In the memory of Rachel Corrie.

The reason it becomes "more fishy" to you is that nothing can shake you from the completely illogical belief that the IDF is totally innocent.

As we can see its not totally illogical. There is substantial reason to believe they editted out segments of the video (the stretcher seen for instance which more than likely did not happen in the manner they suggest). What is illogical however is your justification of palestinian behavior via nonsequitor wrt to the IDF.

So with each piece of evidence that mounts against the IDF, you become more and more convinced that it's just a huge conspiracy from his friends, family, and coworkers out to "get" the IDF.

The evidence doesn't "mount" against them. Infact its rather ambiguous. Especially with regards to the bullet path.

It's really ridiculous, and this is just one example of why it's almost always impossible to have a real dialog with you.

Not ridiculous at all. I would expect many of the same questions to come up at an inquery.
 
Shooting westerns, especially the press would be terrible for them.

Which is exactly why they would lie about the incident, saying that they were in a battle and that somebody else shot him.


What concerns me is that you are trying to use this matter to justify your feelings wrt to the palestinians - a nonsequitor.

I'm bringing it up because any problems British television journalists have getting their story heard by the Israeli government is magnified by a hundred times for Palestinains. Israeli soldiers can treat Palestinians however they want, without fear of recriminations. And they can tell even the most bald faced lies about it and be believed, because they can always pull the pretense of "fighting terrorism".
 
Legion said:
There is substantial reason to believe they editted out segments of the video (the stretcher seen for instance which more than likely did not happen in the manner they suggest).

Of course. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that they were too concerned with trying to keep him from dying to crank out the cameras, or that maybe the Israelis didn't permit them to film when they were up close, could it? It must be that they taped the entire fucking thing, which showed the Israeli soldiers acting with total compassion to the reporters wearing "TV" on their clothing and screaming "We're British", whom they had just shot. Then afterwards, these hateful liberal journalists went back and lied about the incident and destroyed all evidence that painted the IDF in a positive light. I'm so sure that's what happened....

What is illogical however is your justification of palestinian behavior via nonsequitor wrt to the IDF.

I wasn't justifying anything. I've pointed out the double standards to which people expect Palestinians to conduct themselves. Namely, they can't resist violently, because that's terrorism, and they can't resist in a non-violent manner that interpheres with what the IDF is doing, because that's "being a facilitator". Meanwhile, the Israeli government can kill over 2,000 Palestinians civilians without recriminations.

The evidence doesn't "mount" against them. Infact its rather ambiguous. Especially with regards to the bullet path.

Give me a break. The only thing missing is the Simpson DNA evidence, here. There's no way the IDF could have mistaken them for militants, and there's every indication that there was no battle going on at the time, which means that there is significant evidence that the Israeli military is lying about what actually happened, (as that's what they've claimed). There is no evidence that there was a Palestinian sniper in the area, and even if there was it makes no sense that they would target a British journalist making a film about children in Palestine instead of Israeli soldiers who were much closer, and much more a primary threat. It's just ridiculous.
 
Today is the one year since the murder of Rachel Corry. Some of them which has sent posts here has said thing like, it was an accident, she was protecting tunnels used to smuggle weapons, she was defending terrorists, irresponsible promoter of anti-American hatred and so on. Here comes a website that refutes all this lies coming from the Israelis.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2506.shtml
 
Of course. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that they were too concerned with trying to keep him from dying to crank out the cameras, or that maybe the Israelis didn't permit them to film when they were up close, could it?

It appeared to me the video kept recording even after the clip was cut. It seems to me they'd want video evidence.

I find it very convient of them to make accussations when they never recorded reaching the APC or they IDF troops' response apon the request for a stretcher. You have to admit, it helps paint an emotional picture to condemn the IDF when nothing has confirmed they were the shooters.

It must be that they taped the entire fucking thing, which showed the Israeli soldiers acting with total compassion to the reporters wearing "TV" on their clothing and screaming "We're British", whom they had just shot.

Again, we do not know for a fact the IDF shot them. We are also unaware of the distance they were from the APC, how the shooter could have render such a bullet path from the APC, or the rifle he was using. Let us not forget earlier on in the video they were discussing taking back allies to avoid sniper fire. Considering the IDF was there for the very reason of supressing the snippers i'd consider it very possible they could have been shot by said sniper.

Then afterwards, these hateful liberal journalists went back and lied about the incident and destroyed all evidence that painted the IDF in a positive light. I'm so sure that's what happened....

Certainly not outside of the bounds of the Reuters/EU reporting i have seen in the past with regards to Jenin...

I wasn't justifying anything.

It certainly sounded to me as though you were:

Clashman said:
If things are this difficult to come by for relatively "priviledged" British and American citizens, justice has to be next to impossible for Palestinians. It's no wonder that they think non-violence won't work.

I've pointed out the double standards to which people expect Palestinians to conduct themselves. Namely, they can't resist violently, because that's terrorism, and they can't resist in a non-violent manner that interpheres with what the IDF is doing, because that's "being a facilitator". Meanwhile, the Israeli government can kill over 2,000 Palestinians civilians without recriminations.

No, you suggested their decision to turn to violence is justified by their treatment assuming they have no other alternative.

Give me a break. The only thing missing is the Simpson DNA evidence, here.

oh come on. You are completely exaggerating based off your personal prejudice.

A lot of the material you have you can't simply assume the IDF shot James.

The bullet path is very important wrt to the origin of the bullet.

There's no way the IDF could have mistaken them for militants, and there's every indication that there was no battle going on at the time, which means that there is significant evidence that the Israeli military is lying about what actually happened, (as that's what they've claimed).

There isn't "every indication" Clashman. We don't see what happened before them approaching the APC because they don't show us. Futhermore, we have no evidence they were approaching the APC at all or for that matter the APC was firing on them. If James were approaching the APC as they claim how would he shot through his front left at an angle that would allow for the bullet to exit his lower back right shoulder? That would imply the shooter was considerably higher up then he was. In order for some one in the APC to shoot this man he'd have to be right above him as the APC does not stand 20 feet high. How was the APC positioned in relation to this man? How tall was James? Do we know? No, he have a darkened video that hasn't even the slight indication of muzzle flashes or tracer rounds. On top of this we know there were snipers in the area prior to the film crew's arrival.

