HardOCP's position on the 3DMark2003/Nvidia issue

Ok, I think I can definitively eliminate the "intentional 3DMark bugging" from the equation.

There is no way by which 3D Mark could "expose" nVidia, (assuming they plant the bug), without destroying their company. Because the very nature of the bug being "exposed" would mean that 3D Mark becomes exposed. If this were to happen, they are out of business, and everyone working there is out of a job. No matter how damaging this is to nvidia, it will never put them out of business. So if futuremark inserted the bug, they would have to keep quiet about it, so as not to expose themselves. And then the only thing you are doing is ensuring that nvidia gets higher benchmark scores than normal, which would seem counter-productive if you hate them.
 
RussSchultz said:
I didn't say that.

So you're concerned with personal attacks that make assumptions at other journalists' motivations? That's not like you, Russ, or am I just not getting the angle you're taking here?

Its funny how last year with the quack thing, the tables were polar opposites. ATI supporters were shocked at who had leaked the information and called it unprofessional and suggested Kyle had an axe to grind, and that NVIDIA was behind the expose.

Actually, the whole 3d market is funny as hell to watch. The major players fight their proxy wars through websites by leaking information. Previews have become horribly politicized; EVERYTHING is a plot one way or another. Peoples opinions on actions flip/flop based on who's done what. And everybody gets so worked up over it, and most of the debate boils down to ad hominem attacks.

Again, irrelevent. And I don't think I ever once got involved in the Quack issue. And I don't consider myself involved in this. But I do agree with you that the fip/flop is very noticeable and very hypocritical. I'd seen this go on since '97/'98 and you know what? It's not going to stop.

I just think it's wrong for Kyle to suggest what he has. Salvatore was obviously working on this article last week, quite possibly prior to learning that ET wouldn't get a copy of Doom 3 from Nvidia. It's a dirty game easily played:

Fact 1) Kyle is personal friends with Brian Burke

Fact 2) Brian Burke works at Nvidia

Fact 3) 1 day after ET publishes a critical article on Nvidia's drivers, Kyle posts a rebuttal that questions ET's motivations for writing the article
 
RussSchultz said:
WaltC, for clarification, you're stating that the Extremetech article did not come out 2 days after the Doom3 article posted on HardOCP? You're completely confused about what was stated by Kyle.


And please people, before you string me up as some sort of Kyle effigy. I'm not asserting anything--he is! Though, from my perspective, every fact he has presented is true (and nobody has shown they are not). His opinion is his own, and not mine. I haven't even suggested whether I think NVIDIA is cheating or not. You've lumped me into that category because I'm saying the facts presented are tue.

I don't want to string you up, Russ...;)

Look, if I say the "sky is blue sometimes" that is also a fact--but it has nothing to do with this issue. Kyle's "fact" as to the chronological proximity of the Doom III demo is about as relevant a fact as saying the sky is blue. The ET article was in response to the Detonator drivers nVidia released in close chronological proximity to the ET Detonator expose'--that seems to me to be the only salient "fact" concerning this issue. Had there been no such Detonator release the ET article would not have been written regardless of which sites were chosen by nVidia for the dubious honor of running this Doom III demo. Right?
 
OK here is my take on it.


1. nVidia is cheating their butts off
2. Funny how ATi's cards render the scene correctly no matter WHAT the flight path is
3. the way www.hardocp.com stated their opinion definately does the following

a. calls into question the legitamacy of the extremetech article.
b. question their motives.
c. shows that at least Kyle (the owner and operator) favors nVidia
d. definately tries to make them look bad HOWEVER it definately has backfired once you actually read the article.

4. want to talk about cheats that Ati has done there is only 1 the quack.exe thing and it was definately resolved in a later revision of the driver without a performance penalty.

way back in the mid 90's when 2d accelleration was just starting to become popular there was a company that cheated in ZDavis benchmark by placing the test routines in the video card BIOS and they were scoring 300% higher scores.... that company (I forgeot their name but people like WaltC know who i am talking about) is no longer in business......same thing can definately happen to nVidia. Remember when S3 cheated with the Savage 2000 (hardware flaws) it ultimately cost their parent company (Sonic Blue) to file for bankruptsy. YOU NEVER WIN WHEN YOU CHEAT......
 
do you remember who got pissed because matrox didnt send them a card ??? :) who attacked the parphelia week after week after that. It's not because they did that way than ET acts the same way
 
My opinion

Open source benchmarks can be exploited in the same way.

