I'll let people read for themselves.
http://www.hardocp.com
I'm still at a bit of a loss for words.
Nite_Hawk
Edit: Fixed link
http://www.hardocp.com
I'm still at a bit of a loss for words.
Nite_Hawk
Edit: Fixed link
HardOCP's position on the 3DMark2003/Nvidia issue
- Thread starter Nite_Hawk
- Start date
Joe DeFuria
Legend
I'll just repost what I wrote in another thread where this was brought up..I do think this deserves a thread of it's own:
I just read the blurb on [H] and I am pretty sickened by it. Right from the first senetence:
So, right off the bat they make the implication that ExtremeTech has some sour grapes becuase they didn't get Doom3? So while H gets pats itself on the back and says ExtremeTech is unfounded in its opinion, it has no problem laying the foundation for their own perceived motives of ExtremeTech?
HARDOCP HAS SUNK TO A NEW LOW. I should say, that specifically KYLE has sunk to a new low, as he made the update.
I can play that game too, Kyle
"Two days after HardOCP was given favorable treatment by nVidia with a Doom3 benchmark, they refuse to acknlowedge or investigate legitimate data that shows improper behavior in an industry standard benchmark."
Rather than debunk ExtremeTech's research (which would be a proper retort), they resort to accusations of sour grapes motives.
Which, [even if that were a 100% true motivation, doesn't make the data any less legitimate.
And who didn't see this coming, as predicted by many already:
Hey Kyle, apparently, it's NOT so easy to manipulate it, and not get caught.
I just read the blurb on [H] and I am pretty sickened by it. Right from the first senetence:
So, right off the bat they make the implication that ExtremeTech has some sour grapes becuase they didn't get Doom3? So while H gets pats itself on the back and says ExtremeTech is unfounded in its opinion, it has no problem laying the foundation for their own perceived motives of ExtremeTech?
HARDOCP HAS SUNK TO A NEW LOW. I should say, that specifically KYLE has sunk to a new low, as he made the update.
I can play that game too, Kyle
"Two days after HardOCP was given favorable treatment by nVidia with a Doom3 benchmark, they refuse to acknlowedge or investigate legitimate data that shows improper behavior in an industry standard benchmark."
Rather than debunk ExtremeTech's research (which would be a proper retort), they resort to accusations of sour grapes motives.
Which, [even if that were a 100% true motivation, doesn't make the data any less legitimate.
And who didn't see this coming, as predicted by many already:
Hey Kyle, apparently, it's NOT so easy to manipulate it, and not get caught.
You kinda left that part out.
Nite_Hawk said:
Kyle has never been known for his intelligence, but I don’t believe he is this stupid he must realize that the likelihood this issue being a bug is non-existing.
I have to conclude that he knows that his attack on ET is baseless and that NVIDIA in fact are cheating. He is not only being dishonest, he is launching a baseless attack on a fellow hardware site it is pathetic and I can believe that he has dropped to such lows.
i dont know how someone can say it's good what nvidia did. Even in the best case for nvidia they did a bug in the driver .. it's not good for us the customer. In an average case, nvidia did this to prove than 3dmark is easy to cheat ... but why they hided this !!!! What is if beyond3d or extremetech never saw it .. I think nvidia did this to gain speed and if they got caugth .. they can say i just did this to prove 3dmark sux for a benchmark.
Richthofen
Newcomer
RussSchultz said:
Well i like that part and i would go even further on.
Drop that 3dmark crap because it is useless.
Do benchmarks with games because that is what i am interested in and not in getting 60 or 70fps in mother nature or whatever because i can't play that.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Richthofen said:
You know, you can't play a Doom3 TIMEDEMO, or any other TIMEDEMO either. Or do you just not understand the nature of this cheat, and why it's important to investigate it further?
I agree that this topic deserves its own thread.
I also have to say that I think DoomTrooper called Kyle correctly on the issue of nVidia bias. I personally had not been as convinced as Doom, and was willing to give Kyle the benefit of the doubt--until I read this. Kyle has put me squarely in DoomTrooper's camp with these remarks.
I am amazed frankly--shocked and awed, undoubtedly. I cannot believe an established webmaster would make these kinds of comments in public. This is the kind of sentiment that belongs at the bottom of a "first post" thread in some juvenile forum somwhere.
What on earth would make Kyle imagine that ExtremeTech, or any other reputable website, would be "upset" because nVidia did not seek to use it as a publicity tool and puppet to showcase a commercially paid-for demo the purpose of which was to simply cast a negative light on ATi's products to attempt (however vainly) to slow ATi's shipping-product market momentum while we sit and wait the 2-3 months for nv35-based products to ship and we sit and wait the 4-6 months for Doom III to ship?....???? Does anyone, *can* anyone, seriously believe that when DoomIII ships it will run at 10 fps on a 9800P? The premise is laughable--and transparent.
Does Kyle imagine he scored some sort of coup by allowing himself and his website to be used in such a fashion? Apparently he does, as difficult as that is for me to believe as I had credited him with much more sense on such topics. I had even expected him to do some thinking on the issue and come back with his own criticism of nVidia based on how this silly publicity event was handled. Man, did I figure that one wrong!
Well, the cat's out of the bag now, and there will be no putting it back. Look, Kyle, shouting about fanATIcs is no defense when speaking nVidiocy with a much louder voice. Your premise is preposterous. If you had some credible evidence to put forward to demonstrate why you thought ExtremeTech's presentation (now verified by both B3D and FutureMark) was in error, that would have been a horse of a different color. But you didn't.