There is no evidence that there was a Palestinian sniper in the area,

Are you telling me they swept every area for bullet casing? Don't be damn ridiculous. The probability of them find such a thing well after the event is ludicrously low. How on Earth can you claim there was no evidence Clash? What in the hell would be evidence of a sniper other than sniper fire?

and even if there was it makes no sense that they would target a British journalist making a film about children in Palestine instead of Israeli soldiers who were much closer, and much more a primary threat. It's just ridiculous.

It makes perfect sense. They are terrorists.
 
Maggi said:
Today is the one year since the murder of Rachel Corry. Some of them which has sent posts here has said thing like, it was an accident, she was protecting tunnels used to smuggle weapons, she was defending terrorists, irresponsible promoter of anti-American hatred and so on. Here comes a website that refutes all this lies coming from the Israelis.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2506.shtml


Except for the fact its doesn't refute anything. The bulldozers were there to destroy houses that acted as proxies for weapons entering into the area. the ISM was facilitating, using naive western protestors, the transportation of these goods. I highly doubt the ISM was ignorant of the transactions taking place there. I personally believe they are equally culpable. THe ISM needs to be disbanned and treated as any other terrorist supporting group.
 
Legion said:
It appeared to me the video kept recording even after the clip was cut. It seems to me they'd want video evidence.

I find it very convient of them to make accussations when they never recorded reaching the APC or they IDF troops' response apon the request for a stretcher. You have to admit, it helps paint an emotional picture to condemn the IDF when nothing has confirmed they were the shooters.

Again, we do not know for a fact the IDF shot them. We are also unaware of the distance they were from the APC, how the shooter could have render such a bullet path from the APC, or the rifle he was using. Let us not forget earlier on in the video they were discussing taking back allies to avoid sniper fire. Considering the IDF was there for the very reason of supressing the snippers i'd consider it very possible they could have been shot by said sniper.

First of all, they were referring to ISRAELI snipers. You know, the ones in the APC's???

Secondly, I was going to write a big long response to the rest of what you wrote, but I found an article that pretty much makes what I've been claiming official:

Edit, (forgot link): http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=404455
Autopsy Indicates Cameraman
Was Killed By Israelis

By Justin Huggler in Jerusalem

09 May 2003

The findings of an Israeli autopsy released yesterday indicate that an award-winning British television cameraman killed last week was shot dead by Israeli soldiers ? and not by Palestinian gunmen, as the Israeli army has suggested.

The Independent has seen television footage of the incident, which shows that claims by the Israeli army that there was a "massive" exchange of fire at the time are untrue.

James Miller was killed last Friday while filming a documentary in Rafah, in the southern Gaza Strip. He was best known for filming the award-winning documentary on life in Afghanistan under the Taliban, Beneath the Veil. The Foreign Office, international journalists' organisations and Channel Four television have called for an investigation into his death.

An autopsy at Israel's National Forensics Institute found that the only bullet to hit him entered his body from the front, and not from the back as the Israeli army claimed. That indicated that the bullet came from the direction of the Israeli soldiers Mr Miller was walking towards when he was killed.

The Israeli army has not disputed witness accounts that Mr Miller was approaching Israeli soldiers when he was shot ? on the contrary, it earlier claimed the bullet entered Mr Miller's body from behind, and that Mr Miller "may" have been shot by Palestinians.


Professor Yehuda Hiss, director of the National Forensics Institute, said: "The entry wound is in the front of the neck and the exit wound is in the back of the right shoulder. He was shot from front to back and left to right." The bullet was recovered and was being tested by Israeli police, he said.

The findings were released as Israel faces serious criticism over its handling of two earlier incidents in which British nationals were shot by Israeli soldiers. UN colleagues of Iain Hook, a UN worker shot dead by an Israeli soldier in Jenin last year, have accused the Israeli authorities of attempting to cover up his killing. And the parents of Tom Hurndall, a British peace activist left in a coma after being shot by an Israeli sniper in Rafah, have said they are unhappy with the investigation.

Mr Miller was in Rafah filming a documentary on the life of Palestinian children under the intifada, with Saira Shah, who he worked with on Beneath the Veil. On the night he died, he was filming Israeli soldiers demolishing a Palestinian house.

The Israeli army claimed there had been a heavy exchange of fire with Palestinian militants when Mr Miller was shot, and that its soldiers had come under fire from rocket-propelled grenades. Colonel Avi Levi, the deputy commander of the battalion involved, claimed: "We are speaking of a situation in which soldiers are under fire, under massive shooting from a number of sources, also from the area where the British TV crew was."

But footage filmed by an Associated Press cameraman, Taher Zeyara, shows that there was no firing when Mr Miller left the house he was filming from, with Ms Shah and a Palestinian translator, Abd al-Rahman Abdullah. There is total silence as the three walk towards the Israeli soldiers.


The journalists are clearly visible, holding up a large white flag and shining a torch at it. Fluorescent "TV" markings can also be seen on Ms Shah's bullet-proof vest. Without warning, there is a single loud shot. There is a second single shot, and then Mr Miller is heard yelling in pain. There is no sign of any exchange of fire.

So the Israeli military was claiming that they were under "massive fire from multiple directions" as the British crew came out. That is a complete and bald-faced lie. It just didn't happen. There is no way you can justify this.

And on that note, with regards to my "justification" of Palestinian actions, I have done nothing of the sort. I understand why they are doing what they're doing, and I can see how people could come to the conclusion that they need to take that course of action, but I don't condone it. In the same way that I understand why some people hate gays, or Jews, or Asians, or whatever. That doesn't mean that I feel it is justified. The only way their violence is justified is through international law granting people the right to violently resist an illegal occupation, which is what Israel is conducting at the moment. That justification only deals with attacks on soldiers, not on civilians, and so suicide bombs and the like would in fact be violations of international law, while throwing a grenade at an IDF convoy would not. And once again, that is not my belief. I they shouldn't be be shooting, bombing, rocketing, beating, stabbing the other. But with that I am consistent in applying the same standard to both sides, unlike those on this board who only want to apply those standards to Palestinians, while condoning Israeli violence.
 