It isn't them being open source that would address this, it is if an Open Source benchmark would have its source material and camera paths varied and adapted, but this same avenue (increasing variance) of addressing this issue can be accomplished for 3dmark 03 or another closed source benchmark as well (and has in this case).

Open source benchmarks have other advantages to, like assuring shader code can be swapped freely and independently analyzed, but despite that IHVs could still custom replace specific common shader code...the flaw isn't the code, but simply the code being used often (being Open Source doesn't magically prevent that).

Stating "Open Source" as a solution to this issue is a red herring, fostered by nVidia's smear campaign against 3dmark 03. (Smear campaign is not just an emotionally laden term, it is based on the record of the steps nVidia has taken).

Open source benchmarks have disadvantages too: having the source code available facilitates case specific optimization.

Please consider...you have an open source benchmark, distributed with shader files and source material:

You change the source material and shader files, and performance changes significantly for one card.
Not every reviewer is going to custom modify the shader files uniquely, and try new source material (jump the rail), but some will and then share the info (as happened with 3dmark03, btw).
Now to answer the questions: Was it cheating? Maybe, but maybe it was just an optimization...with the amount of variance allowed, this is not necassarily clear, and depends on the person making the variance. It is a good thing the Open Source benchmark allowed you to vary things to explore the issue, anyways...but don't let that distract you from the fact that 3dmark 03 obviously already has sufficient variance to expose this issue, and it, or future 3dmarks, could add more.
The difference for closed source from Open Source (atleast to the way that Open Source can uniquely do this) is that it narrows down access to variance (bad, but changeable) and variance possibilities (good because it is easier and more reviewers are capable of doing it, and therefore likely to make decisions for doing so, bad because it makes cheating easier...but that last bad point is also chanageable).

You change the source code.
This is unique to Open Source, but it has unique hurdles...to manifest it, you have to change the source code in a way that defeats the ways IHVs have already developed to make engine specific recognition between versions changes, in which case what you are doing is making a new benchmark.
The good thing that will always be offered by Open Source is that it makes it much easier to make this new benchmark than making one from scratch...but you didn't get this benefit from the benchmark being Open Source, you got it from someone going through the effort of making a new benchmark, and then that benchmark actually being used for reviews. More accessible variance controls (of sufficient sophistication) actually achieves this end better, because then more people are able to check for themselves.

What is desirable about Open Source benchmarking is as an addition to closed source and (to some degree) more narrowly defined benchmarking...the advantages of the open source benchmarking will not be lost in this arrangement, but the advantages that a specific closed source benchmark might offer (keep in mind that the allegations of 3dmark's unsuitability is an nVidia proposition) will be retained.

An Open Source benchmark doesn't offer significant advantages merely by being Open Source...it first has to offer the toolset and engineering effort to succeed as a benchmark. Or, well, it does if you are replacing a closed source benchmark....otherwise, you can spend time covering the things the closed source benchmark doesn't do, or doing them a different way for contrast.

Don't forget that nVidia's attack on 3dmark 03 would have stated the same things if it was Open Source. The difference is that it would have been easier for them to cheat, and then, depending on the above outlined effort by people (that 3dmark 03 also allowed), less likely for them to get away with it. Since they didn't get away with it, and specifically because of the functionality 3dmark 03 already offers, I propose that the focus shouldn't be on replacing 3dmark 03, but making it harder for them to get away with it in the future by making the tools used to expose this available to a wider selection of people (did B3D pay a bunch of money to become a beta member, or was that perhaps a direct first step to accomplish this? I think the latter currently), increasing the usability of offering this variance, and increasing the range of variance allowed.

Oh, and having more benchmarks in addition...an Open Source one seems like a good idea.
 
boobs said:
...Do you agree that Nvidia would like to see 3dMark cease to exist as a benchmark and a company? Yes/No? Does that not make Nvidia 3dMark's enemy? Yes/No?

