How strong an influence has BAPCo had on MadOnion benchmarks

[Nagorak]

Who cares about MadOnion anyway...3DMark might as well be called nVidiaMark....

Not any more

Anyway, R9700 seems to do better on all 'nvidia-centric' tests. Have you seen our ChameleonMark scores lately?

Maybe that will finally show people that those benchmarks arent optimized for NVIDIA hardware.

Uhh...Nvidia makes ChameleonMark, how can you say it's not optimized for them?

 

[Doomtrooper]

Shhh! People are going to figure out that R300 is really based on NV30 technology

 

[ben6]

Those tests were never really NVIDIA centric. Hell I've had both Matrox and ATI say they've outscored Ti4600 with Parhelia and 9700 in Chameleonmark hehe and suggest I use it. (don't remember if it was Dave Nalasco or Stanley Ossias in San Francisco who said it and Matrox's PR rep said something similar at E3 showing off the Parhelia. But of course there will be conspiracy theories

 

[Reverend]

I don't think Patric, Nicke or Markus would mind me saying that the industry as a whole has an influence on MadOnion products.

A little off topic - Markus is not with MadOnion.com anymore, not since January. He's still a MO director but he is now full-time with Remedy (which he co-found of course) working on Max Payne 2.

 

[AzBat]

I don't think Patric, Nicke or Markus would mind me saying that the industry as a whole has an influence on MadOnion products.

A little off topic - Markus is not with MadOnion.com anymore, not since January. He's still a MO director but he is now full-time with Remedy (which he co-found of course) working on Max Payne 2.

Yeah, I got an email from him a couple of weeks ago. He seems to be doing great. He got me in contact with Nathan Harley too. He seems to be doing great as well. He still lives in Toronto.

Tommy McClain

 

[Reverend]

Markus has gone back to doing what his heart has been telling him to do

 

[Dio]

Those tests were never really NVIDIA centric. Hell I've had both Matrox and ATI say they've outscored Ti4600 with Parhelia and 9700 in Chameleonmark hehe and suggest I use it.

That's one of the reasons I think hardware companies should shy away from writing benchmarks. It just gives the competition a big stick to beat you over the head with later...

 

[Mummy]

I find rather funny that 3dmark is now being attacked because is cpu intenstive, i remember madonion guys were criticized and most ppl said 3DMark 2000 wasnt a "game" (but was more a vcard test) so it had nothing to do with a game, now that new 3dmark issued those critics its being criticized because it does what ppl asked it to do

 

[Above]

There's nothing wrong with pointing out the alliance with Bapco and that the CPU and its bandwidth is stressed. There is an obvious motive.

Ironically, game designers are finding the safest way to program graphics is to rely on the CPU. I don't think it does 3D any good either but at least the benchmark is appearing more relevant.

 

[Doomtrooper]

I find rather funny that 3dmark is now being attacked because is cpu intenstive, i remember madonion guys were criticized and most ppl said 3DMark 2000 wasnt a "game" (but was more a vcard test) so it had nothing to do with a game, now that new 3dmark issued those critics its being criticized because it does what ppl asked it to do

3Dmark 2001 doesn't reflect gaming peformance either...a Geforce 2 MX scores higher than Kyro cards yet in MAX PAYNE gets killed by the Kyro

...this benchmark was showing a P4 Wiliamette beating a AMD Thunderbird...OK but in the real world in Unreal Tournament a CPU intensive game it was getting killed

So tell me exactly what is accurate about this benchmark, IMO its whoever pays the most cash as it certainly doesn't reflect games today.

 

[Neeyik]

Ah, the good ol' Kyro thing. Granted, 3DMark and Kyros don't get on and the benchmark is not a totally accurate reflection of the card's overall performance. However, we're talking about 2 chips here - Kyro I and II - compared against the rest which, on the whole, fit the pattern between 3DMark and games in general pretty well.

Also remember that 3DMark was designed to show what DX8 games could be like in the near-future (with respects to the release date of 3DMark 2001). Hindsight has shown that the trend in game design hasn't followed the predictions of 3DMark all that closely - most of the game tests are using vertex shaders, but where are they in current games?

The second part of your post Doomtrooper isn't particularly clear. What are you trying to show? Where in the Max Payne tests is it a P4 and where is it a T-bird?

 

[Doomtrooper]

Neeyik...when running the benchmark what does it say in the corner...the gamers benchmark...correct ??
3Dmark is supposed to reflect gaming peformance..

The Gamer's Benchmark 3DMark®2001 SE is the latest installment in the popular 3DMark series. By combining DirectX®8.1 support with completely new graphics, it continues to provide benchmark results that empower you to make informed hardware assessments. As with all MadOnion.com internet-enabled benchmarks, 3DMark2001 SE has been created in cooperation with the major 3D accelerator and processor manufacturers to provide you with the best possible and most reliable set of diagnostic tools. We’ve also included a completely new demo-mode, which demonstrates some of the latest innovations and advances that real-time 3D Graphics can offer!

