HTML5 on consoles

[patsu]

HTML5 does not mandate an external JavaScript engine. You can run JavaScript in a standalone language runtime in HTML4 also.

If firmware 3.5 provides a standalone JavaScript run-time for other apps to use, it'd be good news. May be PS Home can use it too since they tried to use Java in a never released version.

EDIT: The HTML5 JavaScript API is more advanced (e.g., supports drag and drop, local cache, 2D graphics, ability to play audio and video, cross document messaging, etc.) but in HTML4, you can call plugin APIs to perform specific functions, like play/pause video, and manipulate HTML elements too.

We know at this point that some video providers like NetFlix support multiple devices and clients. We can't say if they want existing clients to switch. The Blu-ray players use Java to render 2D graphics, basic HTML to layout the UI, and H.264 to stream the videos. AppleTV uses native code. I have no idea what PS3 uses but it's difficult to conclude that HTML5 is the only approach at this point. It could be, but we need more evidence (or someone should leak 3.50 SDK )

 

[scooby_dooby]

You can kludge a HTML5 work alike with much effort or you can use HTML5 and easily write an application..

Huh? So the addition of Canvas and a native Video tag somehow make you able to "easily write an application?".

At the end of the day, you're talking about Javascript.

To "easily make an application", you need a decent framework, a good IDE, that sort of thing. HTML5 brings none of this.

If true, this is nothing more than capitalizing on a marketing buzzword. There's no practical reason to be touting a "HTML 5" application, other than exciting gullible consumers.

 

[scooby_dooby]

(e.g., supports drag and drop, local cache, 2D graphics, ability to play audio and video, cross document messaging, etc.)

All of which sounds totally appealing for a console based experience....NOT!

(I know you know.)

 

[patsu]

It might ! Like creating a 2D Home UI.

Other examples may include:

* Standard compliant web browser

* APIs/mashups for integrating with game servers. Titles like Killzone, Uncharted, Gran Turismo, LBP, Xi (Playstation Home), and more have their own web portals. By integrating the web experiences into XMB or even the lobby, the users can hook up with the communities better. It's probably easier to evolve the web experiences based on the communities' needs than to update a native app.

If designed properly, something like PS Home can integrate all these game communities consistently together because they are all HTML5 based. e.g., Have a trophy or virtual items HTML5 app for betting, exchange, etc.


As a standalone app development platform, HTML5 is good but may not fully realize its potentials.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It might ! Like creating a 2D Home UI.

Other examples may include:

* Standard compliant web browser

* APIs/mashups for integrating with game servers. Titles like Killzone, Uncharted, Gran Turismo, LBP, Xi (Playstation Home), and more have their own web portals. By integrating the web experiences into XMB or even the lobby, the users can hook up with the communities better. It's probably easier to evolve the web experiences based on the communities' needs than to update a native app.

If designed properly, something like PS Home can integrate all these game communities consistently together because they are all HTML5 based. e.g., Have a trophy or virtual items HTML5 app for betting, exchange, etc.


As a standalone app development platform, HTML5 is good but may not fully realize its potentials.

Agreed, HTML5 acceptance by users is needed to drive web development. IF Google is providing the browser/code all 38 million PS3s will be HTML5 compliant.

Example: The following is a Slideshow with a demo of HTML5 features with source code

http://slides.html5rocks.com/#slide1

But you must be using a HTML5 browser to view it! Geo-location tools and Google earth implemented with three lines of code and Video with a few lines.

The PS3s would then become a platform to demonstrate HTML5 and Google services. 38 million HTML5 browsers will drive WEB Development.

RE: Netfront to upgrade the PS3 browser; unlikely as support for 3-D will be in the browser; quote of Sony;"3-D from a browser within a year" and that was 5-6 months ago. YouTube (Google) is displaying 3-D and Google will support it with their browser.

And it's another indication that work on a new browser is on-going, 6-7 more months and we will have a browser that can support 3-D (probably less).

