How can MS do better in Europe?

Please. You actually believe that GTA sells as a driving game? Come on.

I know it's painful for Europeans to admit that they're just as bloodthirsty (ie. human) as Americans (and Canadians :) ), but to claim that GTA sells in Europe because people like to drive around on taxi missions is ridiculous.
 
Did you miss the 'or anything else'? I mean, come on. There is so much stuff to do in GTA, but we all only love it because you can kill people? If I remember correctly, one of the main gameplay gripes people have with this game are that the shooting sucks (gameplay wise). But it's still a game loved by many. Surely it has nothing to do with the vast city, being able to fly, drive a motorcycle, do stunts, spray paint, order pizza, get fat, get a tattoo, go to the gym, buy property, pimp, and god knows what else. Noo, it's just because we LOOOVE violence. I think actually even for US residents, the love for violence over gameplay is somewhat overrated. ;)
 
[modhat]I'm gonna put an end to this discussion of European gaming tastes while there are no real numbers, because it's otherwise pointless and will derail the thread. If someone can actually present real numbers that show (relative to population), violent games sell worse/as well/better in the EU than NA, they can post them up and we can use that as a basis for considering XB360's software line-up and affects on appeal. Otherwise discussion should stick to what titles are being advertised and how they might appeal.

It's also worth noting that the idea of what appeals and doesn't, both in terms of violence and unique, niche games, has been covered in threads plenty of times before. There's no point covering those topics in depth again - it'd suffice to say 'I think MS needs to broaden their software library to attract more niche gamers' or somesuch.[/modhat]
 
exactly, there is both anti American hate and MS hate .... outside of NPD-land, I think that's exactly where the majority of 360's shortcomings lie
To be honest I'm a little tired of hearing the "they are xenophobic/anti american" because it doesn't make any sense. Not for my country and the Xbox 360 doesn't do it very well also here.

* Apple (so is Google) is an enormous popular technology brand here. They are mentioned allot (positive) in the mainstream news. Google scans some books, Apple releases Macbook Air,.. . All items in the 7 o clock news
* American movies count for about 90% of what is shown and allot of books
* American shows, sitcoms are very popular here. On VT4 for example 80% of the content is American based.
* that is also the case with American beverages and food. I even see an increase in what's available of products.

I have worked 2 years for an American company and I never ever heard one of my American colleagues complain about "anti Americanism" when they where here. <<Au contraire>>

The only remote hate for something American may be about politics but that's all.

I personally think that the negative feelings against Microsoft has allot to do with the companies culture. Which is also a reason why companies like Google and Apple are very popular here.
 
Hmm, Europeans not liking Xbox because of anti-Americanism sounds like the arguments that Europe wouldn't join the US in the war in Iraq because they were anti-American.

Makes it sound like Europeans have no rational reason to not take to the Xbox. Same thing applied to the Japanese too.
 
OK, so I'll rephrase in a clearer manner. Microsoft has, as far as I have seen, marketed the 360 almost exclusively with violent titles. I believe one of the ways it can reach a wider audience is to tone that down. They have already gained that market, and even though it attracts some it not only fails to attract, but actively repels other parts of the market*. It would make sense not to battle over the ground that is already won, but the ground where gains can still be had.

My other statement was that I do not believe Microsoft is in a position where it can gain marketshare whatever it does.
They were the first out the gate, got the early adopters, and reaped (reaps) the benefit of a larger early game library. And that was important, and ensured that they will have an entrenched position. But at this point of the game, they have no strong unique selling points, whereas both the Wii and the PS3 retain their unique selling points even as they are strengthening their weaknesses in terms of game library and installed console base.

Again, to my eye, Microsoft can only hope to slow the downward slope in marketshare.

Entropy

* Anecdote: Two weeks ago a friend of mine came down to town to buy a high-end FullHD projector. We didn't have much HD film material around, so a friend of his brought his 360 for trailers and games. All of his stuff was violent games, and he specifically took pleasure in showing of cool chainsaw kill effects in one game. My wife was disgusted and felt that the guy was sick and belonged on a psychiatric ward. I tried to tone it down and tell her that since he spent so much time playing games and watching films, his attitude to it was understandable. Emotionally stunted/retarded for an adult, yes - psycho, no. But I couldn't really convince her, and there is NO WAY she would ever buy or condone buying a 360 to anyone after that experience.
Mass marketing on violence is, IMHO, a mistake, nevermind the ethical aspects.
 
