IBM backstabbing sony and neglected Apple ? (long read)

[Titanio]

Honestly, i think Cell usefullness as a Game processor is being blown out of proportion.

And a more useful alternative would be..?

No chip is perfect. Everything's a tradeoff. Unsurprisingly, I disagree with you on its usefulness for games, as do most devs implicitly or explicitly, who I've seen discuss their next-gen CPU requirements - that mesh quite well with what you'd expect Cell to excel at. More people on messageboards seek to downplay it than the opposite IMO.

The whole "suitability for games" thing is a desperate mess borne out of MS's post-E3 damage control, to be quite frank.

 

[blakjedi]

Makes a lot of sense actually. But I don't understand why Sony would be upset, Cell is superior in just about every way to 360's CPU...

AfAICS only in float maths... not every way.

 

[mesyn191]

Article sounds like BS, its been known for years that IBM's designs have been heavily automated and reuse lots of logic between chips. Heck they advertise that they do this so as to minimize time to market and development costs...

 

[Tahir2]

Am I stating the obvious or have you guys looked over the fact that Cell is not the PPC core.. or the PPE.

Cell is a combination of the PPE and SPE's as well as the architecture that surrounds it. XBOX360 has a completely different design.

As to why Kutaragi was demoted.. please look at Sony's current position financially and the cost of PS3. Kutaragi is not a legal expert and the contract between Sony and IBM would have very little to do with him on the school of law side.

One of the best ways to find out if something is bogus or not is to look at the person posting the information, then how it is presented and then the actual information.

A journalist with that many typo's and grammatical errors? "Pull the other one, it's got bells on it."

 

[Alpha_Spartan]

The whole "suitability for games" thing is a desperate mess borne out of MS's post-E3 damage control, to be quite frank.

I thought it was a perfect complement to Sony's BS PowerPoint presentation. It was all a matter of one company comparing their console's strengths to the other console's weaknesses.

Call it damage control or whatever, but I think it was appropriate.

 

[Carl B]

Am I stating the obvious or have you guys looked over the fact that Cell is not the PPC core.. or the PPE.

Cell is a combination of the PPE and SPE's as well as the architecture that surrounds it. XBOX360 has a completely different design.

Actually, yes - you were stating the obvious!

But whether you consider the XeCPU and the Cell to be similar or completely different depends mainly on your point of view.

As to why Kutaragi was demoted.. please look at Sony's current position financially and the cost of PS3. Kutaragi is not a legal expert and the contract between Sony and IBM would have very little to do with him on the school of law side.

Actually I doubt that has anything to do with the 'demotion.' He almost became head of the company you know? It has as much to do with Idei's 'last act' as it does with Ohga's behindthe scenes influence. Idei felt that he had to break the compnay free from Ohga and the 'old ways' in a period of reinvention, which is why he chose Stringer as his successor. If Ohga had had his way, Kutaragi would have been CEO. (Ohga was/is Sony chairman) So, Idei won out and there was some shuffling around. I don't hink Kutaragi will ever attain the CEO-ship now, because Chubachi and some others seem like they might be fast-tracked under Stringer, but Kutaragi is still crucially important to the company - and his 'level' of power is seen by the fact that he answers to Stringer directly. There's a good Fortune article from a couple of months back that addresses the political power plays that went into shaping the current executive team post-Idei.

One of the best ways to find out if something is bogus or not is to look at the person posting the information, then how it is presented and then the actual information.

A journalist with that many typo's and grammatical errors? "Pull the other one, it's got bells on it."

Yeah the article seems bogus, that we can agree on.

 

[mckmas8808]

And a more useful alternative would be..?

No chip is perfect. Everything's a tradeoff. Unsurprisingly, I disagree with you on its usefulness for games, as do most devs implicitly or explicitly, who I've seen discuss their next-gen CPU requirements - that mesh quite well with what you'd expect Cell to excel at. More people on messageboards seek to downplay it than the opposite IMO.

