HTML5 on consoles

[jeff_rigby]

Not necessarily on PS3. I just think a common software platform would benefit a Sony ecosystem across console, handheld, CE devices and mobiles. I don't think a truly open platform will be considered unless Sony see themselves profiting from hardware sales, willing to make less on software license fees in favour of popularity of Sony TVs and phones once again. It must be disappointing for the company synonymous with bestest TVs and consoles to have their standing so diminished. But on PS3 I don't think the financial situation is there to accomodate Android, and sticking with native apps with right interface protocols for connecting to content servers should be enough to see this generation out.

Although maybe custom FW PS3's will get an Android port anyhoo

But they are so behind.....an already established easy to use and write for platform is needed to allow breathing room to complete the ecosystem platform. That is my only reason for talking Android.

Could Android be digitally signed.....sold in a PSN store?

 

[patsu]

The ecosystem will probably happen at a higher level. e.g., Playstation Network + Qriocity. HTML5 may help for high level app development.

From Sony's perspective, they need to take care of Blu-ray home theater, TV, game consoles, cellphones altogether. A single OS for all of them would be nice, but I doubt they can pull it off within such a short time. They need like 10 years or more.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The ecosystem will probably happen at a higher level. e.g., Playstation Network + Qriocity. HTML5 may help for high level app development.

From Sony's perspective, they need to take care of Blu-ray home theater, TV, game consoles, cellphones altogether. A single OS for all of them would be nice, but I doubt they can pull it off within such a short time. They need like 10 years or more.

RE third party Apps: How long did it take Apple? It's been two years since the Sony stockholders meeting where the cloud computing and digital ecosystem was announced. I'm guessing Apple started two years before that so Apple has been doing this for 4 years and Sony talking it for 2 years but I can't see any progress in the US other than the PSN store and others streaming to the PS3.

Platforms in other products like blu-ray players and TVs have been for the most part provided by others with some custom work by Sony in the firmware.

I find it strangely ironic that one of the examples I used in a discussion with Shifty about the lack of a "professional" quality Media player front end app in the PS3, for example a Music player is used as an example in the Snap documentation. The documentation explains how to scroll Album artwork and use the artwork for selecting an Album to play. (I pointed out the PS3 was missing libraries that would make it easy to create an app and SQLite being one of those. SQLite is part of the PD libraries in the developer program. Prior to the discovery of the Sony SNAP program the only place I saw SQLite and other routines needed to provide a third party app was via Android, Air 2.5 or HTML5 javascript. I assumed Air was going to be used for apps and Shifty was convinced they would be native language. He was at that time correct but it may turn out I was if the SNAP program turns that way.)

Social media and ecosystem support for Sony CE products: You and I have speculated on uses for web tools just recently ported to the PS3 and now in Sony 2011 blu-ray and TVs (Opera & HbbTV provided by Opera) as well as 2010 Google TV products (Google provided Android and Chrome) . And yes I agree that; "The ecosystem will probably happen at a higher level. e.g., Playstation Network + Qriocity. HTML5 may help for high level app development. Moving media around sharing pictures between cameras and other Sony CE devices may already be in place and awaiting a turn-on or completion of server software. Stretching your statement are you talking javascript apps on the PS3 both on-line and off-line? We all agree that cloud served javascript apps for other than media are probably going to be used in addition to Sony native language like the PSN store. OFF line and ON-line javascript is possible and could be used as a temporary solution to the lack of third party apps. Sony provided only?

Games and social networking support for games: This appears to be on track with higher level support mentioned above as well as with the PS3 and coming products like the new Cellphone and PSP2. Again others are getting their products to market before Sony. I have to wonder why....

 

[jeff_rigby]

I don't know if this belongs in the HTML5 thread but it's HTML5 related.

The internet is merging/being incorporated in TVs and CE devices. It is being driven by CE companies and Media companies seeing a new revenue stream in the Home TV. There are multiple standard for displaying/providing services and media to TVs and CE devices and this is an attempt to reference and outline Sony choices over the last two years. To do this I will also reference other industry options.

The PS3 is both a game console and Media Platform with blu-ray player and Internet streaming media (IPTV and media like Netflix and Qirocity.). The choices Sony use to support the above on Sony TVs and blu-ray players will most likely follow through to the PS3.