Tools from a WEB-KIT can be used to support WEB applications....I believe 3.5 contained a partially active/partially completed WEBGL WEBKIT so that HTML5 tools could be used for WEB Apps. A WEBKIT browser not HTML5 is the big news, it provides a kit of WEB tools that can be used as is, it does not have to be complete before use. HTML5 just makes it easier to write a web streaming application. But HTML5 comes with a modern webkit browser so proving one implies the other.

patsu touched on what HTML5 would give to PS3 applications like Home but not what WEBKIT provides. The biggest is that the entire browser does not need to load to support WEB features in a game, only the routines needed.

 

[scooby_dooby]

It might ! Like creating a 2D Home UI.

Other examples may include:

* Standard compliant web browser

* APIs/mashups for integrating with game servers. Titles like Killzone, Uncharted, Gran Turismo, LBP, Xi (Playstation Home), and more have their own web portals. By integrating the web experiences into XMB or even the lobby, the users can hook up with the communities better. It's probably easier to evolve the web experiences based on the communities' needs than to update a native app.

If designed properly, something like PS Home can integrate all these game communities consistently together because they are all HTML5 based. e.g., Have a trophy or virtual items HTML5 app for betting, exchange, etc.


As a standalone app development platform, HTML5 is good but may not fully realize its potentials.

I thought we were talking about a video streaming application?

And I'm not sure it would be easier to manage a web experience, rather than update a native app. In fact, I'm almost positive it would be much more of a headache.

@Jeff - You are suffering from some major confusion. WebKit does not provide a framework for developing applicaitons, nor does OpenGL have anything to do with enabling application development.

Where are you getting this stuff?

It really doesn't matter how many consoles support HTML5, you are still going to have 40% of users on IE8 or less. Clients can't commit to using Javascript/Canavs without some sort of Flash based fallback, and that will be the case for years. And all that does is double (or quadruple) their budget. For what?

The budget of any Javascript based application would likely be at least 3x the equivalent flash/flex project. And in today's current landscape, you would have to do both, if you want to reach everyone.

I know, for whatever reason, some people are in love with "HTML 5", just like "Web 2.0" from a couple years ago. But can we retain some semblance of reality here?

 

[patsu]

The advantages of a web environment are easier user generated content management (for community development) because you can rely on existing legal, security and user practices. The common run-time also allows easier cross integration if designed well. Yeah, we are talking about streaming video, for some apps, the line may blur a little (e.g., watching clan replays).

I am also wondering if we can do a GaiKai type of environment e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The advantages of a web environment are easier user generated content management (for community development) because you can rely on existing legal, security and user practices. Then common run-time also allows easier cross integration if designed well. Yeah, we are talking about streaming video, for some apps, the line may blur a little (e.g., watching clan replays).

I am also wondering if we can do a GaiKai type of environment e-v-e-n-t-u-a-l-l-y.

Well you mentioned integrating multiple web portals, using HTML5 API's. This would introduce a ton of external dependencies, with 3rd parties using bleeding edge API's and technologies. Sounds like a headache to me.

I'd think a native app, the integrates with existing portal api's would be much more smooth to both setup and maintain.

 

[patsu]

Yeah, a closed portal is definitely cleaner and easier to run. A HTML5 client may be easier to evolve compared to a native client, even for a closed portal.

When I bring up integrating multiple game portals, it'd be for a common game platform like Home. Today, each space and mini-games are downloaded as a native client module. They are very rigid. It should be possible to bring in say, a KZ2 "portlet" into Home for some of these game promo spaces --especially a 2D version. They should save the resources for building/running static 3D buildings for more useful services and UI.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I thought we were talking about a video streaming application?

The original thrust of the discussion I started was how to determine if a WEBGL WEBKIT browser was being ported to the PS3 and parts of the HTML5 and/or Javascript webkit active in the PS3 after Firmware update 3.5.

Recently HULU, MLB and Netflix have provided applications for the PS3 and they all state that they are using HTML5. The day after PS3 firmware 3.5 all (except Netflix which was released the day of 3.5) applications required updates that reduced the size of the application 7-12 megs each. My belief is that a javascript engine was in the stand alone HULU and MLB applications pre 3.5 and the updated applications now use a javascript engine provided by PS3 firmware update 3.5 and it may be a Google V8 engine.

