How strong an influence has BAPCo had on MadOnion benchmarks

Entropy

Veteran
It seems that BAPCo is finally getting the kind of attention it should have had long ago. Go to http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5092 for a few relevant links. Incidentally, it has been known for years that BAPCo is a front for Intel. BAPCo has served the purpose of decoupling Intel from its own benchmarks so that they can refer to 'independent benchmarks' in their marketing material. No big surprise there, but they have marketed Sysmark to others though, and for some odd reason, websites and print have kept on using BAPCo Sysmark in spite of its obvious function as a marketing tool for Intel. AMD apparently got fed up with this state of affairs, and did a surprise move - they joined BAPCo and thus managed to get access to some inside material, material you can partake of in this pdf:http://www.vanshardware.com/reviews.../SYSmark 2002 Analysis Presentation FINAL.pdf if interested.

Now to the point here. I remember reading about the BAPCo and MadOnion "strategic alliance" when it became official, and wondering how this would affect MadOnions products. The ties are apparently strong enough that BAPCo has its own tab at the top of the MadOnion website.

So the quesion now is - how much input has BAPCo had on MadOnion benchmarks? The BAPCo page on MadOnions site says this:
In November 1999, BAPCo formed a strategic alliance with MadOnion.comâ„¢. As the leading provider of PC performance and upgrade information, MadOnion.com combined their strengths of Internet integration with BAPCo's technical expertise in business benchmarking. This strategic alliance enables the two companies to continue to develop enhanced online benchmarking products that allow users to compare their systems globally.
From BAPCos website:
BAPCo and its member companies are excited about the strategic alliance with MadOnion.com," says Andreas Uiterwijk, President of BAPCo. "This alliance will strategically enhance the ability of both companies to create and deliver both consumer and business benchmarking products. BAPCo’s leadership in developing industry standard benchmarks, and MadOnion.com’s marketing support and Internet-based engine, will create a synergy for success, benefiting all PC users.

WebMark would seem to be a direct result of BAPCo/MadOnion.
However, the amount of BAPCo input is less clear regarding PCMark2002, and present and future versions of 3DMark. The above quotes would seem to imply that the collaboration would extend to these products as well.

Anyone in the know care to comment?

Entropy

PS. Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but I couldn't figure out the proper one, and this is where most of the traffic is. Moderators, please feel free to move this post if you consider it appropriate. The 3DMark series of benchmarks have a very strong position in the industry, so it is not entirely misplaced in "Technology".
 
As many people have already pointed out, 3Dmark is currently more a CPU benchmark than a graphics card tester...
 
Nice, in-depth comment there Bogotron. I wonder if it is ever possible to have a discussion on forums without one person making some cheap, provocative, flaming or otherwise not-in-the-least-bit-useful-to-the-topic statement...

I don't think Patric, Nicke or Markus would mind me saying that the industry as a whole has an influence on MadOnion products. To think otherwise wouldn't make sense; how could you start work on a future version of DirectX without support from hardware manufacturers? The key word here though is influence - at the end of the day, the benchmarks do what MadOnion wants them to.
 
I wonder if this is the reason why Intel does VERY well in PCMark compared to AMD. But no surprice there, I have never trusted PCMark. It keeps insisting that my RAID disks are slower than one disk alone :)
 
Neeyik:
You're completely correct. Sorry. :oops:

(Note to self: Never read forums right before early morning meetings.)
 
Neeyik < feels a touch embarrassed himself now :oops:

(Note to self: Don't bite everyone's head off when they say something about MadOnion or their products...)
 
Who cares about MadOnion anyway...3DMark might as well be called nVidiaMark....

(NOTE: The above statement is nothing more than a test for Neeyik to see if he can restrain himself from biting my head off... ;))
 
Must.....not....bite.....
Must.....not....bite.....

:devilish:

(Something pops with the strain....ffttoink!)
 
3Dmark 2001 is a CPU intensive test, at least the 1st edition was..I took it off my system when the SE version was released. Looking into the orb the fastest platforms score the highest marks...this is a very CPU intensive/platform benchmark.

Q: Which CPU's does 3DMark2001 SE detect and support?
A: 3DMark2001 SE supports at least the following CPUs: Intel - Pentium MMX, Pentium II, Pentium II Xeon, Pentium III, Pentium III (Coppermine), Pentium III Xeon, Pentium III Mobile (Tualatin), Pentium 4, Celeron, Celeron A, Celeron with SSE. AMD - K6, K6-2, K6-2+, K6-III, Athlon, Athlon XP, Athlon MP/4, Duron. VIA - Cyrix M2, Cyrix III, IDT Winchip 2, Ezra. As 3DMark2001 SE is very CPU-intensive, we recommend using modern processors only.

Ummm right from the FAQ on Madonion...so denying it is ..silly.
http://service.madonion.com/servlet...yid=2&category=OPTIMIZATIONS&search=1
 
Ummm right from the FAQ on Madonion...so denying it is ..silly.
Who denied that 3DMark was CPU-intensive? What 3D game, consistently using over 20k polys per frame, isn't going to be? Bogotron had said that 3DMark was more of a CPU benchmark than a graphics one - I reacted to that because (a) it had nothing to do with the topic at hand and (b) I read it as an inaccurate criticism of the program.
 