You can reference this information directly here: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/48652448/Folie-1

Currently various solutions using Web technologies are or will be available on TVs:

Open IPTV Forum DAE / HbbTV-CE-HTML (Sony 2010 Open standards)
Yahoo! Widget Channel (2008 Sony)
Panasonic VieraCast
Sony Applicast (2009 Sony)
JavaFXfor TV
Opera TV Widgets (Sony 2011 when Opera supports HbbTV open standards)
W3C (TV) Widgets
Microsoft Mediaroom
HTML 5

From the above as an outsider it appears as if Sony can't make up it's mind as to how it is going to support or present Internet Media and services in thier CE products as just about every year they choose a different method.

Yahoo! Widget Channel (2008 Sony)
Sony Applicast (2009 Sony) Sony written and provided
Open IPTV Forum DAE / HbbTV-CE-HTML (Sony 2010 Open standards) Sony compiled and provided
Opera TV Widgets (Sony 2011 when Opera supports HbbTV open standards)

But the last two are open source and most likely indicate Sony's future plans for their CE products including the PS3. The PS3 will probably not have an Opera browser, the front end is not important, the thrust is a browser and HTML5, widgets and HbbTV standards.

Key statement:

There won’t be a single way or technology to represent Web content and Web based services to the user!

Widgets / Packaged Applications will play a key role on service representation on the screen and on application deployment because of easy deployment and offline availability Yes

Just the full integration of Web, content and telecommunication services will enable a true convergence. Ongoing developments in the Web community (HTML 5) must not be forgotten Yes

The Open IPTV Forum DAE /HbbTV–A DeclarativeApplication Environment forTVs

CE-HTML (CEA-2014) as common ground
Extensions towards interaction with Live Broadcast
Interaction with standardized Telco services possible –IMS/NGN
Currently extensions with W3C widgets are under discussion for both the OIPF DAE as well as in HTML 5 proposed in OIPF as an additional technology for presenting content and services

W3C / DAE (TV) Widgets

Widgets are persistent web applications that can often replace cumbersome native applications and make using internet based services on a device more convenient

Widgets are usually run on user agents referred to as Widget Engines. Widget engines display widgets and in many ways mimic the behavior of Web browsers.

DAE Widgets are a specialization of standard DAE applications. DAE Widgets are inspired by (and mainly based on) W3C Widgets

In the same manner as Web page Widgets can be created for multiple platforms in a single step

Yahoo went on from what we saw in 2008 Sony products to broaden their support to include Flash and a full development IDE for CE companies. It's proprietary and would cost $ for Sony to include it in the PS3 but it would fill a need seen with the on hold SNAP program.

Chance of this in the PS3 I'd guess low. Sony can write their own widgets for the PS3 as they already have plans for a webkit browser for the PS3. Flash support for games and more complex applications is free from Adobe with Air or with Flash 10.1 in a browser and costs for IDE Adobe development tools is now 1/10 of what it was last year or about $200 a toolkit.

Yahoo! WidgetChannel

Uses embedded webkit (open Apple browser engine) for HTML support
Includes Adobe Flash 9 for flash in widgets
Offers a Widget development SDK for TV
Widget Channel API provides access to popular Internet technologies such as Konfabulator(JAVASCRIPT and XML), and HTML

Yahoo! Widget connecting to Open IPTV Forum / ETSI TISPAN infrastructures

Access to:

IPTV User Profiles
Active IPTV Sessions
(Rich) Presence Information

Enabling:

Cross domain community scenarios with full OITF clients and proprietary clients
Allows registration and content requests
Integration of FOKUS Smart IPTV Recommendation engine Competence Center

Microsoft Mediaroom–Is the Media Presentation Foundation
technically outclassing CE-HTML, Widgets and plain Web on TV?

The Media Presentation Foundation (MPF) is a new way of programming applications for the Microsoft Mediaroom Platform:

Applications are built as Web applications (ASP.NET)
The developing lifecycle is fully integratedinto the standard IDE (VS 2008).
Application deployment is as easy as deploying a stand alone application or web page

Of course we have a HTML5 Browser being ported to the PS3, this is just a subset of the opening Open standard that Sony is following for CE equipment. Chance for this as a minimum 100%.

