They should have the Swiss make it - no-one dislikes the Swiss
No? I'd reckon the Jews have little reason to feel 'neutral' about them ...
How can MS do better in Europe?
- Thread starter Johnny Awesome
- Start date
No? I'd reckon the Jews have little reason to feel 'neutral' about them ...
They should have the Swiss make it - no-one dislikes the Swiss
Thats actually not a bad idea
Seriously though, as always I just call it as I see it. And I've seen enough over the years that I can't help but think being American made is a factor. It's so many little things, like seeing two identical products, picking one up to buy, and hearing someone say "but that one is American". Or, between my wife and I we can understand 5 different languages. That can be quite enlightening especially when hearing what people will say to each other in their native tongue after just having served an American tourist. Plus, all kinds of stories would filter back from friends who had just visited Europe, like a good friend of mine who went to a doctor in Germany that publicly admitted he would refuse to see Americans. Anyways, it goes on and on, but after hearing stuff like that for years, how can I not think being American made is a factor? It's not the only reason I'm sure, but I think it does factor in.I definitely think the Microsoft brand is a factor as well. In fact, I'd say that Microsoft knows it as well. Look at the PS3 and it's controller, it's got the Sony brand nice and visible. Look at the 360 and its controller. Where is the brand name? Normally a product maker will make sure their name is prominent someplace, but Microsoft has gone the opposite route. It's almost like they have made an effort to hide their name and make it as inconspicuous as possible. Plus, everyone knows at least one person that purposely will not buy anything with the Microsoft name on it.
For the interface, well I guess it's just personal taste. XMB looks like an interface for low power devices. It's plain and won't stress the hardware, and hence won't use much power. I admit I like some pizazz in an interface. XMB works, but its boring and bland.
As for your ideas on Europeans, well I guess ... Europe is a big place. Over here, this really isn't a factor. There is some Microsoft hate, sure, but in general people buy stuff for what they are worth, and sometimes, yes, previous experience counts. If you've been happy with Sony, or the Playstation brand, then yes, you'll be more inclined to go that way again. But a lot of people I talk to buy the PS3 partly for BluRay, well, then that has little to do with brand recognition.
You make me think of the (excellent) movie Barcelona by the way.
XMB is the exact opposite for me. I like the fluent day and night cycle in it's default theme, with the nice undulating background always transparantly available, and I really don't understand how you can call the animated icons and automatic sounds and backgrounds for the games and demos boring and bland. There is nothing exciting about the Dashboard, right up to and including being totally non-scalable to any kind of resolution or even taking widescreen into account, the badly scaled lo resolution bitmaps popping up excruciatingly slowly, or the ugly font.
Looks are a matter of taste, but all the Dashboard has going for it imho is some nice bright colors that look pretty on modern tvs. When it comes to 'pizazz' and such though, well, unless the pizzaz comes from colors alone, I really don't follow ... But complaining that the XMB doesn't stress the hardware (and the Dashboard does??), that's way beyond me.
You make me think of the (excellent) movie Barcelona by the way.
XMB is the exact opposite for me. I like the fluent day and night cycle in it's default theme, with the nice undulating background always transparantly available, and I really don't understand how you can call the animated icons and automatic sounds and backgrounds for the games and demos boring and bland. There is nothing exciting about the Dashboard, right up to and including being totally non-scalable to any kind of resolution or even taking widescreen into account, the badly scaled lo resolution bitmaps popping up excruciatingly slowly, or the ugly font.
Looks are a matter of taste, but all the Dashboard has going for it imho is some nice bright colors that look pretty on modern tvs. When it comes to 'pizazz' and such though, well, unless the pizzaz comes from colors alone, I really don't follow ... But complaining that the XMB doesn't stress the hardware (and the Dashboard does??), that's way beyond me.
