How come Xbox 2 leaks so much more than PS3 or GC 2?

[FatherJohn]

I was looking over the Gaming Age Forums this afternoon, and I noticed that we pretty much seem to have a detailed spec of the Xbox 2 CPU GPU and system architecture available to us. (And apparently this info has been available for some time, thanks to leaked documents apparently lifted from the Xbox 2 development kit.)

It occurs to me that I haven't seen anything like this for the other next-gen consoles.

Why is that?

Is it that Microsoft leaks like a sieve?

- No This doesn't seem to be the case. So far no leaks seem to be traceable to Microsoft directly. (Perhaps they're devious, but why would they leak?)

- On the other hand, Microsoft is inherently disposed to share API information with developers, since that's one way they made Windows so successfull. Maybe they just don't know how to keep a secret?

Is it that Xbox 2 developers leak like sieves?

- This seems to be fairly likely. Devs love to talk about the hardware they're working on. Especially smaller dev shops. Maybe one of them leaked it. (I think the leaked docs showed up on a Chinese web forum first.)

Is it that IBM or ATI leak like a sieve?

- Not really. IBM has only leaked once, when they sent an internal email crowing about the Xbox 2 CPU design win, but nothing since then. ATI has leaked various details of the GPU in their quarterly conference calls, but nothing really juicy. (Besides this summer when they said that the bulk of the GPU design work was done.)

Is it that Xbox 2 is more interesting to web denizens than PS3 or GC2?

- Yes, in that ATI technology is also interesting to PC graphics fans, who are not otherwise interested in consoles.

- No in that more people are probably interested in PS3 specs.

To look at the opposite side, hard information on PS3 and GC2 seems pretty hard to come by. (I discount marketecture fluff published by Sony, and "it'll be revolutionary, trust us" fluff published by Nintendo.)

Is it that the specs are in Japanese, and therefore doesn't make it onto the English-Language web?

- Yes, that's probably part of the reason. But wouldn't EA be given English docs? Maybe the specs have only been shared with the top-tier developers, who are good at keeping secrets.

- No, even if the specs were in Japanese, the "speeds and feeds" numbers would be easy to translate.

Are Japanese companies and developers better at operational security than non-Japanese developers?

- The answer to this seems to be Yes. But with over half the hits this generation coming from non-Japanese developers, you think Sony would be courting some non-Japanese devs for launch. Why haven't they leaked?

Is it that Sony and Nintendo are just restricting the information to fewer devs and fewer people within each company?

- If so, how many launch titles are actually in development for each console?

Is the PS3 and GC2 just far behind the Xbox 2?

- No, not the PS3, at least not if you go by history and by rumored launch dates.

- On the other hand, we haven't had many rumors of PS3 dev kits, to match all the rumors of Xbox 2 dev kits. Maybe PS3 is actually quite a bit later than Xbox 2. (Or again, maybe the PS3 dev kits are out there, but people just aren't talking about them.)

Will Sony announce anything at a chip design conference, like they did for the PS2 CPU ?

- If so, when? Wasn't the PS2 announcement in December?

Well, presumably all this will be resolved by E3 2005 at the latest.

 

[Farid]

The answer is quite simple, and you pointed out, we have more infos about Xenon, because there's more infos available about it, available to a lot of developers around the world, incrasing the possibility of a leak, just as you said.
OTOH the PS3 is pure abstraction, and the Revolution is only a name for the moment, i'm certain a few key developers in Japan have a few infos about them, but i'm also certain the infos aren't as clear as Xenon's.

By the way, you bring an interesting point about the PS3 and Revolution launch date (supposed to be close to each other) compared to Xenon's.
Developers had the XeDK last years and are working on their games for Q4 2005.
OTOH, the PS3 rumored to be on japaneses shelves around Q1/Q2 2006, and then all around the world in Q4 2006, is still a mistery for a lot of developers, especially westerns developers...

 

[Megadrive1988]

the floodgates seem to be half-way open regarding Xenon / Xbox 2 info.

