HTML5 on consoles

Meh. If you're targeting everyone you can't rely on plugins, a large percentage of people simple can't install them due to security issues, or won't due to security concerns. Flash has a 98% install base already, which makes it unique among plugins.

I really can't see H264 (+plugin) gaining any kind of momentum now inside of the browser, it's just DOA.

Flash doesn't run on iOS you know. Many existing Blu-ray players and TV don't support it although future ones may.

If they want, the device manufacturers can pre-install a H.264 plugin. They can also distribute another Chrome with H.264 video tag. ^_^
If people can't install plugin on their Android phones, then the App Store model is broken.

The question is who's going to pay for it. I assume big manufacturers already exceeded the unit caps, so they only pay one lump sum.

They'll both do fine on the net.


My android 2.2 based TMobile/HTC G2 plays all my h264 encoded videos perfectly well...

Indeed. H.264 will still be around on Android phones.
 
Flash doesn't run on iOS you know. Many existing Blu-ray players and TV don't support it although future ones may.

If they want, the device manufacturers can pre-install a H.264 plugin. They can also distribute another Chrome with H.264 video tag. ^_^
If people can't install plugin on their Android phones, then the App Store model is broken.

The question is who's going to pay for it. I assume big manufacturers already exceeded the unit caps, so they only pay one lump sum.

They'll both do fine on the net.




Indeed. H.264 will still be around on Android phones.

Slightly off topic but does affect the game console, Arm and Nvidia with the Tegra 2 are equipping a new generation of smart phones with the power to play 3D console games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lspay6X1YdQ&feature=related

Sony is trying to keep the Tegra 2 equipped Android 2.3 LG super phone out of the US market claiming patent infringement. The LG phone has a HDMI 1080P output that can connect to the home TV and can play movies at that resolution into the TV as well as play 3D game titles that use the unreal 3 engine playing on a network with the PS3 and PCs playing the same title. While the phone's video is not PS3 or PC quality it's said to have 3-4 times the graphics ability of the iPhone.

Combining the above with the previously mentioned Rockchip equipped Android 2.3 tablets and TVs with HTML5 Webkit and Flash hardware support, VP8, H.264 and HDMI 1080P output we have Game consoles that are falling behind in supporting what are going to be considered minimum CE specs.

We are also seeing that Android can support games and Browsers even with hardware that is limited in power due to it's use as a portable (battery life).

In the linked video the Nvidia Rep was talking about personal computers now portable and carrying them in your pocket. Mentioned was photo, document and video viewing as well as web access. The only thing missing is a comfortable keyboard and desktop computers are obsolete.

In searching for information on the Sony Snap Developer program, one person had already downloaded the SDKs (before it was pulled) and did a compare between the next step repositories and the Sony modified versions and he discovered that gesture recognition had been added by Sony.

http://blog.deliciousrobots.com/2010/11/27/sonys-changes-to-gnustep-gui-library-adding-touch/

The Sony SNAP program could still be used with the PS3 or PSP2, other platforms like tablets and Cell phones, it's too late to compete with Android or the iOS platforms. That SNAP was put on hold MUST affect the entire Sony line including the PS3. Using only the information we have which may not be complete and could skew speculation I would guess the following: Edit: Snap put on Hold because the Open Source Eclipse developer toolkit project was closed down

1) Most likely Sony is going to use Android on all Sony platforms including the PS3. Edit; now not likely

2) Or the core OS that the SNAP program uses is going to change. Still Linux 2.6 but cell based on all platforms. Edit: it's not a reason for the developer program to be put on hold but might still be possible.

This would still allow for Android support on some platforms and Native Sony on others. Choice two ties in with the new Cell use patent published at about the same time the SNAP program was pulled. The delay in the PSP2 release (end of 2011) and the quotes "as powerful as a PS3" as well as the purchase of the Cell production plant from Toshiba would tend to support this.

For Sony to compete with what's coming in 2011 from China and Korea as well as implement their "Digital Ecosystem" and compete with Apple they must do something far reaching and unique. Using the Cell for distributed processing as well as it's unique ability to easily encrypt/unencrypt allowing playing of media across a wired or wireless network fills a need not in the CES 2011 products. All others have to be wired via a HDMI cable to TVs and playing media or secure data from a home server will require real time decryption, the Sony cell equipped products could play HDMI media (HDCP) wireless to Sony cell equipped TVs.
 
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Without inflection and even with emotacons I still don't know why or if you disagree?

