How well can Gamecube do bumpmapping?

[Guest]

I know the hw supports it but how far can it go?
Many GC games do not have bumpmapping.
Another thing to note, Shrek GC had its bumpmapping removed.

 

[Magnum PI]

look at star wars rogue leader.

i read there is some bumpmap in this game.

 

[Kolgar]

Yes, Rogue Leader has some very nice bump-mapping and multi-layered texturing.

Super Monkey Ball uses bump mapping in a subtle way, and Star Fox Adventures puts it to good use as well.

I wonder why Shrek GC had it removed? Then again, I wonder why GC needs the game at all!

Kolgar

 

[clem64]

The two GC games I've seen with the most extensive use of bumpmapping are Rogue Leader and Starfox adventure. I'd say SFA uses it even more. It's all over the place in this game. Every surface that could benefit from bump mapping has it.

About Shrek, all the reviews for the GC version say it's a terrible game. The developer really didn't take the time to port it properly so the graphics part of the game probably suffered too. It's just a sloppy port.

 

[Blade]

Bump-mapping was removed from Wreckless for GCN as well.

I think it's more of the developers and less the hardware that's keeping high-quality Xbox-to-GCN ports away..

BTW, there appears to be a lil' bit of bump-mapping in Luigi's Mansion (the basement bricks) but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Cyborg]

Like others said, its more of a developer's decision rather than hardware. And personally, im not too found of the whole gimmick of bump mapping EVERYTHING just for the heck of it, it makes everything looks like plastic. Its a nice effect if used in a subtle way. It also seems to be a western vs eastern thing also, everyone knows that xbox has more western support than eastern and vice versa for gamecube. Notice how pretty much all heavily bump mapped games on xbox are all from either european or north american devs, while there's barely any BM in the xbox japanese titles.

dont ask me why.....maybe cause japaneses arent used to the technology as much as the western devs ? (pc experience most likely) or its just an art decision.

There's BM in PN03, FF:CC, probably RE4 aswell but i havent really checked closely.

And you can bet factor5's next project will have it (duh)

 

[sergio_r]

Like others said, its more of a developer's decision rather than hardware. And personally, im not too found of the whole gimmick of bump mapping EVERYTHING just for the heck of it, it makes everything looks like plastic.

yeah, does seem more a western thing. IMHO, bump mapping, when used well, is great.

 

[mkillio]

Time Splitters 2 has it on most of the bricks, i.e. in the siberia level and chicago levels.

 

[cybamerc]

Kolgar:

> Super Monkey Ball uses bump mapping in a subtle way

I have SMB and I don't recall a single instance of bump mapping in the game. Could you tell me where you believe it is used?


clem64:

> I'd say SFA uses it even more. It's all over the place in this game.

I haven't played SFA but aside from the water in the game I haven't seen more than a few surfaces that could be bump mapped. I think a lot of you are confusing great texturing with bump mapping.

> The developer really didn't take the time to port it properly so the
> graphics part of the game probably suffered too.

The way you've worded that sentence you imply the gameplay took a hit. The Xbox original is supposed to be shit as well


Cyborg:

> (pc experience most likely)

I don't see that as a valid reason. Aside from a few PC titles with EMBM hacks and the like there aren't many PC titles with bump mapping. It's often said that PC developers are better at exploiting the hardware because they are more up-to-date with the latest graphical effects due to frequent releases of new PC gfx chips but that is nonsense. Whenever a new console it is accompanied by titles that absolutely bitch-slap anything released on PC. On Cube it was RL and to a lesser extent LM.

> There's BM in PN03, FF:CC, probably RE4 aswell but i havent really
> checked closely.

There's bump mapping in FF:CC but I haven't seen any in the other titles you mention. That said it's really a quite common feature on the Cube... it's just mostly used for water.

