If you were Nvidia .....

[centerofadmiration]

And you were approached by Sony in the year 2002 and asked to build a next generation GPU and then given by Sony the specifics that your processor should be capable of ( Sony would know considering Ken Kutaragi's engineering expertise ), what would you do.

I'm asking, because I'm wondering what IF Nvidia didn't even mimic much about the G71 architecture ( did they even have it planned out in 2002? ) and went a completely different route for the entire architecture of the RSX.

Things to note.

Way back in 2002 Sony most likely told them they would fabricate the processor at the 90nm process. Way back in 2002 Nvidia knew it would be going alongside the Cell processor and connected via the FlexIO.

What would you do as Nvidia if you were building the RSX with the above knowledge? Knowing the processor would have to be built to last, knowing it would be 90nm, knowing it would be in the next generation possibly 100 million unit selling Playstation 3 and knowing it would sit alongside the Cell processor.

 

[aaaaa00]

Way back in 2002 Sony most likely told them they would fabricate the processor at the 90nm process. Way back in 2002 Nvidia knew it would be going alongside the Cell processor and connected via the FlexIO.

Actually way back in 2002, Sony probably told you that you would be fabricating at 65 nm then mention that CELL won't be needing a GPU anyway. (I kid I kid)

 

[dukmahsik]

i doubt nvidia was really involved at 2002

 

[BlueTsunami]

i doubt nvidia was really involved at 2002

They were involved with Sony, just not working on the GPU

 

[Brimstone]

What would you do as Nvidia if you were building the RSX with the above knowledge?

Jen-Hsun Huang would slowly lean forward in his chair, and look Ken Kutaragi right in the eye and say, "Kutaragi-san, your CELL needs a Chaperonin!".

 

[centerofadmiration]

Actually it has been since 2002.

The announcement of them working together came in December 2004, and they officially said they had been working together on the GPU for 2 years.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/571/571598p1.html

Firstly, how long has NVIDIA been working with Sony on this collaboration?

David Roman: NVIDIA has been working on aspects of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.'s next generation system for the past 2 years.

How did NVIDIA become involved with working with Sony? Which party approached whom?

David Roman: Difficult to say. We have been talking to Sony about very many different projects from the early days of starting NVIDIA.

 

[aaaaa00]

Actually it has been since 2002.

The announcement of them working together came in December 2004, and they officially said they had been working together on the GPU for 2 years.

David Roman: NVIDIA has been working on aspects of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.'s next generation system for the past 2 years.

"working on aspects" could mean anything. CG compiler for CELL. Tools and support. Licensing technology. Doesn't necessarily mean they were working on RSX per se.

But anyone not under NDA don't really know for sure either way.

 

[centerofadmiration]

Oh come on. I think its the most obvious thing in the world that hes talking about the GPU

fine heres the actual press announcement.

“We are thrilled to partner with Sony Computer Entertainment to build what will certainly be one of the most important computer entertainment and digital media platforms of the twenty-first century,â€￾ added Jen-Hsun Huang, president and CEO, NVIDIA. “Over the past two years NVIDIA has worked closely with Sony Computer Entertainment on their next-generation computer entertainment system. In parallel, we have been designing our next-generation GeForce GPU. The combination of the revolutionary Cell processor and NVIDIA’s graphics technologies will enable the creation of breathtaking imagery that will surprise and captivate consumers.â€￾

The custom GPU will be manufactured at Sony Group’s Nagasaki Fab2 as well as OTSS (joint fabrication facility of Toshiba and Sony).

There. You guys act like Nvidia and Sony never actually came out and ever said they were working together

But anyway, my original question was if you were Nvidia and asked by Sony to build a 90nm processed GPU for the PS3 what would you actually do with the processor? Just curious.

 

[ROG27]

"working on aspects" could mean anything. CG compiler for CELL. Tools and support. Licensing technology. Doesn't necessarily mean they were working on RSX per se.

But anyone not under NDA don't really know for sure either way.

The idea that NVidia was working on a CG compiler for CELL is moot. I remember either a Dean or nAo saying that cell does not use CG, but rather a C based compiler and was never intended to use CG. This would mean they certainly would have been working on something GPU related.

 

[Iron Tiger]

Oh come on. I think its the most obvious thing in the world that hes talking about the GPU

fine heres the actual press announcement.



There. You guys act like Nvidia and Sony never actually came out and ever said they were working together

But anyway, my original question was if you were Nvidia and asked by Sony to build a 90nm processed GPU for the PS3 what would you actually do with the processor? Just curious.

Actually, it looks like he's going out of his way to NOT mention the GPU, which leads a lot of people to believe that they weren't actually contracted to work on the GPU until much later.