Webkit browsers are new and all support HTML5. Most handhelds and the PS3 will use a WEBGL webkit browser. The Xbox now supports HTML5. This is the reason why HTML5 was chosen by HULU, NETFLIX, ESPN3, MLB......

BUT how to prove HTML5 or WEBKIT is being ported to the PS3?

 

[patsu]

Wait for Sony to announce it !

I checked out Hulu Plus last night. Didn't have time to look at the network requests and responses. In some ways, it does feel like the original PS Store (i.e.., like a rich HTML client). That's not good enough to conclude that it's built on HTML5. Otherwise, we'd be able to say HTML5 was available in 2005 to run the PS Store client.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Wait for Sony to announce it !

I checked out Hulu Plus last night. Didn't have time to look at the network requests and responses. In some ways, it does feel like the original PS Store (i.e.., like a rich HTML client). That's not good enough to conclude that it's built on HTML5. Otherwise, we'd be able to say HTML5 was available in 2005 to run the PS Store client.

If/when the user interface dramatically changes without the size of the HULU application changing? HTML5 can create a protected file on the Hard disk of 7 megs, 10 megs for IE and this is where the downloaded Javascript UI is stored.

Eventually HULU will use a feature we know is NEW and not in HTML5 and we will have proof.

Oh, Playon (playon.com) is now streaming HULU (free PC version) and every other site it supports to handhelds using HTML5. So you can setup PLAYON on your home PC and it will stream to your cellphone or ipod/ipad anywhere there is a WIFI or cell connection. This includes local media.

 

[jeff_rigby]

This post needs to be deleted

 

[patsu]

I'll give you this much to work with however. Sony sent me a survey today that appears to show that they have a greater interest in extending the PSN into other services. Things like Paypal, Ebay, Amazon, last.fm, pandora, facebook, netflix, just to name a few were heavily covered in this survey. Wish I had thought to write down the complete list, but the majority (25+ entries) were all web related services. Some of which would be better served (easier served) by not using native code and using the solutions you (outlined) provided. Hopefully other users got the survey and can provide you with more information.

I didn't get the survey, but I can give Sony more info. ^_^

The "what" doesn't really matter here. The "how" does.

Most of Sony's Internet integration effort (YouTube uploading, Google search, Facebook Gallery and API) are too fragmented and have very little impact. Figure out the right way to integrate the existing apps first, put them in the right context (e.g., Specialized GoogleTV search is probably more relevant than the generic Google Search XMB icon we have now; it would also unify all the different video rental/purchase services on PS3). Come up with a unify way to link them with common use cases (e.g., View photos on PCs)

 

[patsu]

Interesting development since we talked about Qriocity above:
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2010/10/20/sony-movie-channel-launches-in-usa/

Sony Movie Channel, the first U.S. multi-platform television network from Sony Pictures Television (SPT), is now available on DISH Network, DIRECTV and AT&T U-verse TV on linear as well as on authenticated VOD and online platforms. Offering uncut and uninterrupted theatrical releases in stunning high definition, Sony Movie Channel showcases titles from Sony Pictures’ vast library, including award-winning features, cult favorites, family comedies and gripping dramas.

...

Through carriage deals with DISH Network, DIRECTV and AT&T U-verse TV, Sony Movie Channel will be available as part of HD programming lineups to subscribers nationwide. Sony Movie Channel is located in the HD Platinum package on DISH Network channel 386, in DIRECTV HD Xtra Pack on channel 563 and in the AT&T U-verse HD Premium Tier on channel 1791. DISH Network will offer Sony Movie Channel in free access for one month to all subscribers beginning Oct. 18. Sony Movie Channel will also be available on DishOnline.com and as VOD content to subscribers of its HD Platinum package.

EDIT: Sony Movie Channel has a website: www.sonymoviechannel.com

 

[jeff_rigby]

Interesting development since we talked about Qriocity above:
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2010/10/20/sony-movie-channel-launches-in-usa/

EDIT: Sony Movie Channel has a website: www.sonymoviechannel.com

Things Sony and Cross Platform IP:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=16154&N=4294966502&XID=O:sony:dg_brand_gglsrch:slpc#/overviewTab

ONE-TOUCH TREASURE.
Convenience is yours at the push of a button. For quick access the internet without booting up the operating system, press WEB. Press VAIO to launch Media Gallery, built-in Sony software that lets you enjoy your photos and music in a whole new way. Need help? Just press the ASSIST button for instant troubleshooting and maintenance software (select models).

