How well can Gamecube do bumpmapping?

[cybamerc]

DeathKnight:

> Nearly every service is bumpmapped.

What the hell is "service"?

> The bumpmapping is clearly visible.

Anyone can claim that. I've stated my reason for believing that it's just a gloss map. Can you do the same?

Xbox screens:

PC screen:

Where are the shadows? It's just highlights of varying intensity. The rest of the detail comes from the base texture.

Also, why would they use bump mapping just on the ice stage but use a gloss map on other courses in the game that could also benifit from bump mapping?

> The keyword is nearly.

Even that is stretching it.

> There are surfaces in Halo that are not bumpmapped, but then again
> they didn't need the extra detail.

Haha... please. The reason why everything isn't bump mapped is clearly performance. The framerate is bad enough as it is.

Every surface, regardless of detail, would benifit from the superior lighting.

Good job finding a few pictures that work to your advantage. I could find several more that work to mine. BTW, where's the bump mapping in pic 2? And pic 5 clearly illustrates the difference in quality I'm talking about. It looks awful.



yipchunyu:

> will bm run on gc place great burden to it?

It burns fillrate like everything else. If framerate is important stuff like bump mapping may have to go.



Plasmatics:

There is no bump mapping in pic 1 and 3. Not having played the game it's harder to tell with pic 2 and 4 but I'm actually leaning towards it being good texturing. If you look at pic 4 you can see the highlights on the walls change place. On the left side the highlight is placed on the bottom of the stones and on the right side it is placed on top. That would be the natural result if the texture is just repeated all the way round.

The fact that there's doubt speaks volumes of Rare talent for texture creation.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Gamecube can do Bumpmapping very well, and has a lot of texture tricks like such up its sleeve, which is probally its only real up on its competition, mulitplatform games just dont use it, and Nintendo really doesnt make a point to yet, SFA did, RL did, but with metroid, instead of bumpmapping a surface,they just modeled the cracks in themselves.

 

[Blade]

Metroid Prime gives off a slight illusion of bump-mapping when you're rolling around with the Morph Ball.

It's not there, though. Maybe for that reason? (not worth the performance decrease since it looks good enough)

 

[Cyborg]

Metroid Prime gives off a slight illusion of bump-mapping when you're rolling around with the Morph Ball.

It's not there, though. Maybe for that reason?

Retro used the good ol polygons for bumps and cracks on the terrain's surface. Probably a question of physic, since the ball is so damn reactive to the terrain, better collision detection. Afterall, all bump mapping do is mimicking what polygons would look like. So if retro had enough TnL power left for having the terrain look rough (chozo ruins = best example of this) then they probably decided not to risk hindering the framerates with bump mapping.

 

[Blade]

Cyborg: Perhaps.

I'm talking about textures, though. The textures were rather normal (and relatively low-res, even) but looked so good.

It almost looks like there's bump-mapping on flat surfaces.

 

[Cyborg]

Just the texture artists i guess, there's no "magic" involved im pretty sure

 

[DeathKnight]

What the hell is "service"?

Someone needs to brush up on their reading skills and learn how to figure out things from context. It's a spelling error.. supposed to be surface.

Anyone can claim that. I've stated my reason for believing that it's just a gloss map. Can you do the same?

And your reason for believing it's just a gloss map stems from you never touching Rallisport in your life.

Gloss maps don't give the illusion of bumpy surfaces. The icey road is comprised of a base texture, then a bumpmap to introduce the illusion of higher surfaces, and then specular highlights are tossed on top. It really stands out in motion.

Even that is stretching it.

No, it isn't.

Haha... please. The reason why everything isn't bump mapped is clearly performance.

If that's the case then I'm surprised they got the performance they did in such a short time considering nearly every surface is bumpmapped. Kind of helps when you got the speed and horsepower of the vertex shaders behind it. You might want to look into Halo 2 where just about every surface is normal-mapped.

Good job finding a few pictures that work to your advantage.

Yeah, they do work to a degree.

BTW, where's the bump mapping in pic 2?