My interpretation is that he disagrees with you very much, mainly because Android is not suitable as is to be a game console OS.
Heck what ever Android gives you its mostly to be able to make applications quickly, its not geared towards squeezing performance out of a piece of hardware.
Unless you expect them to run 2 OS on the PS3, ie Android for some stuff and then GameOS for games etc.

And your usage of Sony buying back the cell manufacturing plant to produce more or nextgen cell is dubious at best, since it has been stated that the reason they did it is because they want it for their digital camera component production.

My question in regards this HTML5 on console thread, what is it you are trying to achieve?
I see you fling out a theory or another backed up by conjecture based on wishful thinking around press releases and what not. Then you claim its okay, because its the science way of doing it, create a theory and get peer review, but when people with in-depth knowledge refute your claims, you just go of on another tangent or dispute facts with another PR statement and what not. What is your goal, prove that HTML5 will be on consoles, that its already there or that if it does not get it, the consoles are doomed?

Actually you sound like an "analyst" trying to predict the future with no solid foundation to stand on and just take pot shots at anything that moves, hoping to reach the accuracy of a broken clock.
 
Because I cannot see a single business benefit to sony from this but a whole lot of business troubles.

Do you have any guesses as why Sony put the SNAP developer program on Hold?

Related to the breaking of PS3 DRM/security?

It has to be something that happened in November 2010. A decision by upper management or event (external or Internal) triggered it being put on hold and software removed just a week or so after being posted.
 
JPT said:
My question in regards this HTML5 on console thread, what is it you are trying to achieve?

Great question !

I suspect the JavaScriptCore work on PS3 probably benefits the "Skinny" apps (e.g., Hulu Plus, VUDU, NetFlix, NHL app). It helps to standardize these apps' look and feel, and speed up development.

If Sony makes a HTML5 browser available on PS3. I'm willing to pay for it.
 
My interpretation is that he disagrees with you very much, mainly because Android is not suitable as is to be a game console OS.
Heck what ever Android gives you its mostly to be able to make applications quickly, its not geared towards squeezing performance out of a piece of hardware.
Unless you expect them to run 2 OS on the PS3, ie Android for some stuff and then GameOS for games etc. Yes....See message #405

And your usage of Sony buying back the cell manufacturing plant to produce more or nextgen cell is dubious at best, since it has been stated that the reason they did it is because they want it for their digital camera component production. Only one of three supporting elements.

My question in regards this HTML5 on console thread, what is it you are trying to achieve?
I see you fling out a theory or another backed up by conjecture based on wishful thinking around press releases and what not. Then you claim its okay, because its the science way of doing it, create a theory and get peer review, but when people with in-depth knowledge refute your claims, you just go of on another tangent or dispute facts with another PR statement and what not. What is your goal, prove that HTML5 will be on consoles, that its already there or that if it does not get it, the consoles are doomed?

Actually you sound like an "analyst" trying to predict the future with no solid foundation to stand on and just take pot shots at anything that moves, hoping to reach the accuracy of a broken clock.

My first statements on this board have been proven to be 100% accurate. Only when I am deflected by those who have more in-depth knowledge do I stray from my original statement into subjects that I have not yet done enough research.

News articles are often inaccurate and misunderstandings can occur between the writer and reader of these threads.

This forum message #17


Originally Posted by AzBat
Looks like the Xbox 360 will be getting HTML5 support with their upcoming dashboard update. Evidently that's how ESPN is bringing it's streaming content to the box.

What about the PS3? It seems the new Netflix app on the PS3 might require HTML5 too. So Microsoft definitely won't be the only one. The PS3 could even get there first if the Netflix app comes out in October like it's been rumored.

Tommy McClain

My statement:

It appears you are correct; I've speculated on this since I heard that Netflix was going to Amazon servers and HTML5.

These Applications are using routines in PS3 firmware 3.5 which results in smaller sizes with their updated after PS3 firmware 3.5 release versions..

Hulu app decreased in size 13 megs after the PS3 firmware 3.5 release.
MLB app decreased in size from 16 meg to 7.6 meg
The Netflix application was not released to Canada until after 3.5.

The HULU application states that it is available on other platforms (using the same license) that support ONLY HTML5. (iOS)
Netflix director of Network development stated that NETFLIX was going to HTML5 and would have a dynamically updatable user interface

With an understanding of what HTML5 makes possible, the MLB application size of 7.6 megs, the functionality shown in the MLB application, the reduction in size of the applications after 3.5 and the statements in the articles I cite leads to the conclusion that a partially active webkit (probably WEBGL) was in PS3 firmware update 3.5 and is now in the PS3.

Tools in HTML5 can be called by other languages (native Apps), this includes javascript included in modern WEBKITs. Third party WEB providers can write applications using HTML5 tools and they will be usable on all platforms that support HTML5 with little change; possibly with just a Sony provided wrapper.