The whole "suitability for games" thing is a desperate mess borne out of MS's post-E3 damage control, to be quite frank.

This quote I can agree with. Why wouldn't the CELL chip be great for gaming? A question I still can't get an answer for.

 

[therealskywolf]

And a more useful alternative would be..?

No chip is perfect. Everything's a tradeoff. Unsurprisingly, I disagree with you on its usefulness for games, as do most devs implicitly or explicitly, who I've seen discuss their next-gen CPU requirements - that mesh quite well with what you'd expect Cell to excel at. More people on messageboards seek to downplay it than the opposite IMO.

The whole "suitability for games" thing is a desperate mess borne out of MS's post-E3 damage control, to be quite frank.

Sure, Cell is the all around perfect Chip for everything. lol Get real man, that's why Apple switched to cell and said that Cell was better than Power PC and that's why IBM's is replacing Power PC for Cell Tech.

Cell is the Perfect chip for what Toshiba plans to do with it, a multimedia PRocessor, Video, sound, whatever editing etc IT's

And people often forget that one of the main points of attraction of Cell is the "Multi CPu" architecure it allows to in the big Picture. You can really get some amazing results when you have multiple Cells in a Workstation.

PS3 is 1 Cell. And of Course some devs (Not all mind you, there's quite a few that really don't care about Cell, you'll mainlly hear japanese devs praising it to no end) will say it's amazing, if not only for it's unique architecture.

Overall i'm kinda tired of this whole Cell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xenon thing, it's so overblown...lol that when you actually get to speak with some people that actually work with these things it's like, a whole new world when compared to how overblown it is in people's posts on the net.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sure, Cell is the all around perfect Chip for everything.

That whole post was really hitting the bottom of the barrel. Titanio said at the very beginning no processor is perfect and didn't mention Cell being better at evrything, and you respond with this?? If I could give bad rep...doh, you're a foulsome redsquare anyway.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Now for the sad truth. SONY/Toshiba contributed NOTHING to PPE design.

Which goes totally against all the info we have on this matter. Both Sony and Toshiba have their own chip design capabilities, know what they're talking about, and helped design a compromised solution between IBM's perfect console chip idea and Toshiba's perfect multimedia chip idea.

 

[mckmas8808]

Which goes totally against all the info we have on this matter. Both Sony and Toshiba have their own chip design capabilities, know what they're talking about, and helped design a compromised solution between IBM's perfect console chip idea and Toshiba's perfect multimedia chip idea.

Thanks for telling the truth. PCE had me scared for a second. I was actually believing him.

 

[PC-Engine]

Which goes totally against all the info we have on this matter. Both Sony and Toshiba have their own chip design capabilities, know what they're talking about, and helped design a compromised solution between IBM's perfect console chip idea and Toshiba's perfect multimedia chip idea.

What are you talking about? SONY/Toshiba had almost NOTHING to bring to the table except some eDRAM tech, some process tech, and some vague ideas about using many small simple math cores in Force Project or some such. In fact SONY has no CPU design experience whatsoever that's why they hired a former NEC supercomputer processor architect. Toshiba only licenses MIPS cores and fabs them. They've not designed any CPU based on their own design. Everybody knows IBM did the bulk of the *actual* design for the CELL chip while SONY/Toshiba came up with some concepts that had not even been proven. Heck look at the EE, it's just a MIPS core with VU tacked on. It's measely cache size proves they didn't know what the hell they were doing. Now you're saying IBM needed their awesome CPU design skills???

Thanks for telling the truth. PCE had me scared for a second. I was actually believing him.

The truth? Says who? Where's the proof?

 

[Carl B]

What are you talking about? SONY/Toshiba had almost NOTHING to bring to the table except some eDRAM tech, some process tech, and some vague ideas about using many small simple math cores in Force Project or some such. In fact SONY has no CPU design experience whatsoever that's why they hired a former NEC supercomputer processor architect. Toshiba only licenses MIPS cores and fabs them. They've not designed any CPU based on their own design.