First of all, they were referring to ISRAELI snipers. You know, the ones in the APC's???

:rolleyes: Are you so sure of that? If so why would they convey a need early on to avoid them?

The point still rests, the shot could have come from some one snipping from a raised position.

Secondly, I was going to write a big long response to the rest of what you wrote, but I found an article that pretty much makes what I've been claiming official:

Essentially you are going to repost much of what you have already stated with the desire to appear convincing. I will make points as i go along.


Autopsy Indicates Cameraman
Was Killed By Israelis

By Justin Huggler in Jerusalem

10 May 2003

The findings of an Israeli autopsy released yesterday indicate that an award-winning British television cameraman killed last week was shot dead by Israeli soldiers ? and not by Palestinian gunmen, as the Israeli army has suggested.

How did it confirms this? Infact, the man speaking wrt to the autospy stated the bullet did not confirm anything and that it could have come from a wide selection of 5.56 NATO rifles.

What evidence have they that proves it came from an IDF rifle let alone from the APC.

That indicated that the bullet came from the direction of the Israeli soldiers Mr Miller was walking towards when he was killed.

The Israeli army has not disputed witness accounts that Mr Miller was approaching Israeli soldiers when he was shot ? on the contrary, it earlier claimed the bullet entered Mr Miller's body from behind, and that Mr Miller "may" have been shot by Palestinians.

Again, i ask, how does it the trajectory indicate this? Where was the APC in relation to James in order cause the shooter to aim downwards at the target. The APC would have had to have been on a raised surface high enough (relative to the distance of james) such that the bullet would make a clean downward path that would hit him from his front left and pass under his right shoulder. There is no doubt in my mind James was not directly infront of the APC or even facing it.

Professor Yehuda Hiss, director of the National Forensics Institute, said: "The entry wound is in the front of the neck and the exit wound is in the back of the right shoulder. He was shot from front to back and left to right." The bullet was recovered and was being tested by Israeli police, he said.

He is part of the article you didn't put in bold.

The Israeli army claimed there had been a heavy exchange of fire with Palestinian militants when Mr Miller was shot, and that its soldiers had come under fire from rocket-propelled grenades. Colonel Avi Levi, the deputy commander of the battalion involved, claimed: "We are speaking of a situation in which soldiers are under fire, under massive shooting from a number of sources, also from the area where the British TV crew was."


The video cuts out all the material being filmed prior to their alledge aproaching the APC.

But footage filmed by an Associated Press cameraman, Taher Zeyara, shows that there was no firing when Mr Miller left the house he was filming from, with Ms Shah and a Palestinian translator, Abd al-Rahman Abdullah. There is total silence as the three walk towards the Israeli soldiers.

Exactly. It shows there was no fire when Miller left the house. It likewise doesn't show muzzle flashes or tracer rounds. There are no accounts for silencers.

Then there is the matter wrt to the shots fired. The news group would have us assume all shots were fired out them. How do we know this? How do they know this?

The journalists are clearly visible, holding up a large white flag and shining a torch at it. Fluorescent "TV" markings can also be seen on Ms Shah's bullet-proof vest. Without warning, there is a single loud shot. There is a second single shot, and then Mr Miller is heard yelling in pain. There is no sign of any exchange of fire.

Again there is no account made for the direction of fire. Viewers are made to assume the IDF was shooting at them all times we heard gun fire. Do we know this for a fact?

So the Israeli military was claiming that they were under "massive fire from multiple directions" as the British crew came out. That is a complete and bald-faced lie. It just didn't happen. There is no way you can justify this.

There are plenty of ways i can justify it. How do we know which direction the shots we heard were heading? I'd say the matter could easily contitute them taking fire.

And on that note, with regards to my "justification" of Palestinian actions, I have done nothing of the sort.

I saw you suggestion as justifying their behavior.

I understand why they are doing what they're doing, and I can see how people could come to the conclusion that they need to take that course of action, but I don't condone it.

I likewise dismiss such support allegations as mere, and typical, propaganda against isreal.


In the same way that I understand why some people hate gays, or Jews, or Asians, or whatever.

explain.

That doesn't mean that I feel it is justified. The only way their violence is justified is through international law granting people the right to violently resist an illegal occupation,

Illegal occupation? I'd say that's a matter with little or no legal merit. They are disputed terroritories not illegally occupied terroritories. The palestinians have no legal rights to it by the mere fact they rejected '48 borders.
 
First of all ISM IS NOT AN TERRORIST SUPPORTING GROUP. That is an Israelis lie. It is a human rights group trying to save Palestinians from grim actions from the worst terrorist moment in the middle east, the Israeli defense force, by standing in the way for their terrorist/war criminal actions.

The Israelis have not shown any proofs that this house were used in any weapon storing or that any of them who lived there has any connection with any terrorist movement. If they had any proofs they would have shown them.
This is all an Israeli lie.

This incident happened in Gasa. As you can read in the website in my previus post. “No Palestinian suicide bombers have come from Gaza in the past three years. Gaza is surrounded by a heavily monitored 52-kilometer (30-mile) electrified fence that keeps its 1.3 million impoverished Palestinians isolated from the world. Gaza is arguably the world's largest open-air prison, not a threat to Israeli civilians.â€￾

Even if it had been storages for weapons then theâ€￾ weapons that get through tunnels are only used in guerrilla actions against soldiers and settlers within the Gaza Strip, not against civilians within Israel.â€￾ In other words that weapons are only used for legal resistance against the occupation but not for terrorist actions. International laws permit armed resistance against hostile occupation, and therefore both Israeli soldiers and illegal settlers are legal military targets.
 
Maggi said:
First of all ISM IS NOT AN TERRORIST SUPPORTING GROUP. That is an Israelis lie. It is a human rights group trying to save Palestinians from grim actions from the worst terrorist moment in the middle east, the Israeli defense force, by standing in the way for their terrorist/war criminal actions.

Bullshit! They knew good and well that part of the shanty town was a weapons proxy. They knew good and well why the IDF was there.