Example:

Sony provided wrapper for applications on XMB written in C+
HTML5 code/calls provided by HULU or Netflix. This code can be used unchanged by ALL platforms; probably uses Javascript See below:
Custom PS3 routines to support HTML5 pre 3.5. This disappears as routines are supported by PS3 firmware
End wrapper

In addition, incorporated in HTML5 and new WEBKITs is the ability to download javascript code and save to a protected file on the hardware platform (in this case the PS3 Hard Disk). This allows dynamic updating and on-the-fly User Interface changes. The MLB application at 7.6 megs must use this feature. Netflix's "dynamically updateable" user interface must use this feature also.

There was probably a push to get the tools in both consoles (Xbox - PS3) to support WEB applications (select portions of HTML5 and Javascript). Sony (PS3) will probably go on to finish a WEBGL browser for WEB games but we don't know about Xbox.

Anyone disagree? I really want any flaws in my reasoning exposed.

And in Nov 2010 it was confirmed a HTML5 javascript engine was ported to the PS3 as part of an on-going port of webkit to the PS3. The engine is being used to support Netflix and other Apps just as I stated.

what is it you are trying to achieve?

Achieve....solve a puzzle, predict the future and learn. While I find Shifty somewhat negative, he is very knowledgeable and always explains his opinions. This requires me to read and do research if his opinions differ from my world view, I appreciate his comments. Others just say "yeah right", no one can learn from that. The first half of your last post was a perfect example of what I like to see in posts the second half somewhat personal and without value.
 
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And your usage of Sony buying back the cell manufacturing plant to produce more or nextgen cell is dubious at best, since it has been stated that the reason they did it is because they want it for their digital camera component production.

You expect news articles to be accurate and Sony to tell us their plans. The cost of the plant can't be justified for just digital camera components. Telling the world they bought it to produce multiple custom Cell designs for Sony CE products would tip their hand.

This is just a guess and debatable. I'm only saying that using News reports alone can be misleading. I'd only grant a SLIGHTLY greater possibility that it may be more accurate than my speculation.

The current Fab production line in the plant in question can not produce state of the art low power consumption high speed chips. It can produce cameras components and slower speed Cell CPUs designed for other than Game platforms which need high efficiency fast CPUs. For instance TVs, tablets, cell phones, Network servers can run at 1. something Ghz. At those speeds older 60nm Fabs would be efficient. I believe IBM is making Cell chips for Sony that have a smaller die size and are more efficient.

What are the benefits of the Cell and why did Sony choose to use it in the PS3. It's very good for Media codecs and encryption. It's scalable in both design and use. Need more power for a video camera than you need for a still camera, tack a couple of more SPUs on to the design. Peak performance requires 4 but idling needs one, you can idle the SPUs not being used.

There is a thread in this forum about the speculated uses for the Cell. It starts with comments from the PS3's Father. Built into the overdesigned to last 10 years PS3 is Gigabit networking which as we have seen has not been implemented or needed by any other Game console. Why does the PS3 have it?

Having the exact same core CPU in all Sony products allows Sony to share a basic OS and tools between all products. The Cell can realtime encrypt and decrypt allowing for DRM in the streams between Sony products. It can also allow for distributed processing where unused Cell SPUs and memory can be used by other cell devices. And one of the biggest features; Current CE equipment is a one off design with every year new designs requiring a new custom chip design. With the Cell as a general purpose building block, a redesign to add more features to a camera would not be needed as often, just update the firmware.

We are moving to a cloud computing model. Tablets, Cellphones and notebooks will have the power to do real world computing but will not have the memory or hard drive space needed for some functions. Servers will be needed to meet that need. Home servers and Internet Servers serving the same need. In the home a Sony Cell equipped server can serve up DRM encrypted media as well as share SPU and memory with Sony cell equipped products.

And Android can be thought of as a super UI not an operating system on most Sony products. The basic building blocks in the Android OS are native language PD open source with drivers in native language with threading provided in a Posix Linux kernel 2.6 format. See message #405, it's nearly the same as the SNAP model. Sony model and Google model might be converging with Android 3.0 and later....probable. Just use the same PD libraries. Did Google talk to Sony, is this a possible?

Do games require a super UI...NO so Android will not be running for games. Does the PS3 now have a modern desktop UI....NO, could it benefit from one, does it need one for webkit....yes. Will Sony provide an open source native language Sony written desktop UI for the PS3 or use Android. Until the pulling of the SNAP developer code and the "On HOLD" notice, yes Sony was going to write their own using open source code. Now there is a possibility that they are going to use Android. Edit: Snap developer program was put on hold because the eclipse developer toolkit project was closed.

