How come N64 games generally had poor framerates?

[fearsomepirate]

The RAM upgrade doesn't sole the latency problem, the texture cache problem, or the libraries problem. That seems pretty much to be the core of the whole thing. Access to microcode at the end of the lifecycle allowed developers to unleash the power of what those chips could do. Indiana Jones, Shadow Man, Rogue Leader, and World Driver Championship all look almost a generation ahead of just about anything else available on the platform by allowing developers to work around the platform's severe limitations.

I think just better RAM and a larger texture cache alone would have made a world of difference on the machine.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I still have my N64, and my MK4 too. And I have to say that it´s very hard to call it very detailed, even for its time.

But the backgrounds of Killer Instinct Gold are quite detailed, and that game does run at 60fps.

 

[Squeak]

my "ideal" Nintendo 64 would've been...

Let me try that.

- 64DD as primary and only storage medium (cheaper games and larger storage from the get-go, plus very large saves).
- Larger and/or better/faster texture cache (large enough to accommodate 128^2 textures with ease).
- Segmented memory, 1Mb Rambus VRAM and 3Mb low latency DRAM for CPU and sound.
- Separate sound processor with some of the channels as FM synth (because I love the sound and it saves RAM) rest normal compressed PCM.
- Two-prong controller with with power-trough in the expansion-port for rumble and other peripherals (same as normal N64 controller only without d-pad and R-button) and a more durable analog stick.
- Somewhat higher clock of all components coupled with better cooling, either through a quite fan or larger vents.
- 320x240 as lowest allowed resolution.
- A cheap optional 56K modem pushed hard from day one.

Actually Nintendo did make an improved N64, where they corrected a lot of the mistakes of the original, the iQ.

 

[I.S.T.]

Those square emulators ran at decent speed nonetheless though, and were very accurate emulations as well.

except when doing the damned wind/starting battle sound effects in FF6.

It's not that surprising though, considering only one or two emulators for the PC get it right...

 

[Fox5]

except when doing the damned wind/starting battle sound effects in FF6.

It's not that surprising though, considering only one or two emulators for the PC get it right...

And most likely run on hardware far more powerful than the 33mhz PSX. (though the effects probably could have been reprogrammed to run better on the psx through framebuffer effects or just as a 3d overlay)

 

[Reznor007]

And most likely run on hardware far more powerful than the 33mhz PSX. (though the effects probably could have been reprogrammed to run better on the psx through framebuffer effects or just as a 3d overlay)

Sound effects would work better when done via the framebuffer? Neato....

Although actually noone has perfect SNES sound emulation. Everything is just a little bit off.

FF6 PSX can't be considered an accurate emulator though. Even the fastest PC SNES emulator requires 200+MHz for playable speed, and that's an emu that doesn't even do proper cycle counting.

 

[Tagrineth]

except when doing the damned wind/starting battle sound effects in FF6.

It's not that surprising though, considering only one or two emulators for the PC get it right...

Actually, they don't. They replace the "noise" sounds that are broken with simulated sound effects.

 

[Fox5]

Sound effects would work better when done via the framebuffer? Neato....

Although actually noone has perfect SNES sound emulation. Everything is just a little bit off.

FF6 PSX can't be considered an accurate emulator though. Even the fastest PC SNES emulator requires 200+MHz for playable speed, and that's an emu that doesn't even do proper cycle counting.

Whoops, I saw effects without the sound in front of it.

And what's your definition of an accurate emulator? As long as it plays the game mostly correctly...
Though the emulator used in square's PSX games likely wouldn't work well (or at all) for other games.

 

[I.S.T.]

Actually, they don't. They replace the "noise" sounds that are broken with simulated sound effects.

Bsnes supposedly gets it right(I'd try it out if my PC wasn't so slow), and apparently the new version of Snes9x finally got them right too.

 

[Fox5]

Bsnes supposedly gets it right(I'd try it out if my PC wasn't so slow), and apparently the new version of Snes9x finally got them right too.

What made it so difficult to get right?

 

[Reznor007]

Bsnes supposedly gets it right(I'd try it out if my PC wasn't so slow), and apparently the new version of Snes9x finally got them right too.

It's not perfect yet. He has the CPU/graphics near pixel perfect though.

 

[Reznor007]

What made it so difficult to get right?

Custom sound hardware and it's extremely sensitive to timing of the G65C816/SPC700/Sound DSP communications. The sound effects Square used(IIRC) streamed samples to the DSP instead of just loading all samples at once.

 

[Guden Oden]

Wasn't writing to DSP RAM terribly incredibly SUPER slow on SNES tho? (I mean literally measured in kilobytes/sec transfer rates.) So how could you reasonably stream anything?

Writing to video RAM was amazingly slow, I talked to a SNES demo programmer, and his proportional font renderer literally drew characters on screen no faster than you could read them, and probably even slower.

 

[Reznor007]

It just worked...I don't know

The Clayfighter games also streamed a full theme song with lyrics somehow.

 

[Fox5]

It just worked...I don't know

The Clayfighter games also streamed a full theme song with lyrics somehow.

Perhaps they buffered as much as they needed and then streamed from that point out?

 

[I.S.T.]

It's not perfect yet. He has the CPU/graphics near pixel perfect though.

do you read byuu's development blog for bsnes? the major problem he has right now is the timing issues. he developed a method of multithreading on C++ that enables him to do perfect synchonization of the emulated processors. The version of bsnes that has it isn't out yet, however.

 

[Reznor007]

Yeah, I've read his stuff. I've even had brief discussions with him.

 

[Tagrineth]

Byuu's crazy. He's going to go on to do great things in programming, I suspect.

Either that or he'll fester in the Emulation community for the rest of his life, like some other people I know.

Oops.


On a more on-topic note, while the actual DSP RAM transfer rate is abysmally slow, if I remember correctly (curse you pagefault, you're never on when I have these kind of questions!), you can do some trick or another with HDMA and main memory. or something.

God, I should have pagefault explain all this stuff to me again so I can actually sound like I know what I'm talking about again...

 

[Squeak]

Wasn't writing to DSP RAM terribly incredibly SUPER slow on SNES tho? (I mean literally measured in kilobytes/sec transfer rates.) So how could you reasonably stream anything?

A few K-bytes a second should be enough if the sound you are streaming is 4bits per sample (32Khz default).

 

[I.S.T.]

Byuu's crazy. He's going to go on to do great things in programming, I suspect.

Either that or he'll fester in the Emulation community for the rest of his life, like some other people I know.

Oops.


On a more on-topic note, while the actual DSP RAM transfer rate is abysmally slow, if I remember correctly (curse you pagefault, you're never on when I have these kind of questions!), you can do some trick or another with HDMA and main memory. or something.

God, I should have pagefault explain all this stuff to me again so I can actually sound like I know what I'm talking about again...

I just wonder if he'll ever have time to finish the hacking in Der Langrisser.

or if him and D will ever get somebody to polish the script like they want. >.>