The Israelis have not shown any proofs that this house were used in any weapon storing or that any of them who lived there has any connection with any terrorist movement. If they had any proofs they would have shown them.
This is all an Israeli lie.

What you mean to say is these are all Jew lies. Be honest. Lord knows there are plenty of arab citizens in Israel who share much the same opinion of these matters as the jews so lets be more specific.

This incident happened in Gasa. As you can read in the website in my previus post. “No Palestinian suicide bombers have come from Gaza in the past three years.

Irrelevant. The reason the IDF was there, as the ISM damn well knows, was to destroy the weapons proxies.

Gaza is surrounded by a heavily monitored 52-kilometer (30-mile) electrified fence that keeps its 1.3 million impoverished Palestinians isolated from the world. Gaza is arguably the world's largest open-air prison, not a threat to Israeli civilians.â€￾

Oh come on, they are impoverished mainly by their own making. No one forces them to be there. Just as no one forced them to side with Jordan in the '49 war. Its time they got over it and moved on.

Even if it had been storages for weapons then theâ€￾ weapons that get through tunnels are only used in guerrilla actions against soldiers and settlers within the Gaza Strip, not against civilians within Israel.â€￾

What kind of ass backwards reasoning is this? Do you think the IDF wants to be shot at?

Are you now admitting this area was a weapons proxy?

In other words that weapons are only used for legal resistance against the occupation but not for terrorist actions.

Illegal occupation my ass. What the hell are these people fighting against? Why haven't they moved on? Why can't they establish themselves? Because they haven't a will.

International laws permit armed resistance against hostile occupation, and therefore both Israeli soldiers and illegal settlers are legal military targets.

Oh stop rehashing this recycled crapola. These are disputed terroritories not illegally occurpied ones. The palestinian murders have no valid reason for what they are dong. They turned down the legal '49 borders with the desire to murder every jew in isreal. They gave up the legal right to those lands hense they are refered to as disputed.

http://www.jcpa.org/art/brief1-1.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_territories_occupied_or_not.php

Some very good points in this article. If Palis want to play the sovereignty game then Israel might as well consider Pali bombings an act of war therefore justifying their occupation for defensive purposes.
 
Legion said:
:rolleyes: Are you so sure of that? If so why would they convey a need early on to avoid them?

Perhaps because they wanted to convey that Palestinains don't enjoy being shot at by Israelis? This is pretty common sense, here.

How did it confirms this? Infact, the man speaking wrt to the autospy stated the bullet did not confirm anything and that it could have come from a wide selection of 5.56 NATO rifles.

What evidence have they that proves it came from an IDF rifle let alone from the APC.

First off, this is a different person than the ballistics report. This is an autopsy. The autopsy determined that the bullet had to enter through the front. The Israeli military had already admitted the Miller was approaching the APC, and had built their case upon their belief that the bullet had entered from the rear. Bullet entering front + Miller Approached APC= Miller was shot from the same direction as the APC.

Again, i ask, how does it the trajectory indicate this? Where was the APC in relation to James in order cause the shooter to aim downwards at the target.
Already covered.

The APC would have had to have been on a raised surface high enough (relative to the distance of james) such that the bullet would make a clean downward path that would hit him from his front left and pass under his right shoulder.

And if you look at the daytime footage of where he was shot, he was standing in a significantly depressed area relative to his surroundings. That plus the height of an APC would raise an Israeli shooter significantly above his level.

There is no doubt in my mind James was not directly infront of the APC or even facing it.

Sorry, but the Israeli military has already admitted that he was. You're arguing a moot point.

He is part of the article you didn't put in bold.

The Israeli army claimed there had been a heavy exchange of fire with Palestinian militants when Mr Miller was shot, and that its soldiers had come under fire from rocket-propelled grenades. Colonel Avi Levi, the deputy commander of the battalion involved, claimed: "We are speaking of a situation in which soldiers are under fire, under massive shooting from a number of sources, also from the area where the British TV crew was."


I didn't bold it, but this goes even further to prove my point. The Israeli military claimed this was happening while Miller was out there. That is clearly not the case.

The video cuts out all the material being filmed prior to their alledge aproaching the APC.

You're assuming that the only film shown to everyone else was that several minutes that's posted on the web, and not more. Furthermore, the Israelis have claimed they were under fire when that filming was occurring, not before. They claimed they were in a firefight with Palestinian gunmen when James was hit, with RPG's, anti-tank rockets, and machine gun fire. That is clearly not the case.

Then there is the matter wrt to the shots fired. The news group would have us assume all shots were fired out them. How do we know this? How do they know this?

Again there is no account made for the direction of fire. Viewers are made to assume the IDF was shooting at them all times we heard gun fire. Do we know this for a fact?

If there was a different gun firing from a different position, it would make a different sound. If it was the same gun firing from a different direction it would have a distinctly different sound. If it were the same gun fired from a different place it would sound different. The same gun in the same position will make a different sound depending on whether it was fired towards you or away from you. These shots were all obviously from the same gun at the same postion.

There are plenty of ways i can justify it. How do we know which direction the shots we heard were heading? I'd say the matter could easily contitute them taking fire.

No it couldn't, see my explanation above. If they were taking fire from elsewhere it would have sounded distinct.

I likewise dismiss such support allegations as mere, and typical, propaganda against isreal.

I never said you wouldn't. You view anything that criticizes Israel as propaganda, why would this be any different? Just because you view it that way doesn't mean you're correct.


I know people who've become Neo-nazis because they were beat up repeatedly by hispanics and asians in high school. I understand why they developed their views, but I don't condone it or believe in it myself.

Illegal occupation? I'd say that's a matter with little or no legal merit. They are disputed terroritories not illegally occupied terroritories. The palestinians have no legal rights to it by the mere fact they rejected '48 borders.

Well, if you want to play the 48 borders game, they could just as easily argue that the 48 borders were the result of an illegal occupation and land-grabbing as well. They could well argue that because the establishment of an Israeli state was an act of colonialism, their occupation is also illegal. I however, am going to base my argument on the numerous UN resolutions against Israel, regarding Israel as an occupying power, and thereby granting Palestinians the right to resist.
 
