house. So, why not destroy it? There aren't any displaced Palestinian families that could have used it, afterall. It's really great how the already fantastic infrastructure in Palestine is being further improved by this war.

We should thank the Israelis for knocking down all the crappy houses. Maybe one day we'll be able to build a strip mall where they once stood.

All you choose to see are the perpetrators of this war. I wonder what the majority of Palestinians want most on any given day? Food, shelter, maybe? I don't get why you think she was on the Palestinians side? She was trying to help the people who are suffering from this war. If the Palestinians were flattening Israeli houses in the same systematic manner, I think she would have been helping them.

 

[Nathan]

Any time someone blocks a solider's way, they should EXPECT that they have a high probability of being killed.

And that makes it an accident? Get a grip.

 

[Clashman]

Any time someone blocks a solider's way, they should EXPECT that they have a high probability of being killed.

Ok, so maybe we should start having soldiers drive bulldozers through the lines of those abortion protests. If they don't get out of the way, it's their own fault if they get hurt. And heck, given anti-abortionists history of assassinations, bombings, etc, one could say they have alot more in common with terrorists than the ISM.







By the way, to those that think this is truly a valid means to deal with civil disobedience, a thousand s