How is that accomplished? Mini-Chrome OS?????? Anyone know about this feature?

 

[patsu]

Probably boots a different OS.

There are PCs on the market today that can boot into Windows and Linux for malware protection reason (restore from Linux into Windows). They can probably install a WebOS if they want to.

 

[NeoTechni]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/21/sony-considers-incorporating-android-into-more-as-yet-unnamed/

 

[patsu]

May be for PSP Phone ?

Also if it's running Adroid, it runs the risk of:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/22/sony-google-tv-booted-into-recovery-mode-are-we-days-away-from/

If it's running Android it has a root, and if it has a root some modder will find it. The Sony Google TV is most certainly running a flavor of Google's little OS and so it too is just waiting to be cracked open. While that hasn't happened yet, Android Forums and xda-developers member Apeman has managed to get us one step closer.

...

 

[jeff_rigby]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30224/Analysis_Apple_Heading_Toward_A_Gaming_Collision_Course.php

"Apple said it's making major inroads into the competitive portable gaming market. Jobs claimed the iPod Touch "has become the most popular portable game player in the world. The iPod Touch outsells Nintendo and Sony portable game players combined."

"Apple (Gaming) TV?

Where the company is not quite ready to go, however, is into games on a television. It also revealed the latest iteration of its Apple TV device, which was never a hit in the past -- but the new one is a slick, cheap little box which will allow users to stream rented movies and TV shows and access Netflix and YouTube.

This will eat into console makers' market share only inasmuch as the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, and Wii enjoy life as Netflix boxes, which is mostly a secondary use of these devices. Of course, Sony and Microsoft sell video content on PlayStation Network and the Zune Marketplace, which could also be a minor vulnerability.

However, as Mike Capps commented to Gamasutra in our interview immediately following the event, "Right now, I can display from my iPad to my Apple TV on a big screen TV. How far away are we from ,'That's my game console, and it's displaying wirelessly to my television set?' It's not far away."

While Apple is making a more focused play for the living room with its revamped Apple TV, the slightly subtler detail is that the device is tremendously interoperable with the company's other devices -- you can stream pictures, music, and video to the Apple TV from a Mac, and you can also do the same from an iPhone or iPad. The point is: Apple is creating an infrastructure for and a compelling use case around connecting all of its devices together.

This increases the attractiveness of becoming an all-Apple household, of course, but it also invites tremendous speculation about how long we can expect games to be excluded from the party, now that they're such a big, big part of the company's iOS device strategy.

What will that mean? What form will it take? How soon will it come? All unanswerable. But Sony, Nintendo, and even Microsoft are all officially on notice as of today. "

Apple and other mobile platforms like Android might change the big three in gaming consoles faster than people think.

Xbox is integrating game-playing through the Xbox from/with Windows 7 mobile platforms.

Sony MUST implement new features to the PS3 and new hardware platforms similar to Apple's and Microsoft's Windows 7 - Xbox.

My read on what is needed for Sony to stay relevant :

1) Webkit and WebGL graphics calls must be integrated into the PS3 so that Android platforms can play through the PS3 into the home TV
2) New Sony hardware platforms like a redesigned PSP using Android and WebGL; rumored PSP Cell Phone.

My understanding is the handheld becomes the front end/user interface and webGL commands are sent to the PS3 (in this example) which renders and displays the frame. Google already splits the Chrome browser into two parts for "security reasons" and does not allow direct control of the GPU from within Chrome. WebGL graphics commands are passed to the platforms (PS3) OS for execution. The PS3 has Open GL ES support built in. So to implement this scheme a shell would have to be running to pair with a handheld device and pass commands to the PS3 GPU. Everything already appears to be in place with the "Security split" in Chrome.

The security split seen in Google Chrome is too useful for it to be used just to isolate the GPU from other processes. It also creates a hit in display performance that could be justified if handheld control of console graphics was part of Google's vision. Remember Android is targeted at the handheld platform market.

There are just too many coincidences......