Between Nvidia cheating and 3DMark sabotage, which is more likely? I'd say Nvidia cheating, but that doesn't affect the validity of the second being a
possibility.

Just pointing out that at this point, we don't quite know what a lot of people seem to think we know. ;)


Boobs...3DMark 03 was out in final form long before nVidia's most recent Detonator release, so how could 3D Mark have *possibly* sabotaged an upcoming Detonator release? *chuckle* Come on....;) For more reasons than I can count you are describing a patent impossibility.

Secondly--what's in 3DMark that nVidia should oppose? You tell me. Could it be nVidia's in opposition to anything which supports a universal D3d API, unless nVidia formulates the standards for it? I can think of no other reasonable answer as to nVidia's opposition to 3DMark 03. The D3d API, indeed as was first the intention of the OpenGL API under windows, was designed to level the playing field for all comers from a software perspective. 3DMark 03 is a DX9 benchmark primarily. nVidia has plainly stated it opposes 3DMark 03 because it does not "believe" it is an accurate barometer of the way 3D software ought to be written in the future. If that's not a declaration of a desire to be free of the API ultimately I don't know what would be.

If nVidia's reasoning was valid here, and there were real reasons to abandon DX9 because it is plainly going in the wrong direction, why is it that ATi has no problems with DX9? Why is it that ATi is not threatened by a DX9 benchmark like 3DMark 03?

Therefore, it appears to me that nVidia's primary objection to 3DMark 03 is that it is proscribed by an API standard which nVidia would like to unravel. And so nVidia opposes it while ATi does not. It is, more or less, part of a naked power play which I think nVidia will lose.
 
Tell me what is the impression that you get from the opening of his article

HardOCP.com Kyle opening statement

3DMark Invalid?
Two days after Extremetech was not given the opportunity to benchmark DOOM3, they come out swinging heavy charges of NVIDIA intentionally inflating benchmark scores in 3DMark03. What is interesting here is that Extremetech uses tools not at NVIDIA's disposal to uncover the reason behind the score inflations. These tools are not "given" to NVIDIA anymore as the will not pay the tens of thousands of dollars required to be on the "beta program" for 3DMark "membership".

The reason I left off the rest is because I want you to read it like you had just came to the page and started reading...

definately looks like Kyle is slamming ET on this. If Kyle had any self respect he would have definately not stated his facts in this mannor as it definately gives the reader the impression that nVidia was being treated unfairly.
 
Hey Russ, let's talk about some more "facts".

Fact: Extreme tech has been working on this story for over a week.
Fact: Extreme tech contacted Nvidia about this story.
Fact: Extreme tech was not offered the same opportunity to do the Doom bench as [H].

So now Kyle can go on his website and say "Extreme tech was not allowed to bench Doom3 because they were about to uncover a story about Nvidia cheating on benchmarks. I'm not sure about the motive, but it could be because they were worried about them uncovering cheats in the Doom3 benches"

Though the conclusion is probably wrong, the Facts are all there. That's all you need right?

At least Doom and Hellbinder admit to their bias.
 
Russ, just a reminder: if you have a response to my post, please mention my name.

Regarding "flip/flop"s, I direct you to consider that differing IHVs are not the only issue in question, and that implying that this is the only determining factor is a disservice to the support for the viewpoint presented.
It can be applied to this end to viewpoints on either "side" of the issue....or not. I'd prefer if that was a last resort after atleast addressing why the associated viewpoint warrants being so dismissed.
 
I haven't read everyone's opinions in this thread but the following is based solely on my reading Kyle's thoughts on his front page.

1) B3D and ET knew about this about 7 or 8 days ago. I don't know when [H] got to know from NVIDIA that they have been the "chosen ones" to benchmark Doom3 but I would suspect later. This would throw out his "ET sulking about D3" theory.

2) I think Kyle has been extra appreciative towards NVIDIA for the arrangement re D3 benchmarking.

3) I think Kyle is pissed that [H] isn't a Futuremark beta member

4) I think Kyle is pissed about the fact that 3DMark03 is available to all now, as compared to D3

5) I think Kyle is pissed that [H] isn't a Futuremark beta member

6) I think Kyle should've addressed this in the proper and responsible manner by presenting his investigations into ET's "accusations" by writing a technical article. He didn't, and he probably will never be able to.