Thats actually not a bad idea
I definitely think the Microsoft brand is a factor as well. In fact, I'd say that Microsoft knows it as well. Look at the PS3 and it's controller, it's got the Sony brand nice and visible. Look at the 360 and its controller. Where is the brand name? Normally a product maker will make sure their name is prominent someplace, but Microsoft has gone the opposite route. It's almost like they have made an effort to hide their name and make it as inconspicuous as possible. Plus, everyone knows at least one person that purposely will not buy anything with the Microsoft name on it.
For the interface, well I guess it's just personal taste. XMB looks like an interface for low power devices. It's plain and won't stress the hardware, and hence won't use much power. I admit I like some pizazz in an interface. XMB works, but its boring and bland.
exactly, there is both anti American hate and MS hate .... outside of NPD-land, I think that's exactly where the majority of 360's shortcomings lie
DuckThor Evil
Legend
XMB in my opinion is rather sleek looking and somehow soothing, but once you get to the store things change... Then it feels like you load up slow web browser with a very low end PC. Xbox UI offers much more seamless and smoother experience in that scenario.
I haven't seen the Dashboard or PS3 in content downloads so can't say there. What I have seen, sliding between the numerous blades, and comparing that to XMB with it's thumbnails, audio-clips, mellow background that changes per title, XMB is both a lot swisher and more hardware demanding. Not that I see hardware demanding as a plus for a UI! If the whole thing were realtime-raytraced, would that make it any better? Ideally it ought to be swish and consume as few resources leaving more for the real work of the machine.
If PS3's download service is like a slow browser on a low-end PC (which by accounts it is!) then IMO the Blades are similar to a rather simple webpage with GIFs and text, whereas XMB is much more a Flash website sharing much in common with the latest trends in UIs of minimalist spaced icons sliding around, a la iPhone and other clones. It'd be interesting to get more opinions on the different UIs (haven't we had this thread before?) to see if there are regional differences and if Sony have a UI that has international appeal in a way XB360 doesn't, or if this differences in taste are cross-cultural.
If PS3's download service is like a slow browser on a low-end PC (which by accounts it is!) then IMO the Blades are similar to a rather simple webpage with GIFs and text, whereas XMB is much more a Flash website sharing much in common with the latest trends in UIs of minimalist spaced icons sliding around, a la iPhone and other clones. It'd be interesting to get more opinions on the different UIs (haven't we had this thread before?) to see if there are regional differences and if Sony have a UI that has international appeal in a way XB360 doesn't, or if this differences in taste are cross-cultural.
For information MS release in France TV advertising for DMC4, on M6 (a National TV) before NCIS …
They made the same before Christmas with 2 Ms spots before, 2 Ms spot after (a show PES and PGR).
And personally I don't like the look & feel of the XMB… is pseudo minimalist style give me a real feeling of "confusion" or feel for me like a RSS screensaver…
But is my taste.
They made the same before Christmas with 2 Ms spots before, 2 Ms spot after (a show PES and PGR).
And personally I don't like the look & feel of the XMB… is pseudo minimalist style give me a real feeling of "confusion" or feel for me like a RSS screensaver…
But is my taste.
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Actually I do wonder how much this is still true for everyone. The Browser has become faster every firmware update, and the latest edition that came with the child-lock option and so on, is really rather fast. There's little difference anymore between our fast PC machines and the Browser, and that is equally reflected when using the store ... Certainly for me, I have more lag in the Dashboard these days than vice versa. Am I the only one?
Sure, makes sense to me. But in this case I don't think 360 is losing in Europe because of games. I did a google search for the best selling games in Europe for 2007 and found this:
http://www.niwifi.net/2008/01/30/europe-top-50-best-selling-games-of-2007/
Here's the top 20 list with only 360/ps3 stuff in it:
1. FIFA 08 (Electronic Arts)
3. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Activision)
4. Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (Konami)
6. Halo 3 (Microsoft)
7. The Simpsons Game (Electronic Arts)
9. Assassin’s Creed (Ubisoft)
10. WWE Smackdown Vs Raw 2008 (THQ)
11. Need for Speed: Prostreet (Electronic Arts)
14. Spider-Man 3 (Activision)
15. Need for Speed: Carbon (Electronic Arts)
16. Pro Evolution Soccer 6 (Konami)
18. FIFA ‘07 (Electronic Arts)
19. Forza Motorsport 2 (Microsoft)
20. The Sims 2: Pets (Electronic Arts)
Now, I haven't done an in depth search on all of the above titles. But from what I recall, don't all the soccer games run better on the 360? Doesn't assasins creed run better on 360? Isn't Halo 3 (an fps ironically in the top 10 europe list) only available on 360? Don't the racing games on that list run better on 360, or are only available on 360? It would seem for games, Europeans should prefer the 360 since it has the better versions of the games they seem to buy, as well as having options that are only available on 360.