The truth is we don't know what they brought to the table, or how many engineers they commited. They are both fairly secretive companies in general, and to boot we all speak English and IBM is based in the US - thus our press tends to speak/interview IBM engineers as opposed to Sony/Toshiba engineers. (And IBM *does* love to toot their own horn!)

Whatever the case, Kutaragi was the overall head of the project, enough so that he could scrap the entire early design-build in 2001 or 2002, or whenever it was.

The only information we get on Sony and Toshiba's contributions come from Japanese publications, and I think it stands that the Cell - being more important to both Sony and Toshiba really than to IBM - must have had Sony and Toshiba very active in it's development.

It's all conjecture on my part, but I think it's grounded in logic. You can no more easily prove that they had a weak role in the processor design than I can prove the opposite right now.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

CPU design isn't just a case of designing the transistor layouts. There's working out the whole process architecture, interaction and data pathways of the memory accesses, etc. Of course I've no proof to back this crazy whacked-out idea of mine, but I doubt Sony and Toshiba's engineers at IBM sat around drinking coffee and talking about the latest series of '24' while the IBM engineers busied around designing the chip.

 

[PC-Engine]

FWIW both Hitachi and NEC have very nice CPU designs based on their own ISAs. Can't say the same for SONY/Toshiba.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Designing a new ISA is a wste of time if there's already existing IPA's that do the job. Why reinvent the wheel when someone's already got a perfectly good which with a few customizations makes an ideal wheel for your uses? Sure Sony and Toshiba could have demanded a brand new IPS for Cell incorporating their own designs, and then written a whole load of new compilers and tools from the ground up, to create a processor made of various logic circuits the same as every other that adds, multiplies, and bit-shifts values held in registers the same as every other, but needs new instructions to achieve that, but what's the point? If PPC is serviceable and well known then go with it. What logical reason is there not to do it that way?

 

[Titanio]

Sure, Cell is the all around perfect Chip for everything.

If you say so. I certainly didn't. In fact I explicitly said it was not, like any chip.

Note: Reading is fundamental.

lol Get real man, that's why Apple switched to cell and said that Cell was better than Power PC and that's why IBM's is replacing Power PC for Cell Tech.

Cell is PowerPC.

Citing Apple does not make much sense in the context of a discussion about its suitability as a processor for games - the point you yourself raised - unless Apple has a secret games console planned we don't know about. Again, reading is fundamental (this time, with regard to your own posts).

Cell is the Perfect chip for what Toshiba plans to do with it, a multimedia PRocessor, Video, sound, whatever editing etc IT's

Yeah, because Toshiba was the lead partner in this venture. And PS3 is not Cell's raison detre.

And people often forget that one of the main points of attraction of Cell is the "Multi CPu" architecure it allows to in the big Picture. You can really get some amazing results when you have multiple Cells in a Workstation.

Or with one Cell in a system

And of Course some devs (Not all mind you, there's quite a few that really don't care about Cell, you'll mainlly hear japanese devs praising it to no end) will say it's amazing, if not only for it's unique architecture.

Read again. Some devs have explicitly expressed enthusiasm re. Cell - and why their nationality has anything to do with this is beyond me, but no, not just Japanese devs - but more importantly perhaps is the justification of STI's design choices that is implicit in the way most devs have talked about how they plan to use power beyond one core next-gen. Most of things devs want more power for mesh with the things Cell targets very well indeed - at least amongst those devs that I have seen discuss this issue. Even amongst the expressed plans of those that have been less than keen about how unique Cell is.

Overall i'm kinda tired of this whole Cell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Xenon thing

Then don't make posts that you know will bait people into this argument - an argument you so thoroughly fail to follow up upon effectively. You haven't provided a proper response to my questions, and your above post simply supports the theory that the quality of a post declines in proportion to the number of "lol"s present. I should make a graph some day, I really should.