I'd assume things will start to open up on the PS3 side of things early next year, which isnt too far off now

as for GCNext / Revolution, I'd imagine Nintendo will keep things close to their vest (or is it chest) until later into 05.

 

[Inane_Dork]

The two biggest reasons, IMO:
1) The X2 is much nearer to now than the PS3 or Revolution.
2) Microsoft's "secrets" are often known months in advance (i.e. purchasing Rare).

 

[Megadrive1988]

The X2 is much nearer to now than the PS3 or Revolution.

I was gonna say just that, but felt it was too obvious.

 

[Martin Eddy]

Is it possible that XBox2/Xenon needs to build hype to get more developers on board. Where as Sony feel that they don't need to work so hard at getting support?

 

[McFly]

There are many developers already working on PS3 games. I'm not sure how much infos they have, maybe just some vague numbers for achievable polygons and ram size so they can start with the artwork ... art creation will take a lot of time next gen and I'm sure a developer can work a full year or more in adavnce on the artworks alone before he needs final devkits to start coding the game.

Fredi

 

[FatherJohn]

I just realized that I forgot a big source of info on PS3 and GC2: patents. Haven't some Cell and probably also PS3 related patents surfaced? And I know that the N64 was patented in detail back in its day.

I guess MS doesn't do that with Xbox. (Or maybe the patents haven't issued yet?)

But the pre-production patents tend not to give speeds or sizes, so they are not quite as detailed as I'd like.

 

[Evil_Cloud]

Seriously, at the beginning of next year Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony will all jump into a higher 'public' gear. E3 2005 will be the first big thing for all three consoles, but I am sure all three will hype their products sky high somewhat before that to boosten the anticipation even more.

Xenon: CES 2005?
PlayStation 3: 31 december 2004?
Revolution: Pre-E3 2005?

No one is going to give their competition a long head start. When Xenon launches in de United States, I am sure PlayStation 3 and or Revolution will launch before/at the same time/shortly after in Japan. In a few months you are going to be overwhelmed with information and specs.

 

[Qroach]

Is it possible that XBox2/Xenon needs to build hype to get more developers on board. Where as Sony feel that they don't need to work so hard at getting support?

It's possible, but don't think that's the case when we hear from developers working on games. It could be simply, that there isn't much info to release on the PS3, and this is why we haven't seem many comments from development houses regarding it.

 

[one]

Is it that Xbox 2 is more interesting to web denizens than PS3 or GC2?

- Yes, in that ATI technology is also interesting to PC graphics fans, who are not otherwise interested in consoles.

Do you ever realize that Nintendo GameCube (and possiblly Revolution) is made up of IBM's Gekko and ATi's Flipper?

I just realized that I forgot a big source of info on PS3 and GC2: patents. Haven't some Cell and probably also PS3 related patents surfaced?

Eh... just use the 'search' feature in this very forum to search dozens of topics about Cell patents. Searching 'cell' AND 'patent' in Console Talk... Search found 143 matches. 'cell' AND 'sony' gave me 421 matches, the oldest in 2002. Thank you.

 

[one]

Regarding PS3, how can you forget the recent launch proceedings of PSP? IIRC Ken Kutaragi confirmed that the PS3's schedule is just 1 year later than the PSP's.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I can tell you one thing for sure - engineering wise, ATI's side is locked down tight. I can usually get something out of someone for some future product from ATI, but not about Xenon graphics. Even people within ATI who would normally have a general idea on where various projects are don't know anything about the status or technicals of this. Physically the project appears to be coming out of the Marlborough office, and their location away from the the guys who are currently doing the mainstay of the PC work is helping things not leak from their side, so it seems.

The leaks are almost certainly coming from the fact that there is already a lot of information on it in developers hands.

 

[passerby]

Haven't some Cell and probably also PS3 related patents surfaced?

As mentioned already you can find them. But seriously, don't think too much about them even after you've read them. After about 2 years of discussion on these boards we're still about equivalent to playing pool in a room with no light. Besides, end of FY 04 is just... 3 months away.