Using Remedy Entertainment's acclaimed MAX-FX Technologyâ„¢, 3DMark2001 SE demonstrates how to maximize your 3D gaming performance by using real-world gaming technology to test your system's true game performance abilities.

The Kyro is simply better than a Geforce 2...but not according this benchmark...even using the same engine.

The second part showing UT is how can a P4 1.4-1.5 beat a Thunderbird in scoring (were talking 1 year ago) in a CPU intensive benchmark (like stated here many times) when in the real game CPU intensive games (like UT) it was not even close ??
Now a 'average' gamer would jump on the ORB with his AMD powered KyroII system...say 1.33 Tbird and 64 meg Kyro II and see wow..this P4 1.4 system and a Geforce 2 MX are faster..I'm gonna get me a P4 and Geforce 2

If you don't think that happens 'believe it' as I ran a gaming computer company for three years and had kids coming in with printouts of 3Dmark with comparisons of friends that they wanted to 'beat'.

 

[Neeyik]

Hang on a minute. Quake 3 Arena, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, Soldier of Fortune 2, Star Trek: Elite Force, Alice, et al all use the "same engine" but the performance between them all is quite different. 3DMark and Max Payne are based around the same engine but in the same way that the above games are really quite different, so are MP and 3DM2k1.

As for the P4/Athlon thing, am I reading the same thing as you?

P4 1.5GHz = 100 fps
Athlon 1GHz = 100 fps

I know what you were referring to, of course - the Athlon score using the KT133 chipset. The AMD 760 setup gets the 100 fps result - same as a P4 chip.

 

[Tahir2]

Yea but the P4 was at a 50% higher clockspeed and at that time probably cost 3x as much.

This is what DT was probably referring to.

 

[Neeyik]

I still don't get what Doomtrooper's point about the CPU business is supposed to prove - if it's indeed supposed to prove anything. Oh why bother anyway; as far as MO/3DM are concerned I've yet to see DT ever concede a point or agree with anything in their "favour", regardless of whether the point is a benefit to his beloved ATI

One last thing though - DT, if you are going to raise an argument then at least be consistent...

Max Payne Scores
GeForce2 GTS = 36.1 fps
Kyro II 64MB = 30.1 fps
GeForce2 MX = 20.6 fps

I'm gonna get me a P4 and Geforce 2

Which would be the right thing to do as it's faster in MP than a Kyro II!


...and before anyone jumps down my throat, yes I KNOW he meant GF2 MX...

 

[Reverend]

I still don't get what Doomtrooper's point about the CPU business is supposed to prove - if it's indeed supposed to prove anything. Oh why bother anyway; as far as MO/3DM are concerned I've yet to see DT ever concede a point or agree with anything in their "favour", regardless of whether the point is a benefit to his beloved ATI

With my own italics in the above quote, perhaps that should tell you why it is useless to argue with certain individuals in this forum or try to discuss certain things with certain individuals in this forum.

 

[Neeyik]

Well it wasn't meant as a particularly serious point. I do find it sad (rather than annoying) that more and more people are willing to take potshots at MadOnion because of a piece of software. I've read all kinds of accusations made at them over the years and because it still persists, other folks, new to the scene, read this and often think likewise.

I've had many a discussion with people who've harped on about why 3DMark is totally wrong, using arguments they've read from websites and discussion boards. Yet, when questioned in detail, they cannot further "their" own points and if shown specific facts, I usually get in reply "well, that's not what xxxxx said". The discussion can often continue further but with it still being pinned down on the one thing - that some people are so focussed on what they believe is the truth, that no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. A classic example of recent times is the business with anistropic filtering and the Radeon 8500. A few people shout "cheat" without the faintest idea what they're talking about and all of a sudden, we see it repeated on various websites - refusing to include R200 AF tests because it "cheats".

 

[Tahir2]

Hmm.. DT can defend himself but I thought I would point out that he is trumpetting the Kyro II here, not an ATI card.

So er maybe DT just hates NVIDIA.. hehe 8)

 

[Neeyik]

And just to deflect any potential "beat Neeyik up" posts, the above comments were not directed at DT or anyone in particular. Heaven only knows the amount of times posts get misread or misinterpreted...

Concerning the amount of general flak NVIDIA takes, one has to wonder if the likes of David Kirk ever wakes up in the morning and thinks "Those bar stewards NVIDIA! I'll show them! Cheating in antialiasing! Blurring!!?!?"

 

[Galilee]

The only card I can see that don't show it's potensial in 3DMark is the Kyro cards. Both ATI, NVIDIA and Matrox perform in 3dmark pretty accurate compared to a lot of D3D-games.