 

[blakjedi]

The truth is we don't know what they brought to the table, or how many engineers they commited.

This is logically true considering that we know this was joint venture.

It's all conjecture on my part, but I think it's grounded in logic.

The bolded part is true overall for most posts on this board. Not that its bad or wrong but sentiment and conjecture usually takes the place of facts here.

You can no more easily prove that they had a weak role in the processor design than I can prove the opposite right now.

Probably not true. PC Engine is correct in his assertion about ISA/chipset design proven from various companies. IBM, NEC, and Cray are known to build the worlds most powerful machines based on their own technology. Sony and Toshiba arent. That said the real argument is if Toshiba and Sony and were so capable, why would they need IBM at all?

Toshiba wants DSPs, Sony wants an easy to use core... why not take a highend MIPS chip and tack toshibas SPEs to it? Or why not design a whole new chipset? Because they do could not do it as well as IBM could. The superiority of IBM in this regard is CLEAR.

The article isnt rubbish BTW I have heard from more than a few at my friends at UBS and Goldman that Apple was pissed with IBM for the exact reasons stated there.

I also still dont think XeCPU is what IBM really wanted in a console... but I dont think MS wanted to pay for IBM's vision either. A dual xenon (6 PPE with VMX)WOULD be better than a Cell BTW... but costly.

 

[mckmas8808]

IBM, NEC, and Cray are known to build the worlds most powerful machines based on their own technology. Sony and Toshiba arent. That said the real argument is if Toshiba and Sony and were so capable, why would they need IBM at all?

Toshiba wants DSPs, Sony wants an easy to use core... why not take a highend MIPS chip and tack toshibas SPEs to it? Or why not design a whole new chipset? Because they do could not do it as well as IBM could. The superiority of IBM in this regard is CLEAR.

But that still make what PCE said true. IBM is superior in a way like you said, but lets not forget that the team is called "STI". Everybody put something up and everybody should get credit. Sony and Toshiba should not be looked apon as some guys that threw some ideas up and they stuck. This belief is horribly wrong.

 

[Carl B]

Probably not true. PC Engine is correct in his assertion about ISA/chipset design proven from various companies. IBM, NEC, and Cray are known to build the worlds most powerful machines based on their own technology. Sony and Toshiba arent. That said the real argument is if Toshiba and Sony and were so capable, why would they need IBM at all?

Well, I'll do my own bolding now for a moment.

In fact, they almost did go it alone (read that 'origins of' link) - so again we're back to square one in a sense. Also being companies that specialize in 'DSPs' as such does not inherently make them poor contributors to the project. Let me ask you, do you consider the SPE's elevated DSP's or dumbed down complex cores? There's a middle ground here somewhere, and it's a middle ground where I could definitely see Toshiba and Sony's expertise in their own respective areas of chip design as having contributed to the overall design in very significant ways.

Also you mention chipset - but since it's really Rambus tech which is the key kynchpin of the chipset (if indeed chipset is what you meant), I don't see how it's anything beyond what Sony and Toshiba would normally be capable of - both very familiar with Rambus afterall.

Toshiba wants DSPs, Sony wants an easy to use core... why not take a highend MIPS chip and tack toshibas SPEs to it? Or why not design a whole new chipset? Because they do could not do it as well as IBM could. The superiority of IBM in this regard is CLEAR.

Well Toshiba wanted to do just that - so the superiority wasn't clear, IMO.

The article isnt rubbish BTW I have heard from more than a few at my friends at UBS and Goldman that Apple was pissed with IBM for the exact reasons stated there.

I also still dont think XeCPU is what IBM really wanted in a console... but I dont think MS wanted to pay for IBM's vision either. A dual xenon (6 PPE with VMX)WOULD be better than a Cell BTW... but costly.

Most on this board probably know my disdain for analysts at this point; I unfortunately can't make an exception for your friends. But do feel free to post their views/experiences, and we can discuss as we would anything else.