 

[FatherJohn]

Regarding PS3, how can you forget the recent launch proceedings of PSP? IIRC Ken Kutaragi confirmed that the PS3's schedule is just 1 year later than the PSP's.

I'm mostly interested in technical details, not release dates.

But since you raised release dates. With apparently so little game developement taking place for PS3 now, perhaps they plan to lauch with very few games (like the PS2 Japanese launch). I wonder if that would work as well this time. Last time they benefited from monsterous hype and being a cheap DVD player. This time it's unlikely that the hype will be as large, or that the Blu-Ray player will be as compelling. (Blu-Ray will become more compelling over time, as more people get HD TVs and as more Blu-Ray content becomes available.)

It's also possible that they're playing a FUD game with the Xbox 2 launch, trying to encorage Microsoft to release early. If Xbox 2 releases before PS3, then Sony is certainly going to try to encourage consumers to wait just a few extra months for the PS3. (Then they can slip their release date a few months at a time until they actually release. They did this very successfully with PS2 against the Dreamcast last time. I think they were able to convince many US fans to wait over a year.)

 

[MrSingh]

as far PS3, there isn't much to tell at this point.

 

[FatherJohn]

I can tell you one thing for sure - engineering wise, ATI's side is locked down tight. I can usually get something out of someone for some future product from ATI, but not about Xenon graphics. Even people within ATI who would normally have a general idea on where various projects are don't know anything about the status or technicals of this. Physically the project appears to be coming out of the Marlborough office, and their location away from the the guys who are currently doing the mainstay of the PC work is helping things not leak from their side, so it seems.

The PC team is the West Coast team, right? Mostly former ArtX exgineers, that did both the GameCube and later the 9700 and follow-on cards. They seem like they'd be the natural team to do the next Nintendo GPU. Any hints about Nintendo?

 

[cybamerc]

There are several reasons why we have so much info on Xbox 2 as opposed to the other system. One is that the system is coming out sooner and therefor is further along than both PS3 and GC2. M$ is shipping dev kits to certain developers and while they don't have final hardware yet M$ can provide much more detailed info than its two competitors. Another reason is that M$ works primarily with Western developers. Western developers can't keep a secret. And finally M$ leaks a lot of stuff itself to generate hype. Sony and, in particular, Nintendo are much more secretive.

 

[Qroach]

And finally M$ leaks a lot of stuff itself to generate hype.

I think that is more of an opinion than actual fact. There's a reason why developers have an NDA regarding specifics on xbox 2, that being MS doesn't want people to know those details. I don't think they are leaking information that the general public simply wouldn't understand, as that wouldn't achieve a thing.

I'm sure we'll see some leaks on PS3 that comes from development houses and not sony itself. But those dev houses need to get the information first.

 

[one]

But since you raised release dates. With apparently so little game developement taking place for PS3 now, perhaps they plan to lauch with very few games (like the PS2 Japanese launch). I wonder if that would work as well this time. Last time they benefited from monsterous hype and being a cheap DVD player. This time it's unlikely that the hype will be as large, or that the Blu-Ray player will be as compelling. (Blu-Ray will become more compelling over time, as more people get HD TVs and as more Blu-Ray content becomes available.)

Well you can also think like this - when PS2 was released, it had the backward compatibility to PS1 games. But not only that, it's enhanced with faster loading speed and graphics emulation via GS. Then, in the late 2005, you'll get the last generation big PS2 games, FF12 or something like that, and people will buy PS3 instead of PS2 as it's expected to have similar enhancements and goodies like Blu-ray. Actually in the PS2 launch this backward compatibility hurt the sales of PS2 games, but it went well eventually.

As For PSP, I'm talking about the schedule of developing launch games. It'll take longer to make a PS3 title than a PSP title (Ridge Racers for PSP was developed in less than a year, initially with PS2 dev tools), guess the rest by yourself. If Sony can make good dev libraries for PS3, it doesn't matter if it arrives later.