Legion wrote:

“These are disputed terroritories not illegally occupied ones.â€￾

No nation in the world admits the territories the Israeli took in 1967 as a part of Israel. Nearly all nations in the world and the UN regard this at occupied territories. So this is occupied territories. The rest of the land that Israel and Palestine are on are disputed territories. There was nothing that justified the establishment of Israel in 1948 so both the land the UN stole from the arabs to give to the Israelis and the land they captured in in the beginning are disputed territories.

Therefore the Palestinians have all the right to conduct a armed resistance against the Israelis and therefore the Israeli soldiers are legal targets for them.

By the way Legion. The house Rachel Corri was protecting was a family home but not a weapon house. Try to get it into your head, or do you have some proofs for that? It would probably be easier for the Palestinians to get weapons into Israel than into Gasa.

An also, no I am not admitting there where any weapons there. I Was just saying that those who help the Palestinians to get weapons, which Rachel Corri was not doing, is not doing any bad thing. It is a god thing to help the resistance of an occupied country to get weapons to fight the occupation. The Palestinians need more and better arms to fight the terrorist moment IDF.

They need missiles to shoot down Israelis F 16 and their helicopters and to blow up their tanks to save their own lives and their childes. The also need weapon to blow up Israelis bulldozers to save theirs homes from being destroyd.
 
Perhaps because they wanted to convey that Palestinains don't enjoy being shot at by Israelis? This is pretty common sense, here.

Or, more likely, attempting to add melodrama to issue to emotionally manipulate viewers.

First off, this is a different person than the ballistics report. This is an autopsy. The autopsy determined that the bullet had to enter through the front.

Your article says this:

Professor Yehuda Hiss, director of the National Forensics Institute, said: "The entry wound is in the front of the neck and the exit wound is in the back of the right shoulder. He was shot from front to back and left to right." The bullet was recovered and was being tested by Israeli police, he said.

Which confirms exactly what i was stating: a downwards path.

The Israeli military had already admitted the Miller was approaching the APC, and had built their case upon their belief that the bullet had entered from the rear. Bullet entering front + Miller Approached APC= Miller was shot from the same direction as the APC.

At what angle and from what direction? Did he change paths or not? That is what is important. If he didn't and was facing the APC then how did the APC sniper shoot him from his front left such that the bullet would have a downward path?

And if you look at the daytime footage of where he was shot, he was standing in a significantly depressed area relative to his surroundings. That plus the height of an APC would raise an Israeli shooter significantly above his level.

Except for the fact in the video they were moving toward the APC as they themselves suggested.

Sorry, but the Israeli military has already admitted that he was. You're arguing a moot point.

Nope sorry, valid point. The trajectory of the bullet must add up to the path of the bullet.

I didn't bold it, but this goes even further to prove my point. The Israeli military claimed this was happening while Miller was out there. That is clearly not the case.

Actually it demonstrates a downward path of the bullet from James' front left which was infact what i have been stating.

You're assuming that the only film shown to everyone else was that several minutes that's posted on the web, and not more.

No, you are assuming more footage exists. I am not assuming anything but simply discussing matters from the evidence they presented on their webpage.

Furthermore, the Israelis have claimed they were under fire when that filming was occurring, not before. They claimed they were in a firefight with Palestinian gunmen when James was hit, with RPG's, anti-tank rockets, and machine gun fire. That is clearly not the case.

Not at the time of the video no. Unless of coure you wish to assume ALL of those bullets fired were from the same shooter and heading in the direction of the TV crew.

If there was a different gun firing from a different position, it would make a different sound.

:oops: Are you suggesting that you are an expert on the the issue of sound propagation over distance as the matter relates to gun fire being recorded?

If it was the same gun firing from a different direction it would have a distinctly different sound.

I completely disagree with what you are suggesting and your capacity to judge how the gun would sound.

If it were the same gun fired from a different place it would sound different.

Oh? How much different? What were the conditions under which the sound was being recorderd?

The same gun in the same position will make a different sound depending on whether it was fired towards you or away from you. These shots were all obviously from the same gun at the same postion.

Again i disagree based on the simple fact its nearly impossible to guage how it would sound at 100 meters.

No it couldn't, see my explanation above. If they were taking fire from elsewhere it would have sounded distinct.

See my refutation above.

I never said you wouldn't. You view anything that criticizes Israel as propaganda, why would this be any different? Just because you view it that way doesn't mean you're correct.

No, I don't. I view it in terms of what actually happened. Often the AP and Reuters just completely misrepresent occurances.

I know people who've become Neo-nazis because they were beat up repeatedly by hispanics and asians in high school. I understand why they developed their views, but I don't condone it or believe in it myself.

Nonsensical response. How can you "understand" this irrational behavior?

Well, if you want to play the 48 borders game, they could just as easily argue that the 48 borders were the result of an illegal occupation and land-grabbing as well. They could well argue that because the establishment of an Israeli state was an act of colonialism, their occupation is also illegal. I however, am going to base my argument on the numerous UN resolutions against Israel, regarding Israel as an occupying power, and thereby granting Palestinians the right to resist.

I'd love to see how they would argue this and maintain their terroritories aren't disputed :LOL:

Israel's occupation is not illegal:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_territories_occupied_or_not

It is important to observe that, from the time these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel in 1967, the territories were not refered to as "occupied" by the international community. Furthermore, the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called "Palestinians" as they are today; they were called Jordanians and Egyptians. (In fact, before Israel was founded Jews and Arabs alike who lived in the region were called Palestinians. The newspaper was the "Palestine Bulletin" and later the "Palestine Post" before becoming today's "Jerusalem Post", the Jewish-founded electric company was "Palestine Electric" and so on.) There was no call for "liberation" or "national rights" for the Arabs living there and no Palestinian nation was discussed.

No UN resolution requires Israel to withdraw unilaterally from the territories, nor do they forbid Israelis from going there to live. In particular, the often-misquoted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (and related Resolution 338) make no such demand or requirement. The demand that Israel stop creating "illegal settlements" is similarly baseless.