HTML 5 –A more open technology for IPTV user front ends?

Today some parts of HTML 5 overlap things defined in the DAE/HbbTVspecifications:
<video>, <audio>
Server sent DOM events
Other HTML 5 features may be interesting Web database, Web storage, Offline web applications

Lack of alignment with HTML 5 is one of the frequent criticisms from web people towards IPTV standardization bodies. Some suggest to consider removing the reference to CEA-2014 and align with HTML....

 

[JPT]

I wonder how this is going to be interpreted

http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/01/22...ity-debuts-in-france-germany-italy-and-spain/

Qriocity is Sony's "streaming/on demand" platform, seems there is no need to have Android on the PS3 to support it....

I wonder if they wanted to have support for online services across all devices, if not ChromeOS would be a better fit, then again I do not know anything about the technical difference between ChromeOS and Android.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I wonder how this is going to be interpreted

http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/01/22...ity-debuts-in-france-germany-italy-and-spain/

Qriocity is Sony's "streaming/on demand" platform, seems there is no need to have Android on the PS3 to support it....

I wonder if they wanted to have support for online services across all devices, if not ChromeOS would be a better fit, then again I do not know anything about the technical difference between ChromeOS and Android.

Just as with the PSN Store, Sony has native applications on all their products. Portability between platforms is via "C" so while allot of IP (Intellectual Property) work is directly transferable much work for each platform is needed.

Since Sony will want Qriocity on multiple other platforms I would suspect some other method will be used for them. HTML5? Flash? IS this being used for the PS3 also? I don't know as here in the US we have not seen Qriocity on the PS3.

Best guess would be the same as Vudu as it , of the IPTV streaming apps, is closest to the Qriocity videos I've seen.

As to third party applications, I've been looking for widget control of home automation and more. This is simple to write and provides extreme benefit/cost in time for developers. Cheap UPnP products will be hitting the US in 2011.


Check out the product scenarios at: http://www.upnp.org/

“The UPnP AV specifications provide an interoperability infrastructure, which enables
device manufacturers to deliver innovative AV products that allow an end user to
purchase products from different manufacturers, bring them home, plug them into their
home network, and they just work together – it’s that simple,” said John Ritchie, cochair of the UPnP Forum’s AV Working Committee and staff engineer, Intel Digital Home Group.

“End users can expect an improved synergy among home entertainment products in
which the incremental benefit of each device increases as more and more UPnP AV
devices are added to the home network,” added Geert Knapen, the other co-chair of the
committee and Digital Architect, Royal Philips Electronics.

UPnP technology makes home networking simple and affordable so that the connected home
experience becomes a mainstream experience for users and a great opportunity for the industry.
UPnP device and service standards have been defined and published for Internet
gateways/routers, audio-video media devices, printers, scanners, climate control, lighting and
wireless LAN access points.

The UPnP architecture offers pervasive network connectivity between all types of devices including network-enabled consumer electronics equipment, intelligent appliances, portable wireless devices, PCs, etc.

The UPnP architecture leverages TCP/IP and other Web technologies
to enable seamless integration of these devices into existing network infrastructures. UPnP
technology can be implemented on nearly any operating system and works with essentially any
type of physical networking media that supports IP - wired or wireless - providing maximum user
and developer choices, which result in higher economic benefits for everyone.

This seems to be a forgotten feature as no game console is supporting this. They support UPnP but not widgets to control UPnP devices on the home network or blu-tooth. I assume that the Wifi cameras coming in 2011 will be UPnP.

The Printer feature built into the PS3 is I believe UPnP. Very few printers are network UPnP. We also have CEC commands to control devices connected to the HDMI port. That's also not supported beyond a simple command set to turn on and switch inputs.

 

[JPT]

Just as with the PSN Store, Sony has native applications on all their products. Portability between platforms is via "C" so while allot of IP (Intellectual Property) work is directly transferable much work for each platform is needed.

So this is a platform dependent solution or native if you like, not HTML5/flash etc?

Since Sony will want Qriocity on multiple other platforms I would suspect some other method will be used for them. HTML5? Flash? IS this being used for the PS3 also? I don't know as here in the US we have not seen Qriocity on the PS3.

They have it multiple platforms already, PS3, Internet Ready TVs, Blue Ray players.The US Video store is a Qriocity service.