You're probably right. Even in this country, M-rated games made up only 6% of new titles overall last year. E and E+ were 74%. It's quite obvious that bigger explosions and louder guns are not what everyone is looking for.
 
That may be true, but that study was true for the US as well. As Shifty says: There is no evidence to support Europeans not liking violent games, so we should just drop it.
 
I don't think that violence is a problem but what maybe the case is game diversification or the lack of. I can't describe it but the playstation platform in the past was also the home for very "creative" or unstandard games. And I do think that Europeans also tend to like that.

Have some difficulties to describe it but games that aren't your standard fps, rpg, action game,... .
 
I don't think that violence is a problem but what maybe the case is game diversification or the lack of. I can't describe it but the playstation platform in the past was also the home for very "creative" or unstandard games. And I do think that Europeans also tend to like that.

Have some difficulties to describe it but games that aren't your standard fps, rpg, action game,... .

Well then the PS3 is just as dead as the 360. The Wii will be getting the majority of those games since it will have a huge user base lead. It was the huge market share that brought those games to the PS platform not sony. Sony is the ones who discouraged 2D during the PS1 days.
 
Well then the PS3 is just as dead as the 360.

Maybe, maybe not. The biggest three titles in this genre were Singstar, Buzz and EyeToy. Two of those are here already, and the third is coming in a few months. All of them have transitioned very well to next-gen (though EyeToy could do with a bigger title aimed at casuals than Eye of Judgment, no matter how excellent that title is - one of my own big favorites at the moment).

One of the other titles that are in my list of accessible titles (even though maybe they appeal to a more hardcore crows than general), Time Crisis, unfortunately hasn't transitioned very well. But the guncon is there, and hopefully we'll get better games for it. Of course there are also non-exclusive titles that target this market, like Guitar Hero (also transitioned fairly well, though so far the use of online is limited) and DDR which I hope will do a similar thing with downloadable tracks tailored for each region. And then the sixaxis, although not well known yet, also offers a lot of similar style gameplay. It's not taking off as fast as on the Wii, because it is more limited and because it hasn't been the main focus for the platform, but steadily there are a lot of decent titles coming out using the feature, and although hardcore gamers can sometimes be a little hostile to its implementation, it does work for 'casuals', at least according to my own little focus tests. ;)

Now there's no denying that the Wii is successfully competing for this kind of player, but that only goes to show the importance of the appeal. In the meantime, the PS3 is bringing successful upgrades of the titles that helped make the PS2 such a success in Europe, so it's at the very least not losing the appeal of the PS2, and it should certainly help at the very least against Microsoft. Note that Microsoft does put out titles like Scene It and the Vision camera, so they are aware, and are competing in this area, no doubt in part to woe the European consumer more than anything else.

A lot of people I've overheard buying a Wii typically have said stuff like that they are buying a Wii now, and will buy a PS3 about two years later, when it comes down in price (this was when it still cost 599). The only danger for the PS3 (from that perspective) is that the Wii keeps satisfying them and stops them from wanting a PS3 altogether. But I'm not convinced that will happen, though of course it does probably at least delay the PS3's pick up speed.

For Microsoft, this is the area where it will have to work hardest in Europe, I think. But they may also be satisfied by getting a specific market share, one that buys a lot of games and plays a lot of online - these may just spend a lot more than the 'casuals'.
 
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The problem with Microsoft is easy: They should advertise!!
I live in Portugal, and there's no advertising here. If you enter a video game store, what do you see? Tons of Playstations!. The XBox usually is in a hidden corner.
I think that in the other countries the same happens. Can you guess who sponsers the Champions League of Football?
 
* Anecdote: Two weeks ago a friend of mine came down to town to buy a high-end FullHD projector....

This experiment could have been accomplished with any console... this reflects on your friend's choice of games, and has nothing to do with the equipment used. The projector could have been just as easily shown off using Viva Pinata or other non-violent game.
 
Is there something equally violent to GeoW on any other console ? ,and it's a 360 flagship .
Also Viva pinata didn't sold (did it ?)
360 is clearly on the hardcore segment.Perhaps too much testosteron.
 
Is there something equally violent to GeoW on any other console ? ,and it's a 360 flagship .

:LOL:

Perhaps you should play the game. It's not as violent as many M rated titles. The wii probably has the most violent title in manhunt 2.