Under the Oslo Accords, the "peace process" started in 1991 at the Madrid Conference, Israel agreed to withdraw from the disputed territories and Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) was given control over land chosen so that more than ninety-nine percent of the Palestinian population lived under the jurisdiction of the PA. But the committment to Israel's security that was the backbone of the Oslo agreements was never honored by the PA and Israel was forced to periodically re-enter the ceded territory to quell terrorism. In 2000, Yasser Arafat rejected sweeping concessions by Israel at Camp David -- promoted by US Pres. Clinton in an attempt to reach a final peace agreement -- and the Palestinian Arabs turned again to violence with the Al Aqsa Intifada. That is, after the PA was governing nearly all Palestinian Arabs and a generous peace offer with international backing was on the table, the only response Israel got was increased violence. This is the sole reason Isreal continues to have a military presence in the disputed territories.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_settlements.php

What is the background of Jewish settlements in Palestinian Arab areas?
History of Settlements
As documented on the page titled, "Why did Israel begin to move Jewish people into areas captured in the Six Day War?", Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and the Gaza Strip throughout recorded history, until the 1948 War of Independence, when they were forced to flee the invading Arab armies.

In Hebron, the Jewish community existed throughout the centuries of Ottoman rule, until the massacre during the Arab rioting of 1929. Such settlements as Neve Ya'acov and the Gush Etsion block were established under the British Mandatory Administration, which allowed Jewish settlement in these areas. Even though British Mandate Authorities, particularly in the latter period of the Mandate, were not sympathetic to the Zionist cause, they nevertheless permitted the establishment of Jewish settlements in all areas west of the Jordan River, implementing the League of Nations Mandate. In fact,the Mandate called for Jewish settlement in all of the areas under British control including the almost 80% of the Mandate land that the British gave to create Trans-Jordan and prohibited Jewish settlement there.

Why has Israel continued to expand settlements? Is this an obstacle to peace?
Israeli settlements in the so-called "occupied territories" are there for multiple reasons, including:

The land is disputed. Both Arabs and Jews have claims and since there was no other sovereign authority, Israel, representing the Palestinian Jews, had as much right to settle people there as the Palestinian Arabs. The last internationally recognized sovereign was the Ottoman Empire, a distant and oppressive ruler. Israel captured the West Bank land from Jordan that had overrun the land in 1948 when it had just emerged from the British Mandate. Gaza was captured from Egypt who had overrun it in 1948. There never was a Palestine or other country that Israel invaded and "stole the land"


There had been Jewish communities and dwellers in the West Bank long before 1967 or even 1948. In, for example, Hebron and Gush Etzion, both sites of massacres by Arabs in which large numbers of Jews were killed. Kfar Etzion and other villages in the Jerusalem-Bethlehem corridor, fell to Arab forces in May 1948 and those captured were massacred. Sons and daughters of Jews who lived there until 1948 were the first to return after the 1967 war. Why prohibit former residents or their families from returning?


The land belonged to Jews. Near Jerusalem, for example, Palestinians describe Gilo as a neighborhood built on "West Bank land annexed to Jerusalem" that they consider an "illegal Jewish settlement". Suddenly Gilo, an integral part of Jerusalem proper for years, seems subject to negotiation, at least in the public mind. As to the "illegality" of Gilo, the vacant land in the Gilo area was purchased, before World War II, by a group of young Jewish lawyers, including Dov Yosef, who later became one of David Ben Gurion's most important advisors and government ministers. When the land was taken back from the Jordanians in 1967, it was returned to its owners.


The so-called West Bank, according to the Bible and tradition, represents the cradle of Jewish civilization, and some Jews, driven by faith and history, wanted to reassert that link. The area was called Judea and Samaria, its name in the Bible, up until 1950 when Jordan, an Arab country created arbitrarily by the British out of 77% of the Mandate for Palestine, annexed it and called it the West Bank


The Israeli government believed that certain settlements could serve a useful security purpose as a buffer against future attacks like the ones in 1948, 1967, 1973


Some Israeli officials felt that building settlements, and thus creating facts on the ground, might hasten the day when the Palestinian Arabs, presumably realizing that time was not on their side, would talk peace
In most parts of the world it is not considered a disaster if someone new comes to town and buys a farm or a dwelling. Only in Arab parts of the Middle East is it an unacceptable affront for a Jew to arrive with plans to stay. And "world opinion" only accepts this sort of behavior when it is the Jew who is being rejected. If a black person is denied the right to buy a house in the community of his choice, it is considered racial discrimination. If a Catholic can't move into a Protestant neighborhood it is religious discrimination. And Americans, including Jews, are very careful to avoid any appearance of discrimination against Muslims. But if a Jew wants to buy a place to live in the West Bank, it is considered a brutal Israeli invasion. Mitchell Bard writes:

It would certainly be called racist if Jews were barred from living in New York, Paris or London; barring them from living in the West Bank, the cradle of Jewish civilization, would be no less objectionable.
And Eugene Rostow, former Under-Secretary of State for Political Affairs wrote:

The Jewish right of settlement in the area is equivalent in every way to the right of the local population to live there.
By violently rejecting Jewish settlement, the Palestinian Arabs are exhibiting behavior which is unacceptable, even dispised in the civilized world. In this they echo most other Muslim countries that have a prohibition on Jews living there, where land transfers to a Jew can carry the death penalty. These practices should be universally condemned and rejected. Arabs insist it is unacceptable for a few hundred thousand Jews to live among millions of Arabs while Israel's Arab citizens are almost 20% of Israel's population.

The Israeli government did not move to prohibit settlement (which would have required new laws) and, in fact, offered financial incentives to Jews to move to the territories. But these settlement communities did not exploit any Arab ownership or displace any Arab community or farm. The Jewish settlements have been established only on:

Land in pre-existing Jewish communities, or
Land that was unowned (that is, was previously controlled by Jordan and had no private owner), or
Land purchased from established owners.
The propagandistic idea of Palestinian Arabs being "forced out" is not the case. Much land was still empty or underutilized. Many Jews bought the land or dwelling they moved to. When public land was involved, Israeli settlements were established only after an exhaustive investigation process, under the supervision of the Supreme Court of Israel, designed to ensure that no communities were established on private Arab land.