Its already available on the following platforms/devices.

Users can play music any time on Sony devices like its Internet-enabled BRAVIA TV, Blu-ray Disc player, Blu-ray Disc Home Theater system, PlayStation 3 as well as VAIO and other PCs.

and

Sony says the service will also be made available on a range of Sony’s portable devices, as well as on Sony and third-party Android-based mobile devices and ‘other portable devices’.

Best guess would be the same as Vudu as it , of the IPTV streaming apps, is closest to the Qriocity videos I've seen.

Look at the US video store, its a Qriocity service.

Sony earlier launched “Video On Demand powered by Qriocity” a video streaming service, in the United States in April 2010 and expanded the service to France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK in November 2010.

 

[jeff_rigby]

So this is a platform dependent solution or native if you like, not HTML5/flash etc?

They have it multiple platforms already, PS3, Internet Ready TVs, Blue Ray players.The US Video store is a Qriocity service.

Its already available on the following platforms/devices.

and

Look at the US video store, its a Qriocity service.

The point of this? The points discussed or not agreed upon in this thread were about third party apps and what language would be used. I argued a cross platform language to open a larger target audience and Shifty argued for native language apps. In this case of what appears to be knit-picking you seem to be implying that Shifty was wrong in his guess that native language applications were to be used. To be fair, the context must be part of the discussion. What kind of APPS are we talking about? Depending on that, Shifty might be right.

Shifty's main argument against cross platform languages appears to be financial. Sony needs locked to Sony apps that can only be sold in the PSN Store. Javascript does not have a way to copyprotect and Android apps could be sold by the Google store. Applications that are cloud served and fees collected by/for the cloud service are generally free and do not fall into the area of disagreement.

For the professional Media front end I was referring to, it was for Media on the PS3 Hard Disk or DLNA streamed to the PS3 from a PC. That kind of App would need speed for the relational database. I believe it could be written in javascript, Flash or Android as in all cases the SQLite library of routines is native language.

So where does this leave us.....Shifty was right in that kind of application would probably not be allowed on the PS3 unless it went through Sony and they probably prefer native language as they would have more control. That's why the developer program included a process to publish through Sony.

 

[JPT]

As to third party applications, I've been looking for widget control of home automation and more. This is simple to write and provides extreme benefit/cost in time for developers. Cheap UPnP products will be hitting the US in 2011.


Check out the product scenarios at: http://www.upnp.org/


This seems to be a forgotten feature as no game console is supporting this. They support UPnP but not widgets to control UPnP devices on the home network or blu-tooth. I assume that the Wifi cameras coming in 2011 will be UPnP.

The Printer feature built into the PS3 is I believe UPnP. Very few printers are network UPnP. We also have CEC commands to control devices connected to the HDMI port. That's also not supported beyond a simple command set to turn on and switch inputs.

I am not sure about the cheap UPnP stuff for 2011, the scenario for UPnP has been like that since UPnP first started to get implementations, I remember reading the same stuff more than 5-6 years ago. And still the only UPnP stuff that I know have come on to the market are Internet Gateway Devices (IGD) for automatic port forwarding through NAT.

http://upnp.org/news/press_releases/

Press Releases

No Press Releases for 2010.

 

[JPT]

The point of this? The points discussed or not agreed upon in this thread were about third party apps and what language would be used. I argued a cross platform language to open a larger target audience and Shifty argued for native language apps. In this case of what appears to be knit-picking you seem to be implying that Shifty was wrong in his guess that native language applications were to be used. To be fair, the context must be part of the discussion. What kind of APPS are we talking about? Depending on that, Shifty might be right.

Shifty's main argument against cross platform languages appears to be financial. Sony needs locked to Sony apps that can only be sold in the PSN Store. Javascript does not have a way to copyprotect and Android apps could be sold by the Google store. Applications that are cloud served and fees collected by/for the cloud service are generally free and do not fall into the area of disagreement.

From my understanding of this thread you have been arguing that Sony needs HTML5, flash or something like this in their consoles or they will be obsolete and unable to compete. And they need to open up and support Android apps for the same reason.

While others have said that Sony has no incentive in letting people publish on their platform for free, because such a big deal of their business model is getting payment for letting people publish on their platform.
And if they where to let people run applications on their platform without a license, then it most likely the demarcation would be web based apps.