Must.....not....bite.....

Lol Neeyik... ;)

Truthfully though, with rumors of DX9 supporting multiple Pixel Shader versions, I am very interested, if not hesitant, to see how MadOnion handles this in "3D Mark 2002" or whatever it's going to be called.
 
Neeyik,

I tend to agree with him, but replace CPU benchmark with platform as memory throughput and chipset seem to impact the scores as much as changing a video card.

I also remember the P4's scoring better than Thunderbird systems when the P4 was still getting hammered in gaming performance...P4 1.4's Willy's were beating 1.33 Thunderbirds but in real game scenarios the Willys were getting killed...makes no sense at all.
 
...but replace CPU benchmark with platform as memory throughput and chipset seem to impact the scores as much as changing a video card.
Too much of an open statement that as it depends entirely on what you changing from and what you are changing too. Besides, 3DMark isn't supposed to be a pure graphics card benchmark; it is meant to examine the 3D "gaming" performance of the system being tested. Yes I know some of you here will poo-poo any such claims by MadOnion (and from the various posts I've read here over the years, purely on the basis that it is MadOnion saying these things) but that's what the product is for.
Truthfully though, with rumors of DX9 supporting multiple Pixel Shader versions, I am very interested, if not hesitant, to see how MadOnion handles this in "3D Mark 2002" or whatever it's going to be called.
It could possibly be done as with 3DMark 2001 - by that I mean, aim for the lowest version of VS/PS supported in DirectX 9. 2001 used PS1.0 in Nature and AFAIK, VS1.0 everywhere else.
 
Neeyik:
No problems. My comment was uncalled for. I must always remember the old saying "Think twice, post once." :D

(I also feel the need to contribute something on-topic to redeem myself somehow)

After reading the article on vanshardware.com, I'm left with a "I kinda assumed they were a little bit slanted, but this... this is impressive!". Impressive that they've gotten away with it for so long that is.

Somehow I think Madonion is different, possibly because they know they won't get away with it, or maybe because they simply don't do that sort of stuff. There have been times when 3Dmark has been accused of being biased one way or the other, but so far no-one has been able to build a convincing case (innocent until proven guilty and all that). As a synthetic systems benchmark it is neither complete nor 100% relevant in all cases, but it's a good start.

This will boil down to what kind of product the management (and employees) of madonion want to make. If they are under pressure from one/more vendors to optimise for/favorise a specific product line it won't really matter if they're buddies with BAPCo or not (unless BAPCo now owns their.. ehm.. posteriors :) ), they will do what is in agreement with their long-term vision for their company. I don't think they would be willing to risk such a move with the potential long-term loss of credibility if they're ever found out. Without credibility they are nothing. A lot of people have been looking long and hard at 3Dmark scores and there hasn't been a lot of contrete indicators of BAPCo'ing going on. (Then again, it all depends on which forums you visit...)

If madonion becomes/is as bad as BAPCo, I think the non-favoured companies will do more or less what AMD did. Put some people on it and dig up the dirty stuff. I don't think anyone can pull off such a stunt for an extrended period of time without the IHVs getting the wind of it.
 
http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=3427&t=sn

"AMD joins BAPCo"

edit:
just read the AMD pdf at van's hardware. Intel and BAPCo are busted on this one.

SysMark 2002 may still be useful in comparing the performance increase of 1 processor over another in the same family (P4 vs P4 or AXP vs AXP), but not for comparing different processors (P4 vs AXP). P4 vs AXP scores quoted by any web sites should be completely ignored. It will be interesting to see which web sites have the integrity to either pull this benchmark from their suite or limit the use as described in the first sentence in this paragraph.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Who cares about MadOnion anyway...3DMark might as well be called nVidiaMark....
Not any more :D

Anyway, R9700 seems to do better on all 'nvidia-centric' tests. Have you seen our ChameleonMark scores lately? :)
 
pxc said:
http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=3427&t=sn

"AMD joins BAPCo"

edit:
just read the AMD pdf at van's hardware. Intel and BAPCo are busted on this one.

SysMark 2002 may still be useful in comparing the performance increase of 1 processor over another in the same family (P4 vs P4 or AXP vs AXP), but not for comparing different processors (P4 vs AXP). P4 vs AXP scores quoted by any web sites should be completely ignored. It will be interesting to see which web sites have the integrity to either pull this benchmark from their suite or limit the use as described in the first sentence in this paragraph.

Are you insinuating large monopolies are using shady tactics and corrupt benchmarks to increase sales :LOL: :D
 
Dio said:
Joe DeFuria said:
Who cares about MadOnion anyway...3DMark might as well be called nVidiaMark....
Not any more :D

Anyway, R9700 seems to do better on all 'nvidia-centric' tests. Have you seen our ChameleonMark scores lately? :)
Shhh! People are going to figure out that R300 is really based on NV30 technology :eek: :D
 
Dio said:
Joe DeFuria said:
Who cares about MadOnion anyway...3DMark might as well be called nVidiaMark....
Not any more :D

Anyway, R9700 seems to do better on all 'nvidia-centric' tests. Have you seen our ChameleonMark scores lately? :)

Maybe that will finally show people that those benchmarks arent optimized for NVIDIA hardware.
 
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