And like aaaaa00 said, way back in 2002, Sony would have been promising 65nm. If they could actually deliver that, then they truly probably wouldn't have needed a GPU partner at all. Having CELLs at half the size means you can throw two in there, and the cost of linking two of them together plus a ROP chip would probably cost less than making a board that interfaces one 90nm CELL with a wholely dissimilar 90nm GPU.

 

[Titanio]

I remember either a Dean or nAo saying that cell does not use CG, but rather a C based compiler and was never intended to use CG.

Did they? I took from their most recent comments that it would be neither shocking nor surprising if there was a Cg compiler for Cell - but that it would probably be developed by Sony, mainly at least (Cg is open source, you can create versions for anything if you wish).

 

[akira888]

If they could actually deliver that, then they truly probably wouldn't have needed a GPU partner at all. Having CELLs at half the size means you can throw two in there, and the cost of linking two of them together plus a ROP chip would probably cost less than making a board that interfaces one 90nm CELL with a wholely dissimilar 90nm GPU.

A theoretical PS3 with two Cells, or for that matter eight or sixteen running in parallel, would be stomped in the dirt by the Cell/RSX combo in any rendering application. Even the most basic graphics operations such as interpolating a texture coordinate or color across a scanline or taking a filtered sample from a texture would choke a conventional CPU. This is why the Quake software renderer only corrected texture coordinates for perspective once every eight pixels on both axes, and why it only employed point sampling.

Example: try running UT with the Pixomatic software renderer. On both my Pentium D 830 and my Athlon 64x2 4400 performance is slightly worse than an old 90's era 3dfx card, and with lower quality. Granted, Pixomatic was designed to render environments that are described by D3D or OGL, and as such it lacks higher-level data about the scene that the old software renderers used to optimize performance (such as BSP-trees). But even so, the conclusion is unavoidable - software realtime rendering is practically dead for commercial projects.

 

[PiNkY]

I don't think nvidia was too forward leaning this console generation considering that the resources they devoted towards nv2a developement propably allowed ATI to take considerable market share from them. I'd wager that it was the other way round this time with ATI pouring considerable engineering resources in xenos/broadway allowing nvidia to take back the performance crown in the pc market by devoting all their resources to nv40/g70...

 

[Platon]

The question is not what Nvidia would do, but rather what Sony asked for. You shouldn\t forget that Nvidia really doesn\t make all that much money from this deal, atleast compaired to what they earned on the xbox1 deal with MS...

 

[ROG27]

A theoretical PS3 with two Cells, or for that matter eight or sixteen running in parallel, would be stomped in the dirt by the Cell/RSX combo in any rendering application. Even the most basic graphics operations such as interpolating a texture coordinate or color across a scanline or taking a filtered sample from a texture would choke a conventional CPU. This is why the Quake software renderer only corrected texture coordinates for perspective once every eight pixels on both axes, and why it only employed point sampling.

Example: try running UT with the Pixomatic software renderer. On both my Pentium D 830 and my Athlon 64x2 4400 performance is slightly worse than an old 90's era 3dfx card, and with lower quality. Granted, Pixomatic was designed to render environments that are described by D3D or OGL, and as such it lacks higher-level data about the scene that the old software renderers used to optimize performance (such as BSP-trees). But even so, the conclusion is unavoidable - software realtime rendering is practically dead for commercial projects.

I think we all knew this way back in '95. Sony is not stupid. They knew this as well. I'm sure once they saw the technical benifits enjoyed by the xbox1 they were all over gpu manufacturers like ati and nvidia looking for a partner. They found what they were looking for with nvidia. That is not to say they never envisioned a gpu utilizing spes or some sort of CELL technology. It is more than likely Nvidia have been working on a GPU with Sony for approximately 3 years now.

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

I need a couple of things before I interject:

If I were Nvidia I'd try to make the most amount of money for the least amount of work/cost.

 

[speng]

LOL Alpha Spartan....

I say lets just wait a couple of months for more details...we'll find out soon enough.

Speng.

 

[ROG27]

I need a couple of things before I interject:

If I were Nvidia I'd try to make the most amount of money for the least amount of work/cost.

That is the goal of every business venture.

 

[function]

That is the goal of every business venture.

The way that people can idolise console manufacturers (all of 'em) you wouldn't think so!

 

[nelg]

Oh come on. I think its the most obvious thing in the world that hes talking about the GPU

fine heres the actual press announcement.



There. You guys act like Nvidia and Sony never actually came out and ever said they were working together

But anyway, my original question was if you were Nvidia and asked by Sony to build a 90nm processed GPU for the PS3 what would you actually do with the processor? Just curious.

Here is the thing, Nvidia would not go to any lengths to devote resources to any project for a second party without a contract. They would not go so far as to design a GPU on a hand shake. As a publicly traded company nV has an obligation to report any and all material business dealings in a timely manner.