Everywhere. Even you should know that sometimes it may be difficult to convey bumpmapping through pictures if it's subtle. This leads me to believe that you've never touched Halo in your life either. I agree with what zurich had said. You have to see it in motion to appreciate it. Turn on the flashlight and it'll really jump out at you.

So, instead of refusing to believe something based on your own agenda and lack of experience, you should take our word for it. Either can it or go play Halo and see for yourself.

 

[cybamerc]

DeathKnight:

> Someone needs to brush up on their reading skills

I read just fine, thank you. You repeated the word several times and I don't have the ability to read minds.

> And your reason for believing it's just a gloss map stems from you
> never touching Rallisport in your life.

Why post more pictures then. Pictures that only help illustrate my point.

> Gloss maps don't give the illusion of bumpy surfaces.

Sure they do.

http://developer.nvidia.com/docs/IO/2653/ATT/practical_per_pixel_effects.pdf

http://www.ati.com/developer/sdk/rage128sdk/OpenGL/Samples/Rage128Specular.html

> If that's the case then I'm surprised they got the performance they did
> in such a short time

4.5 years is a short time?

> You might want to look into Halo 2 where just about every surface is
> normal-mapped.

Halo 2 isn't the topic.

> Everywhere.

Please.

> Even you should know that sometimes it may be difficult to convey
> bumpmapping through pictures if it's subtle.

Since when did subtle become a synonym for non-existant?

> you should take our word for it.

Your word has no value. Bias aside you don't seem to have much knowledge about the subject at hand.

 

[zurich]

Why post more pictures then. Pictures that only help illustrate my point.

If you haven't played Rallisport or Halo, then you don't have a point. And that ATI link on gloss maps doesn't look anything like the tracks in RSC.

 

[DeathKnight]

cybamerc, you really need to stop digging yourself into a deeper hole. Now it's becoming utterly pathetic.

 

[Kolgar]

Cybamerc:

The only place I remember for sure where SMB uses bump mapping is on the "Target" multiplayer game. The target surfaces look almost like the raised pattern of a basketball's surface.

Kolgar

 

[CaptainHowdy]

weird you would be talking about that, I was just Ice Racing in Rallisport..
I am going to go with merc, they do not use Bumpmapping, it doesnt look like it has depth to me ingame, the entire road has a form of reflective surfacing though, it looks fantastic.

 

[DeathKnight]

This picture shows it off the best. It's bumpmapped. You're also playing the PC version Captain and the effect may come out looking different for you.

 

[Kolgar]

I remember reading a preview of Rallisport that specifically mentioned the great bump-mapped road surfaces. *shrug* Heck, it looks like bump mapping to me.

Kolgar

 

[CaptainHowdy]

actually, my girlfriend gave my my present early, I am playing the Xbox version, the PC version though it looks better, runs like crap on my system, and everyone tells me its just me..(and though it says it supports force feedback, it doesnt seem to on my pad)..

it could be bumpmapped, it just doesnt look like it to me ingame, its barely noticable though, I mainly just see it where the sun hits the road, and its a bit of shine, otherwise, its not even visable.

 

[DeathKnight]

Hmm. I haven't played the game in quite a while so I'm just recalling what I saw when I played the game and from the screens.

So you got an Xbox now eh? My sister's getting a Cube for Xmas so maybe I'll play some games on there.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

it is really hard for me to tell honestly, it goes by so fast, but it looks good, and thats all that matters, I think the roads in RS are the best, even the asphault has just the right amount of shine.

 

[Cyborg]

I would go with specular map and a gloss map for the rallisport shot, and yes i've played it, one of the best rally game out there.

If we want to be 100% sure, lets bring it to the 3d hardware & technology forum, these guys will take a few seconds to answer

 

[Ozymandis]

Heh. Rallisport Challenge is quite obviously bumpmapped.

Would nVidia trumpet gloss maps as "pixel shading"? I wouldn't think so.

 

[Cyborg]

Would nVidia trumpet gloss maps as "pixel shading"? I wouldn't think so

Uh why not? pixel shading is just a buzz word for the combiner anyway, bump maps and gloss maps go through the same paths, just different algorythms. Bump mapping isnt any more important than gloss maps and vice versa.