A segment of a 1994 documentary "Road to Palestine" (Discovery Channel) focuses on the case of Mohammed Khatib, an Arab whose land was allegedly stolen by Israel for a "settlement" near Jerusalem. In fact, the land was taken by eminent domain for the development project, mostly from Jewish owners, several of them wealthy and prominent. The show emphasizes Khatib's claim to his land, implying the Israelis had disputed it and seized his property, but nothing of the sort occurred. His claims were valid and were the basis of compensation, same as his Jewish neighbors.

Since 1967, Israeli governments have maintained a willingness to withdraw from areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in a peace agreement with the Arabs, within the framework of UN Security Council Resolution 242. In such a case, it was commonly expected that at least some of the settlements would have to be uprooted, just as the Israeli town of Yamit was dismantled following Israel's 1979 peace agreement with Egypt. At Camp David in July 2000, Ehud Barak reportedly offered to uproot all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and the isolated settlements on up to 95 percent of the territory of the West Bank, as part of a final status agreement. The Palestinian Arabs rejected this offer.

Aren't the Settlements Illegal?
The settlements are not "illegal" as sometimes charged. The Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to settlements even though you will often hear the claim that it does. Israel took over the land in a defensive war in 1967 from rulers (Jordan, Egypt) who themselves had recently acquired control of the land by aggressive war. The only internationally recognized agreements are those of the Oslo process which do not in any sentence prohibit settlements. At some points in time Israel has voluntarily agreed to a temporary halt to new settlements in anticipation of negotiating breakthroughs. But the repeated reversion to terrorism by the Palestinian Arabs has ended such restraint. The endlessly repeated refrain about "occupied territories" is propaganda, since a) the territories never belonged to Palestinian Arabs, b) the Palestinian Authority was given control of the areas, and c) the only reason Israel continues to exert control is in reaction to Palestinian Arab violence.

The United Nations has frequently addressed the question of Israel's policies and activity of Israelis in the territories, starting with Resolution 242, passed right after the 1967 war. That Resolution seeks a just resolution of the conflict and calls for withdrawal and mutual recognition, but it says nothing about legality. Resolution 338, passed after the 1973 Yom Kippur war, requires Israel and the Arabs to negotiate peace. By insisting that the Palestinians negotiate with Isreal, the Security Council Resolution implicitly agrees that the occupation itself does not violate international law. Later Security Council resolutions - numbered 446, 452 and 465 - do indeed condemn Israel's policy of building settlements in the occupied territories and declare that these settlements have "no legal validity." However, these are political statements reflecting the balance of power in the UN and not a reasoned legal analysis. The Resolutions are not binding on Israel and do not of themselves create illegality.

At Camp David in 2000 and Taba in 2001 Israeli Prime Minister Barak offered to redeploy and uproot settlements from up to 95 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. Settlements in the remaining 5 percent of the West Bank ­­ where the majority (about 70%) of the settler population lives ­­are just over the arbitrary Green Line from Israeli cities and would be annexed to Israel and other land given in exchange. These were serious Israeli offers -- when Israel made peace with Egypt, settlements in the Sinai were dismantled. If settlements are the "real problem" then why was this offer unacceptable?

It would be very hard to find documented cases of actual exploitation of Palestinian Arabs in order to establish Jewish settlements, notwithstanding the tsunami of allegations. That is not to claim everyone is happy about everything that happened, but that is different from a cause that requires bloody violence and death. Eminent Domain cases, for example, cause hard feelings and local political fights in the United States and other countries all the time, but they are settled in courts or by elections. If unfair settlement practices by Israelis could be documented, then compenastion or other arrangements could have long since been disposed of by negotiation. Only insane fanatics resort to violence -- in a country with a real government, they are quickly suppressed.

Aren't the Settlements Illegal?

The settlements are not "illegal" as sometimes charged. The Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to settlements even though you will often hear the claim that it does. Israel took over the land in a defensive war in 1967 from rulers (Jordan, Egypt) who themselves had recently acquired control of the land by aggressive war. The only internationally recognized agreements are those of the Oslo process which do not in any sentence prohibit settlements. At some points in time Israel has voluntarily agreed to a temporary halt to new settlements in anticipation of negotiating breakthroughs. But the repeated reversion to terrorism by the Palestinian Arabs has ended such restraint. The endlessly repeated refrain about "occupied territories" is propaganda, since a) the territories never belonged to Palestinian Arabs, b) the Palestinian Authority was given control of the areas, and c) the only reason Israel continues to exert control is in reaction to Palestinian Arab violence.

The United Nations has frequently addressed the question of Israel's policies and activity of Israelis in the territories, starting with Resolution 242, passed right after the 1967 war. That Resolution seeks a just resolution of the conflict and calls for withdrawal and mutual recognition, but it says nothing about legality. Resolution 338, passed after the 1973 Yom Kippur war, requires Israel and the Arabs to negotiate peace. By insisting that the Palestinians negotiate with Isreal, the Security Council Resolution implicitly agrees that the occupation itself does not violate international law. Later Security Council resolutions - numbered 446, 452 and 465 - do indeed condemn Israel's policy of building settlements in the occupied territories and declare that these settlements have "no legal validity." However, these are political statements reflecting the balance of power in the UN and not a reasoned legal analysis. The Resolutions are not binding on Israel and do not of themselves create illegality.

At Camp David in 2000 and Taba in 2001 Israeli Prime Minister Barak offered to redeploy and uproot settlements from up to 95 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. Settlements in the remaining 5 percent of the West Bank ­­ where the majority (about 70%) of the settler population lives ­­are just over the arbitrary Green Line from Israeli cities and would be annexed to Israel and other land given in exchange. These were serious Israeli offers -- when Israel made peace with Egypt, settlements in the Sinai were dismantled. If settlements are the "real problem" then why was this offer unacceptable?

It would be very hard to find documented cases of actual exploitation of Palestinian Arabs in order to establish Jewish settlements, notwithstanding the tsunami of allegations. That is not to claim everyone is happy about everything that happened, but that is different from a cause that requires bloody violence and death. Eminent Domain cases, for example, cause hard feelings and local political fights in the United States and other countries all the time, but they are settled in courts or by elections. If unfair settlement practices by Israelis could be documented, then compenastion or other arrangements could have long since been disposed of by negotiation. Only insane fanatics resort to violence -- in a country with a real government, they are quickly suppressed.
 