But, PS3 is still selling more. That makes me doubt it's because 360's games library is lacking. I mean, just look at the top 20 list, 360 has them totally covered. It's even more odd because they can play the games they want for cheaper on 360, both due to cheaper console price, and, from what I read on this forum, the same game sometimes being cheaper on 360.
So if it's not the games, and it's not price, then what is it? Is it all because of RROD?
2 spus are working on the background wave and it's FP16 for gradient quality.
As for anti US hate , i don't buy it for a second as a significative argument.Anti MS ,probably more ,but not that much since every body is probably running windows and watching a lot of US movies and shows.
and it's FP16 for gradient quality.As for anti US hate , i don't buy it for a second as a significative argument.Anti MS ,probably more ,but not that much since every body is probably running windows and watching a lot of US movies and shows.
It is interesting to note that the first three pages of this thread is pretty much about the 360 vs. the PS3, when actually the Wii is outclassing them both in Europe. This despite that the Wii is rarely on display since shop owners are afraid to loose the wireless controls.
I'll submit that this http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10614 is a factor.
The xbox is associated and promoted with gory, violent games. Which in fact aren't that popular in the market as a whole, and even less so outside the USA. If it tried to bring something else to the table rather than "even more realistic violence", it might have a wider appeal. It is also interesting to note that its wide selection of gory titles is considered its prime appeal on these message boards.
I'll submit that this http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10614 is a factor.
The xbox is associated and promoted with gory, violent games. Which in fact aren't that popular in the market as a whole, and even less so outside the USA. If it tried to bring something else to the table rather than "even more realistic violence", it might have a wider appeal. It is also interesting to note that its wide selection of gory titles is considered its prime appeal on these message boards.
I think you may have misinterpreted that article. It's not showing the sold amount, just the % of all games produced. I'll bet M games sell better than that.
That point has been raised before, but sales figures suggest otherwise. Europe doesn't shun those 18/M games but buys into them just the same. European cinema can be extremely graphic/blunt, so why think game tastes would be much different?
As was pointed out, I may have overinterpreted the article.
I still believe profile is an issue - when you look at the top 50 sales chart, only three of the top 20 are violent games. Yet when I see the 360 promoted, it is typically using Halo or Gears of War (or less frequently Call of Duty or similar a title).
Who does this appeal to?
There is a market for these titles to be sure, but sales statistics actually bear out the statistics that I linked to. The 360 really is marketed as "now with even more realistic violence" and my contention is that this is rejected by the majority of the market.
The success of the Wii, bitterly ignored on these boards for more than one reason, can be viewed in this perspective as well - it markets value and enjoyment that isn't derived from killing.
The 360 has played its major cards already - it was first to market and got all the early adopters and the marketshare lead, and enjoyed (still enjoys?) a larger number of titles. But it is loosing marketshare ground, and its strongest cards are already played. The PS3 is coming down in price and offers BR playback, something that is going to have an impact now that the format wars are basically over. The Wii that outsells both the others is the undisputed volume leader by now, and will attract a wider selection of titles on the strength of its installed base on top of the factors that made it the strongest seller as it is.
The market share of the 360 will decline in Europe, and most likely in the USA as well. Microsoft can try to change the marketing and the pricing, and this could have some impact, but from now on out, it really doesn't have any compelling advantages any more, whereas the other two do. It is not a question of doing better anymore, it's a question of trying to reduce the downward slope.