Or as I said, Sony may be rewriting the basic kernel to use a CELL and may modify and optimize the Linux 2.6 kernel for the cell.

That the SNAP program which would support ALL Sony future products and the PS3 was put on hold for ALL products has major implications. I.E. they could have put a disclaimer in that there would be a fork for other products besides the PS3 and still use the SNAP code and site for the PS3. Edit: see above

The Nvidia Tegra 2 GPU was at one time speculated to be part of the PSP2. It is giving cell phones the graphics power to do 3D games and is shipping in cell phones NOW. That the PSP2 will be released at the end of 2011 means some other hardware component is needed for the PSP2 and I'd guess a next generation CELL processor with a die size that makes it efficient enough for a portable.

Edit: Toshiba is using the cell in their higher end 3-D TVs both shutter glass and glassless but Sony which has LG and others making and designing many of their blu-ray and TV products is probably not using the cell.

Toshiba in the coming glassless 3-D TV is using a 40nm cell which can not be made in the cell production fab in Japan just recently purchased by Sony from Toshiba. The fab plant in Japan can make 60nm cell and those can be used efficiently at slower clock speeds in other CE equipment. The same plant can also make CMOS image sensors for cameras as mentioned in the news articles and that may be the primary use for that plant. PSP2 if using a cell would require a more efficient chip with a smaller die size and that would have to be subcontracted to IBM or a IBM partner.
 
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And that's my friendly, optimistic forum persona! :mrgreen:

Just makes me work harder....grrrr and learn more :smile:

Again slightly off topic but web related;

Just visited Sams club and 12 mega pixel cameras (Still and HD video) have dropped in price to $69.00 (clearing inventory for something new like WIFI enabled cameras?). There are now touchscreen wireless picture frames for $99 that have their own email address and sync with facebook, a Kodak server, PC and others.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kodak-Pulse/407870365507?v=info

I'm guessing this year will see a flood of similar products with WIFI connections. Cheap notebooks, tablets and Cellphones with only cellphones with powerful GPUs selling for a premium. Previous post mentioned China Rockchip enabled Android 2.3 TVs, tablets and notebooks for sale after March 2011 HTML5 WEBKIT enabled and wireless. Cheap wireless "N" routers $39.00.

These were the products I'd expect in a Sony Digital ecosystem but NO SONY. Way behind where I feel they need to be and they put the SNAP developer program on hold????? It has to signal something significant.

Apps in tablets, cellphones, notebooks, desktops and PS3 would automatically control the camera to download pictures via wifi from the cameras. From there they can be served to picture frames or pushed to other PS3s or other platforms via Jive or some other Sony cloud server. Or direct from Camera to Cloud server then to PS3 or picture frame.

I don't understand why PSN Plus isn't already being used to push pictures between Sony products. Use the same PSN PLUS ability that pushes upgrades to push pictures into folders
 
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Reason for the Sony SNAP developer program put on hold:

https://snap.sonydeveloper.com/common/pages/document/view/?id=8

The Snap program used an objective C toolkit called Eclipse which closed down 11/19/2010

http://code.google.com/p/objectiveclipse/

There is no longer any support for that toolkit.

With this information, speculation for other reasons are obviously in error. So native language apps not Android are still probably planned. A different toolkit and development platform will need to be developed. More delays.....

I had to find this myself as 4 news articles about Snap closing down were speculating about reasons for the closure just as I was. They did not do their homework and I was too quick to post and did not check for myself.
 
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Reason for the Sony SNAP developer program put on hold:

https://snap.sonydeveloper.com/common/pages/document/view/?id=8

The Snap program used an objective C toolkit called Eclipse which closed down 11/19/2010

http://code.google.com/p/objectiveclipse/

There is no longer any support for that toolkit.

With this information, speculation for other reasons are obviously in error. So native language apps not Android are still probably planned. A different toolkit and development platform will need to be developed.

Eclipse is simply an integrated development environment, mostly used for Java, C++ projects, but I guess there was an effort to make an extension that supported Objective C... there are plenty of great ObjC development environments. The one most people use is probably Xcode for OSX and iOS development. I would think this is not a major reason for an application framework to disappear... because of a lack of suitable IDE.

Any programmer can just simply use vi or emacs with command line build tools like make or ant to automate your build process. Debugging might be trickier, but I'm sure there are solutions out there to make it nearly as easy as working in an integrated environment.

More likely, the objectiveeclipse project died as the result of lack of interest in developing with ObjectiveC outside of the OSX and iOS worlds.