For the professional Media front end I was referring to, it was for Media on the PS3 Hard Disk or DLNA streamed to the PS3 from a PC. That kind of App would need speed for the relational database. I believe it could be written in javascript, Flash or Android as in all cases the SQLite library of routines is native language.

I don't understand this part, the PS3 has a DLNA renderer that is serviced from a DLNA Media Server like a PC or NAS etc.
Why does it need an extra app for this and a relational database for DLNA stuff?
Do you want the PS3 to be the Media Server also? Then my first question is why?
But fine, even if you do it, the list of files that are served should not need a relational database, its just list of filenames. The media server just multicasts its presence on the network and the clients picks it up and then asks for the file list from the server.
Then the streaming can start, but there is no need for any relational database in this phase at least.

 

[jeff_rigby]

From my understanding of this thread you have been arguing that Sony needs HTML5, flash or something like this in their consoles or they will be obsolete and unable to compete. And they need to open up and support Android apps for the same reason.

While others have said that Sony has no incentive in letting people publish on their platform for free, because such a big deal of their business model is getting payment for letting people publish on their platform.
And if they where to let people run applications on their platform without a license, then it most likely the demarcation would be web based apps.

Agreed, the demarcation for free apps should be the web. And yes I have said that with all other CE equipment having some form of App, Samsung = Flash (Air 2.5 for TV) and LG = HTML5 widget with Sony = Opera Widgets on TVs and Blu-ray players and Xbox = Silverlight 5 for games and apps, the PS3 needs some form of 3rd party app to compete. In my opinion it's going to be necessary to control external devices on the net and to make it easier for navigation. Necessary and the disagreements are only on the form these Apps will take.

Widgets are generally web based and are small easy to write applications that can be run off-line and stand alone outside a browser. Android has widgets, HTML5 webkit has widgets, Yahoo has widgets, Flash has widgets, Opera has widgets, Silverlight has widgets. Native language programs are not generally associated with widgets.

There is a case and use for both Widgets and Native language apps. They can and do overlap and this is where the disagreements are occurring. You can write a game using Android but it's better done using a native language program. You can write a native language program as a bookmark for a web page but that's better done by a widget.

Widgets are persistent web applications that can often replace cumbersome native applications and make using internet based services on a device more convenient

Widgets are usually run on user agents referred to as Widget Engines. Widget engines display widgets and in many ways mimic the behavior of Web browsers.

DAE Widgets are a specialization of standard DAE applications. DAE Widgets are inspired by (and mainly based on) W3C Widgets

In the same manner as Web page Widgets can be created for multiple platforms in a single step

 

[jeff_rigby]

Back to HTML5 webkit:

If we are getting a webkit browser for the PS3 it can easily be implemented on the PS3 by porting the Android OS and running Android like a Game from an option on the XMB. The Android OS port provides all the windowing OS features and Open source libraries to support webkit.

Harder would be to support webkit using the PS3 native language as Sony will have to port open source libraries to the PS3 to support webkit, would have to rewrite the PS3 kernel/XMB to support windows and would have to write a front end for the browser. Most of the libraries in the SNAP developer program would have to be compiled and included in the PS3 OS. The fact that those libraries are in the SNAP developer program would seem to me to support their porting webkit and supporting webkit this way.

In either case above, Widgets are possible either Android or HTML5 based. With HTML5, again, Sony will have to support Widgets and Javascript outside a browser with changes to the XMB/kernel. Will they do this? They should but this too is debatable.

Also true of either case above, WEBKIT is a port of compiled to native language routines that could be used for either. Both Android and Native language browser would use the same compiled to native language webkit routines. (There are minor differences in the Google Chrome version of webkit.) I.E. we could have both on the PS3 with little additional effort.

I'm not trying to advocate this but to explain where I am coming from I have to lay out my understanding of what is possible.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Bear with me, this is HTML5 webkit information.

http://armdevices.net/category/exclusive-videos/

ARM and IBM develop 32nm -> 28nm -> 22nm -> 20nm -> 14nm and smaller processors
Posted by Charbax – January 21, 2011

At the bottom of the same page linked above;

Opera Browser for Android Tablets
Posted by Charbax – January 18, 2011

Opera Software is optimizing a version of their Opera Browser for Android Tablets, thus providing some higher resolution user interface features.