7) I think Kyle is pissed that [H] isn't a Futuremark beta member

8) I think Kyle got a lot of hits to his websites

9) I think Kyle is a great marketing guy for his website

The above aren't B3D's official stance nor Dave's. Just my cute thoughts on the matter. I had wanted to post my lown personal lengthy thoughts on this issue in a new "Rev at the Pulpit" post but it's late again!
 
Hellbinder, before you go half cocked on me:

Is it true that 2 days after the Doom articles this one came out? Yes or no. Its a fact that can be verified to be correct or not.

Is it true that the cheating information has been around, before the Doom article went public? I don't know, but its either yes or no. In other words a fact.

Is it true that the article accused NVIDIA of cheating? Yes or no. Its a fact that can be verified to be correct or not.

It it true that it was rumored Extremetech was upset? I don't know, but it is either yes or no. In other words: a fact.

Christ almighty. Don't shoot me because you can't tell the difference between a fact and an opinion.

Some of you guys are talking like Kyle is just inventing shit and opinionating out his ass.
:rolleyes:

Oh come on dude.. Im the one with the problem telling the difference between fact and opinion??? Please.. Pass me the Weed, im having a hard day today becuase of my late night viewing of Matrix Reloaded. I could use some of that stuff your smoking to liven up my morning ;)

If you'll notice im not even taking a stand against Nvidia on this (read my other posts on this subject). All i have said is lets take all the major benchmarks/Demos and thourghly test them for integrity accross the board thats all.

In this specific case, it is rather silly IMO to take what *are* unfounded *Rumors* and make them the Focal point instead of the imperical, verifiable, concrete evidence. Not what some guy at another Site *feels* about the issue.

I have also posted in another thread a request as to Who clued these guys in on this. Or do reviewers generally make a habbit out of flying around inside of demos..
 
Are you sure you didn't want to have

10) I think Kyle is pissed that [H] isn't a Futuremark beta member

as well? ;)
 
have also posted in another thread a request as to Who clued these guys in on this. Or do reviewers generally make a habbit out of flying around inside of demos..

I think unbiased benchmarks must be monitored, BETA members are the only ones that could see it..pretty obvious.
Look at the 3Dmark license agreement and comments about trying to be as impartial as possible and accurate.

If they are policing optimizations, no matter what IHV..this is good not bad.
We are seeing what the hardware can actually do.
 
on one side you have an average site with no technical merit bashing
one of the most informative and technical site i've been to

it seems almost illogical that hardocp got to benchmark doom3 and ET did not , but i would be afraid of ET if i were a graphic manufacturer too

bashing kyle would be tempting ,but i won't resort to that , i'll just stop visiting his site ( which i don't visit very often , most often it is for the funny bits )

and then he writes articles about how benchmarking should go , with invalid requests.. it is very hard to take anything he says seriously.

the only thing i would encourage people to do would take other benchmarks into accounts , many only look at the 3dmark2k3 scores , and as kyle put it " I think this just goes a bit further showing how worthless the 3DMark bulk score really is" then why is he so hellbent of tearing ET's a new ..... about this ?

i forgot what i wanted to say ..... i'll come back to it later

- overclocking is so 1999 -
 
oh right, i think this has been said before, but .. nvidia is actually doing a public service here ..

thanks for showing us that 3dmark is not a valid benchmarking tool by blatantly cheating


thank you

that's what i get from reading what kyle says ..

correct me if i'm wrong but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense
 
It can make sense, but only if NVidia released such a hack in a non-WHQL driver and announced that they did it to show that 3dMark can be cheated. However, to release it in a WHQL certified driver does much more to diminish their own credibility than FutureMark's.
 
Two days after Extremetech was not given the opportunity to benchmark DOOM3, they come out swinging heavy charges of NVIDIA intentionally inflating benchmark scores in 3DMark03. What is interesting here is that Extremetech uses tools not at NVIDIA's disposal to uncover the reason behind the score inflations. These tools are not "given" to NVIDIA anymore as the will not pay the tens of thousands of dollars required to be on the "beta program" for 3DMark "membership".

That opening statement is the shocker for me. Totally baseless, IMHO.

MuFu.
 
Back
Top