Also Viva pinata didn't sold (did it ?)

Something like 800k copies to date.

360 is clearly on the hardcore segment.Perhaps too much testosteron.

That certainly seems to be the perception of people that don't like the platform and have never touched it, but they love to spread the FUD.
 
Is there something equally violent to GeoW on any other console ?
Have you missed the whole console scene prior to GeoW? Apart from chain-sawing aliens, what was it doing uber-violent, and certainly to compare with the likes of GTA's callous baseball-batting civilians? GeoW is pretty moderate.

I would say though that XB360's flagship promoted titles aren't nicey-nicey. There's a lot of shooting and fighting and even the racing tends to be a bit boy-racer-dodgy-driving in PGR. Wii's image is clear focussed on the nicey-nicey titles which is the platform identity, into which the aggressive titles fit. I dunno about PS3 - I think it's associated with football and GT enough that even with RFoM and 3rd party aggressive titles, the platform identity isn't as aggressive for the average consumer as XB360. This is clearly me guessing and reading between some very broad lines! But my limited experience of XB360 ads has always been violence, from the games showcased in TV ads to the original Jump In campaign that had a lot of real-life people fighting and pretend-shooting each other. PS3's advertisement campaigns haven't been so focussed, being both 'infomercials' on the hardware and artsy-fartsy weirdness alongside the fighty-fighty ads. They've been much broader I think. Wii's campaign has been all cuddles and colours.

It may not be the availability of aggressive titles for the platforms as much as the representation of the platforms ids themselves that is making such a difference. How many cooperative, supportive, having-a-fun-time adverts has XB360 had since launch versus confrontational, combative ads?
Edit : What's the betting when GTA4 comes out MS do a big advertising push associating their console even more with violence?
 
Is there something equally violent to GeoW on any other console ? ,and it's a 360 flagship .
Also Viva pinata didn't sold (did it ?)
360 is clearly on the hardcore segment.Perhaps too much testosteron.

Since we're making generalizations, I thought Europeans love racing games? The 360 has tons of great racing games that would have shown off that equipment. My point stands, this "hardcore/testosteron(sp)" claim levelled at the console is nonsense.

If this is the common perception in Europe, then there has been a successful FUD campaign against this machine. This means MS must work to change the perception. The reality of its software lineup doesn't need to change, it's already very diversified.

It seems like there has been a love-in for the PS3's software diversity on this board in recent months (not an accusation, just an observation). If the PS3's lineup can be called diverse, then by any similar list of criteria, the 360's is even more diverse. Surely most people on this forum can agree with this, regardless of the continent they live on.
 
If this is the common perception in Europe, then there has been a successful FUD campaign against this machine.
As my post above, I don't think it's FUD but misrepresentation. MS have courted the hardcore gamer with their advertising strategies. And to be fair, it's kinda worked. They got good initial sales and very good software tie-in which makes for a profitable system. If XB360 has the diversity to offer something for everyone include the cuddly-friendly games lots of people like, its MS to blame for not communicating that message, and not everyone else's fault for suppressing that message with lies and misrepresentation. The expectation of diversity from PS3 comes from previous efforts and known franchises, so Sony don't need to do as much work to establish their console as a source for varied entertainments. In that same vein, how diverse was XB's lineup and what legacy reputation has it left for it's sibling to follow?
 
Read this article about how Microsoft has just announced how they will try to make inroads in the Japanese market.
http://digital.asiaone.com/Digital/News/Story/A1Story20080205-48445.html
Microsoft will put the Xbox 360 Arcade on sale March 6 at a price of 27,800 yen (260 dollars), less than the 34,800 yen for the current machine.

Unlike the standard Xbox 360, the Arcade version has no hard drive. It comes with games -- mostly family-friendly ones appealing to casual gamers -- with other games downloadable from the Internet.
 
:LOL:

Perhaps you should play the game. It's not as violent as many M rated titles. The wii probably has the most violent title in manhunt 2.


Something like 800k copies to date.


That certainly seems to be the perception of people that don't like the platform and have never touched it, but they love to spread the FUD.

Paranoid irrationals can't make up for an explanation or does europe hates US 's freedom too ? :rolleyes:


I finished GeoW,thanks.But you're right ,there is manhunt ,still , the chainsaw stuff +gritty design of Geow is uber violent stuff anyway.
 
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