I'm not familiar with snap, nor why it would be dead -- if it is, but the lack of an IDE is not likely to be the reason. Heck, I think initial XBox360 development was done on Macs due to the availability of PowerPC compatible cross compilers before the final SDKs were released.
 
Eclipse is simply an integrated development environment, mostly used for Java, C++ projects, but I guess there was an effort to make an extension that supported Objective C... there are plenty of great ObjC development environments. The one most people use is probably Xcode for OSX and iOS development. I would think this is not a major reason for an application framework to disappear... because of a lack of suitable IDE.

Any programmer can just simply use vi or emacs with command line build tools like make or ant to automate your build process. Debugging might be trickier, but I'm sure there are solutions out there to make it nearly as easy as working in an integrated environment.

More likely, the objectiveeclipse project died as the result of lack of interest in developing with ObjectiveC outside of the OSX and iOS worlds.

I'm not familiar with snap, nor why it would be dead -- if it is, but the lack of an IDE is not likely to be the reason. Heck, I think initial XBox360 development was done on Macs due to the availability of PowerPC compatible cross compilers before the final SDKs were released.

Not dead, put on hold. Your reasons for objective eclipse shutting down was part of the reason given, not enough interest. I suspect HOLD means hold....until another easy to use toolkit is acquired/developed.

As mentioned by JPT "Heck what ever Android gives you its mostly to be able to make applications quickly, its not geared towards squeezing performance out of a piece of hardware." As such it's still in the running for applications that don't require performance or impose memory issues I.E. non-game.

Edit: objective C was chosen because it forces the developer to manage resources, he has to call and release the resources he uses. This feature is apparently why Apple chose it for their iOS resource limited platforms.
 
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Not dead, put on hold. Your reasons for objective eclipse shutting down was part of the reason given, not enough interest.
The IDE isn't anything important. Sony's C code can be used in any suitable IDE verbatim. It's like Sony's C code source is "Rich Text Format" documents that were being written in OpenOffice. OpenOffice then gets closed down. No worries, those same Rich Text Format documents can be loaded and edited in any other RTF compatible text editor.

If eclipse is just an IDE, Sony's code could be ported to any other IDE. Maybe they'd lose their project structures and would have to piece everything together, but the underlying work of the SNAP codebase won't be affected and can be continued another IDE.

I'd say this one was just a coincidence, and the reason for SNAP discontinuation is due to a reevaluating of Sony's position and other alternative platforms. Maybe Sony were approached with a deal that meant reinventing the wheel was no longer such a good idea and they can adopt another standard - as you say, something like Android perhaps.
 
The IDE isn't anything important. Sony's C code can be used in any suitable IDE verbatim. It's like Sony's C code source is "Rich Text Format" documents that were being written in OpenOffice. OpenOffice then gets closed down. No worries, those same Rich Text Format documents can be loaded and edited in any other RTF compatible text editor.

If eclipse is just an IDE, Sony's code could be ported to any other IDE. Maybe they'd lose their project structures and would have to piece everything together, but the underlying work of the SNAP codebase won't be affected and can be continued another IDE.

I'd say this one was just a coincidence, and the reason for SNAP discontinuation is due to a reevaluating of Sony's position and other alternative platforms. Maybe Sony were approached with a deal that meant reinventing the wheel was no longer such a good idea and they can adopt another standard - as you say, something like Android perhaps.

Quite allot of room for speculation with little meat. I'm surprised you've shifted to thinking Android Apps might even be possible. You were proven correct in that Sony was behind developing native language third party applications rather than cross platform.

I see Android using open source libraries and evolving for tablets toward similar features using similar libraries as Sony is doing. Could they eventually use the same Open source libraries? Edit: There is now more evidence this might be happening with Android 3.0. Certainly all the major browsers are using internally some of the same libraries Sony is using for the PS3 (Gstreamer and Cairo).
 
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Quite allot of room for speculation with little meat. I'm surprised you've shifted to thinking Android Apps might even be possible.
Not necessarily on PS3. I just think a common software platform would benefit a Sony ecosystem across console, handheld, CE devices and mobiles. I don't think a truly open platform will be considered unless Sony see themselves profiting from hardware sales, willing to make less on software license fees in favour of popularity of Sony TVs and phones once again. It must be disappointing for the company synonymous with bestest TVs and consoles to have their standing so diminished. But on PS3 I don't think the financial situation is there to accomodate Android, and sticking with native apps with right interface protocols for connecting to content servers should be enough to see this generation out.

Although maybe custom FW PS3's will get an Android port anyhoo :devilish:
 
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