The same Broadcom webkit based SOC used in LG TVs to support a webkit browser is being used in Sony TVs to support an Opera browser.

The benefit for hardware developers? Opera has adopted Open standards for HbbTV in their interface and widgets. They are working with EU countries to support new open TV/IPTV standards. This is apparently why Sony chose Opera for their TVs and BLu-ray players.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Opera: http://www.tvover.net/2011/01/26/Opera+Devices+SDK+29+Expands+Support+For+Broadcoms+Latest+STB+Chipsets.aspx

Opera Devices SDK 2.9 Expands Support for Broadcom’s Latest STB Chipsets
Opera Software announces that its newly-released Opera Devices SDK 2.9 will have out-of-the-box support on Broadcom's BCM7420 set-top-box SoC platform.

This latest browser has been integrated with Broadcom’s flexible set-top box API (application programming interface), providing a common Opera porting environment across a broad range of cable, satellite and IP set-top-box SoCs. These devices include current generation products such as the BCM7400, BCM7405, and BCM7335 and next-generation 40nm devices such as the BCM7231 and BCM7425.

Broadcom BCM7425

http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/Satellite-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7425

A broad array of time-to-market web-based connected home STB software applications environments including Adobe Flash® Platform for TV, Webkit HMTL 5.0, Java, Nokia's Qt Framework including QtWebkit, DLNA 1.5, and DirectFB application libraries

http://dev.opera.com/sdk/

Opera Widgets SDK

Opera Widgets are self-contained Web applications built using open Web standards such as HTML, CSS and JavaScript. Widgets are cross-platform and cross-device, meaning you can deploy them anywhere, from desktop to mobile to TV, and more besides. Opera Widgets will be aligned to the W3C Widgets 1.0 specification when it is finalized, meaning you won’t get locked into a vendor-specific proprietary technology or delivery model. The Opera Widgets SDK is free of charge, and supplies you with the tools, documentation, and JavaScript libraries you need to create your own widgets as easily as possible.

Free Opera Widgets ; http://widgets.opera.com/new/

This could make it into the PS3

 

[JPT]

. Just as above with Android I believe an Opera browser version is using webkit. I'd guess Opera has put a front end on webkit so the look and feel is Opera but will work on Webkit based platforms. In the case of Android they ported the front end to use Android just as the front end for the Android webkit browser uses a Chrome front end.

Do you do any research before writing this stuff, try spending 2 minutes with Google.

What makes you think Opera has abandoned they own layout engine for webkit when they already are on a lot of platforms.
Opera has been on broadcom stuff for a long time, most STB manufacturers lets you choose the browser you want.

Mozilla Fennec using webkit? Try Google again

 

[jeff_rigby]

Needs to be deleted

 

[Zaphod]

The Broadcom SOC is based on Webkit. How much of a generic Opera browser makes it into a platform with the Broadcom chipset is not documented but the SOC is based on Webkit.

Seriously, that's totally backwards. There's no such thing. Broadcom just listed various application frameworks that has support for their SoC. Now, with Opera's announcement, we might just stuff Opera into the very same list.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Seriously, that's totally backwards. There's no such thing. Broadcom just listed various application frameworks that has support for their SoC. Now, with Opera's announcement, we might just stuff Opera into the very same list.

Earlier SOC had a javascript engine as part of the Chip. This one is totally empty and progammable?

This is where I don't have enough knowledge to be sure of what they are saying when they say API for Webkit 5 support. Is it that there is support in Webkit for a port of webkit to the Broadcom chip? Same is now true of Opera with SDK 2.9. So windows, fonts, graphics primitives, control interfaces, threading , OS in the chip. Opera has a jit javascript engine that will work with the 2 Mips processors in the chip? Same for Webkit?

 

[JPT]

I mentioned it needs to be confirmed and the explanation is somewhere between my statement and what you imply above.

No you need to find anything that supports your ideas, both Mozilla and Opera have their own layout engine, Gecko for Mozilla and Presto for Opera.
There is nothing that substantiates that they have abandoned their own stuff for webkit, just your wild guesses.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Needs to be deleted