As pointed out, that is the UK list, the European country where the 360 is (by far) the most successful. It's a big market, so it's not insignificant, but:
1. The PS3 was released in March 2007! The 360 15 months earlier
2. At a high pricepoint. The price parity with the 360 was achieved much more recently. Significant enough numbers of PS3 are only just coming about to make PS3 software register on its own, and only really by the end of 2007.
This of course makes single platform titles stand out much less.
That is not to say by the way that the Fifa, CoD and AC don't matter. Some of these games are true next-gen sellers, but the difference between the 360 and the PS3 version, insomuch as everyone even being aware of them (very few people actually read message boards, I'm noticing), they're not annoying enough to offset brand loyalty and other PS3 advantages.
Also worth mentioning is that the issues have been smaller here than in the US I think. Certainly some people will have picked up on that some parts of these games running better on the 360. European games haven't been as bad as in the US though with Madden - PES6 had online troubles and slowdown but the latter mostly just when played in SD mode, FIFA08 looks great and is a smooth 60fps on PS3, and only has slower replays (which look crap on both, imho), AC had some bugs but they were fixed, and has a slight bit of slowdown compared to the 360 version, but not to the point that anyone I know who played the game (two colleagues) have even mentioned it (and they played every inch of the game, they loved it).
And in the meantime, no Live fee required for either FIFA or CoD, which I personally think is a bigger issue here than in the US also, simply because with people playing online games less often, the value is lower.
Also, if you take the all-formats chart in many European countries, you'll see a lot of Singstar (check European sales figure threads on Neogaf for instance). By filtering the list to 360/PS3, these disappear, both because the PS3 on average in 2007 had a small userbase (and buying a lot of games only comes the second year, typically, as the games budget goes more towards the hardware in the first), and because Singstar was only just released in December, and because we're looking at the UK, all that conspires to hide it as a factor.
In the meantime, all the 60GB units (still a fair number) can play PS2 Singstar just fine, hardware included, and personally, I have bought 3 Buzz titles since I bought my PS3, and have all played them on the PS3. Violent games are a factor, but not as big as some think. It's just a difference that is there. I'm the biggest FPS fan in my office out of seven who play games, and I'm not a big FPS fan. Can you imagine that in the US? I'm more than willing to give that the EU isn't as different from the US as some people make it out to be - everyone here loves the Die Hard and Lethal Weapon series for instance, and kids here loved Arnold in his various action hits as much as the next guy (well the first three anyway)
But at the same time much fewer people here will know someone who is on active military duty in Iraq, has lost someone there, and so on. Instead, they will know people who remember WWII and who will tell them how bad war really is. Guns aren't a part of our culture as much, and although that doesn't mean we don't think they're exciting in movies, or cool in games (they are interesting as a game mechanic after all), there is a difference. It's just that the differences pale in comparison with the differences in tastes in, say, some Asian countries.
When it comes down to it though, it all comes down to value. And in Europe, the 360 simply isn't as good a value proposition as it is in the US, for various reasons, among which Sony catering better to the European market (as in releasing specific games, multi-language support, etc.), and certainly Microsoft catering better to the US market (as in releasing specific games, offering much broader TV services, etc.). Combine this with different perceptions of acceptable pricing and value of the hardware (the PS2 was never cheap here either, so the price didn't offend people as much as the 299 spoilt US audience, and the value of the Euro vs the Dollar is the complete reverse compared to back then), DVD having been of more value in the EU in the PS2 than in the US where they were 1-2 years ahead, online being less important in general (it's coming, but it was a big gap iin the last generation), and (partly because of the latter) the Xbox having been more successful in the US than the EU, and you have a good and nuanced picture of why the 360 has a tougher time against the PS3 in the US.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
GTA popularity in Europe basically kills the idea that Europeans don't like ultra violence. It's bullshit IMO.
X360 Branding seems to be the biggest issue from those raised so far.
X360 Branding seems to be the biggest issue from those raised so far.
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