No nation in the world admits the territories the Israeli took in 1967 as a part of Israel. Nearly all nations in the world and the UN regard this at occupied territories. So this is occupied territories. The rest of the land that Israel and Palestine are on are disputed territories. There was nothing that justified the establishment of Israel in 1948 so both the land the UN stole from the arabs to give to the Israelis and the land they captured in in the beginning are disputed territories.

Funny, accept for the fact that resolution 242 does not call them illegal occupations.

Notice, "no nation of the world" complained when Jordan illegally occupied the west bank in 49-67. This would more than likely be do to the fact the palestinian group didn't exist at those times. They were simply refered to as Jordanians, because that was infact what they were.

Therefore the Palestinians have all the right to conduct a armed resistance against the Israelis and therefore the Israeli soldiers are legal targets for them.

Funny they didn't do the same with their Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian occupiers :rolleyes:

Sorry, there is no legal validation of the lands being illegaly occupied. Resolution 242 and 338 do not refer to the land as illegally occupied.


By the way Legion. The house Rachel Corri was protecting was a family home but not a weapon house.

And where was this family to protect their own home? Don't see them in the picture with her as shew stood alone.

Try to get it into your head, or do you have some proofs for that? It would probably be easier for the Palestinians to get weapons into Israel than into Gasa.

And try to get it inot your head the ISM will continuously claim there were no bombs there depite any evidence presented. Their position should be see and compliance with terrorism and likewise support.

An also, no I am not admitting there where any weapons there. I Was just saying that those who help the Palestinians to get weapons, which Rachel Corri was not doing, is not doing any bad thing. It is a god thing to help the resistance of an occupied country to get weapons to fight the occupation. The Palestinians need more and better arms to fight the terrorist moment IDF.

They are indeed doing a bad thing. They have no valid or legal right to those lands and not a single UNISEC resolution validates their mrder of IDF troops. Therefore i feel it is perfectly acceptable for the IDF to tear down these terrorists' homes.

They need missiles to shoot down Israelis F 16 and their helicopters and to blow up their tanks to save their own lives and their childes. The also need weapon to blow up Israelis bulldozers to save theirs homes from being destroyd.

Oh please, they want to save their children? Stop preaching them death proganda and jew-hate.

They render themselves valid military targets and provides for the IDF's actions against them.
 
Legion writes:

“Stop preaching them death proganda and jew-hate.â€￾

Condemning Israelis war crimes has nothing to do whit jew-hate. I don´t hate jews but I condemn war crimes and the Israelis grim actions on innocent people in Palestine. They are conducting war crimes there every day. Since the second indifata began they has killed at average 3 Palestinians a day and they are nearly all innocent, not terrorists as the Israelis say. The Israelis are simply killing any Palestinian to revenge a suicide bombing as a collective punishment an so they spin op a story about that persons terrorist activities. They don´t show any proofs for that and sadly nobody is claming one from them.

And Legion. Stop that BS that this is not an occupied area. Most of the condemning of the international community against the Israelis apartheid wall comes from the fact that a big part of is outside the green line. That it is in the occupied Palestine. It is also the reason why the settlements are illegal by international law.

All the areas outside the green line is a Part of Palestine and Israelis presence there is occupation. That is why when a Palestinian kills Israelis soldier it is the same thing as when people in Germany occupied countries in world war two killed a German soldier. There are no difference between those two things what so ever. They who did or do that are not terrorists or murders, they are freedom fighters.

Legion and others Israelis supporters talk about the suicide bombing as the roots of the violent there. That is wrong. The suicide bombing is the symptom of the problem but not the root. The root of the problem lies in the occupation, the illegal settlements, the Israelis refusal to permit the Palestinians refugees abroad to go back to theirs homes and of course the cruelty of the Israelis occupation.

If the international community wants to solve the problem they can not do that by acting on the symptom, the suicide bombings. That will not solve the problem but only make it easier to live with it.

If the international community wants to solve the problem it has to act on the roots. They have to act against the Israelis who started the whole thing with the occupation, is maintaining it and is conducting most of the violence. They have killed three to four times more innocent people than the Palestinians last three years.

What the international community has to do is to force the Israelis to leave all the occupying areas and all the settlements, and to permit all the refugees to go back home. Furthermore it has to force the Israelis to pay the Palestinians compensations for the grim occupation all this time and to handle all Israelis war criminals to the international court.

If the international community does that then there might be a ground for peace in the middle east. It is not a guaranty for that but it will never be peas without that. There is no way to get peace by agreement with no justice. This is justice.
 
In contrast to Rachel's death, how do people feel about the missionaries who've been killed in Iraq? Sad waste of life or morons who deserved what they got for knowingly entering a war zone?
 
John Reynolds said:
In contrast to Rachel's death, how do people feel about the missionaries who've been killed in Iraq? Sad waste of life or morons who deserved what they got for knowingly entering a war zone?

Neither.

First of all, I said Corrie's death (as in most cases) was indeed tragic. It's just that she bears significant responsibility for her own death. So try and dispense with the bullshit, and don't try and characterize an opposing view point to yours as sometihng that it isn'.t.

Secondly, I don't know the complete circmstances behind the missionaries' death (drive-bys...correct me if I'm wrong.) Directly confronting the military is a wee bit different than "minding your own business, and getting shot by someone a passing car."

That being said, purposely putting yourself in a "war zone" places a little bit of responsibility on the missionaries for their own death. Said another way, anyone going to Iraq with the belief that there is no risk of being killed, is just kidding themselves.

I would certainly rate Corrie's responsibility for her own death orders of magnitudes higher than the missionaries.

Does that answer your question?
 
Clashman said:
How about civilian contractors working for the CPA, then?

Let me make myself clear.

Anyone who willingly goes to Iraq, and deosn't believe there is a more than insignificant risk of getting killed, is not accepting reality. You therefore have to accept some level of real risk that you can be killed.

You elevate the risk (and therefore level of responsibility) orders of magnitude higher if while in Iraq, you decide to purposely confront "the enemy" in some way.
 
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