 

[mr]

Copied from the nvidia glossary:


Bump Mapping
A shading technique using multiple textures and lighting effects to simulate wrinkled or bumped surfaces. Bump mapping is useful because it gives a 3D surface the appearance of roughness and other surface detail, such as dimples on a golf ball, without increasing the geometric complexity. Some common types of bump mapping are Emboss Bump Mapping, Dot3 Bump Mapping, Environment Mapped Bump Mapping (EMBM) and True, Reflective Bump Mapping. Dot3 bump mapping is the most effective technique of the three.


Rouge Leader's use of BumpMapping is pretty obvious, but most other games on GC I didn't notice any BumpMapping as in "gives a 3D surface the appearance of roughness and other surface detail, such as dimples on a golf ball, without increasing the geometric complexity".
I'm only 60% through Starfox Adventures, but apart from Fox's Starwing I didn't notice any BumpMapping at all (but some nice fur shading).

Not that Gamecube couldn't handle it, but AFAIK most games just don't put it to an "in your face" use. There could be of course numerous games using "BumpMapping-calculations" for other matters than making walls bumpy or water reflective. Console developers can be pretty creative wth given ressources/capabilities, just look at PS2.

 

[zurich]

Halo and Rallisport are probably the best examples of bump mapping done well on Xbox imo.

 

[mr]

Hi Zurich,

I agree.

cybamerc:

I too think there is some confusion about what BumpMapping is and what it looks like. Some people confuse it with specular highlights (it's shiny == BumpMapping), some with great Texture Detail/Artwork (looks bumpy == BumpMapping).

 

[cybamerc]

zurich:

> Halo and Rallisport are probably the best examples of bump mapping
> done well on Xbox imo.

I dunno... Halo doesn't use that much bump mapping and when it does there's a huge difference between the look of the bump mapped surfaces and the regular vertex lit surfaces. Rallisport I'm not so sure uses bump mapping at all. The ice (which is the only thing that looks remotely bumpy to me) could be done with a gloss map.

Shrek, while not artistically pleasing, is really doing some cool things. Every surface is bump mapped and shadow volumes everywhere. It was doing most of the things ppl are praising Doom 3 and Halo 2 for back in 2001 (obviously the quality isn't quite the same but it's still pretty impressive).

 

[DeathKnight]

Halo not using bumpmappig that much? It uses it on damn near every service. Lots and lots of DOT3. Rallisport uses it on a few surfaces including the ice.

 

[cybamerc]

DeathKnight:

> Halo not using bumpmappig that much? It uses it on damn near every
> service.

That's simply not true.

> Rallisport uses it on a few surfaces including the ice.

How can you be so sure? Have the developers talked about it? There is a certain flatness to the highlights that lead me to believe it's just a gloss map. And what other surfaces than the ice do you believe are bump mapped.

 

[DeathKnight]

That's simply not true.

Looks like you either haven't really played the game or you don't have a good eye for detail. Nearly every service is bumpmapped.

As for Rallisport, the ice may be the only surface that is bumpmapped. It's not just gloss. The bumpmapping is clearly visible.

 

[DeathKnight]

The keyword is nearly. There are surfaces in Halo that are not bumpmapped, but then again they didn't need the extra detail.

Here are a few examples (most all detail is achieved through DOT3 bumpmaps):

As for the Cube, I don't know of many games that have bumpmapping. I think it only supports EMBM and DOT3.

 

[zurich]

For Halo, well, to be completely honest, I don't really notice the bumpmapping that much until I turn on the flashlight. Then its like, This is especially obvious in the library and covenant cruiser. Lots of little subtle details on character models, vehicles, and stuff though.

(IMO DK's screenshots dont really do much for the argument )

In Rallisport, the track is clearly bumpmapped. This is most obvious in the Ice stages (as you fishtail around the bumps move realistically), and tarmac (Desert tracks).

Most bumps aren't obvious until you have a directional lightsource on them, which is why you can clearly see them in the above instances (Sun on Ice & tarmac desert tracks, and Halo flashlight).

 

[yipchunyu]

will bm run on gc place great burden to it? People say MP is not technical advance as it don't use any bm. i just want to know that if they do it one any game with a modified engine (based on MP) can they still maintain 60fps?

 

[Plasmatics]