Instead, you pat yourself on the back for being used as an ATi whipping boy by nVidia and criticize other sites which were smart enough, or lucky enough, to avoid being used in such an obvious fashion. Here's hoping Carmack will wake up and smell what's rotten in Denmark.
I also have to say that I think DoomTrooper called Kyle correctly on the issue of nVidia bias. I personally had not been as convinced as Doom, and was willing to give Kyle the benefit of the doubt--until I read this. Kyle has put me squarely in DoomTrooper's camp with these remarks.
I am amazed frankly--shocked and awed, undoubtedly. I cannot believe an established webmaster would make these kinds of comments in public. This is the kind of sentiment that belongs at the bottom of a "first post" thread in some juvenile forum somwhere.
What on earth would make Kyle imagine that ExtremeTech, or any other reputable website, would be "upset" because nVidia did not seek to use it as a publicity tool and puppet to showcase a commercially paid-for demo the purpose of which was to simply cast a negative light on ATi's products to attempt (however vainly) to slow ATi's shipping-product market momentum while we sit and wait the 2-3 months for nv35-based products to ship and we sit and wait the 4-6 months for Doom III to ship?....???? Does anyone, *can* anyone, seriously believe that when DoomIII ships it will run at 10 fps on a 9800P? The premise is laughable--and transparent.
Does Kyle imagine he scored some sort of coup by allowing himself and his website to be used in such a fashion? Apparently he does, as difficult as that is for me to believe as I had credited him with much more sense on such topics. I had even expected him to do some thinking on the issue and come back with his own criticism of nVidia based on how this silly publicity event was handled. Man, did I figure that one wrong!
Well, the cat's out of the bag now, and there will be no putting it back. Look, Kyle, shouting about fanATIcs is no defense when speaking nVidiocy with a much louder voice. Your premise is preposterous. If you had some credible evidence to put forward to demonstrate why you thought ExtremeTech's presentation (now verified by both B3D and FutureMark) was in error, that would have been a horse of a different color. But you didn't.
Instead, you pat yourself on the back for being used as an ATi whipping boy by nVidia and criticize other sites which were smart enough, or lucky enough, to avoid being used in such an obvious fashion. Here's hoping Carmack will wake up and smell what's rotten in Denmark.
Kyle's theory that Nvidia did this on purpose to show how easy it is to make 3DMark results worthless is without merit. If that was Nvidia's motive, they should have stated that from the get-go, and DEFINITELY not tried to pass this off as a bug. When these drivers were released, Nvidia offered them up as legit drivers promising massive performance gains. If they were only to show how pointless 3DMark is, they should have released them as "benchmark demonstration drivers" or something else, not as "production" drivers. No, there are only four options that are even possible here(not likely, just within the realm of theoretical possibility):
a) a bug in Nvidia's drivers
b) an intentional cheat in Nvidia's drivers
c) a bug in 3DM2K3
d) an intentional hack in 3DM2K3
I can't see either Beyond3D or Extremetech sticking their neck out if they even thought c) or d) was even possible, and Nvidia's gonna have a real hard time backing up their claim that it's b).
a) a bug in Nvidia's drivers
b) an intentional cheat in Nvidia's drivers
c) a bug in 3DM2K3
d) an intentional hack in 3DM2K3
I can't see either Beyond3D or Extremetech sticking their neck out if they even thought c) or d) was even possible, and Nvidia's gonna have a real hard time backing up their claim that it's b).
Nite_Hawk said:
Actually, it would seem to me he was stating facts.
2 days after the Doom3 preview, this article making accusations shows up--even though the information has been around for a week or so (apparantly). This is a verifiable to be true or false.
It is heavily rumored that ET was upset they weren't included in the list. This is verifiable to be true or false (though, I suppose what does 'heavily rumored' mean)
If those are facts, don't get yer panty's in a bunch that they're being reported. Admittedly editing by choosing the facts to present is a form of slanting the story.
To be fair he does offer a little bit of opinion:
"I have a feeling that Et has some motives of their own that might make a good story."
"Finding a driver bug is one thing, but concluding motive is another."
Though, quite honestly, everybody will already flock to their predisposed polarity, so it really doesn't matter what I think.
edit: move a paragraph to be more clear what I'm referring to.
Hellbinder
Banned
You know.. After reading it all and all the opinions at various sites.
It just seems like its to much work to care. Its all gotten so silly. It just sux that From one or two benchmark results hoards of people will start slamming one IHV over the other.
I'll take this Quick moment to point out that My issues with Nvidia have never been about their hardware. It has always been an issue of how unethical they are. No im not talking about this specific issue. Im talking about all the underhanded and Militaristic crap pull all the time. Thus i have a hard time supporting a company that does such things as the kyro Document etc. I usually end up on the oposite side they and their fanbase are. It is not that i think that ATi is the greatest thing since sliced cheese either. Its simply that since only recently virtually every website and fan forum was completely Dominated by Nvidias Gospel spreaders. Personally I am also a S3 fan from the days of old.. and I like PowerVR. If Imagine came out with a killer DX9 board today id get one in a second.
It just seems like its to much work to care. Its all gotten so silly. It just sux that From one or two benchmark results hoards of people will start slamming one IHV over the other.
I'll take this Quick moment to point out that My issues with Nvidia have never been about their hardware. It has always been an issue of how unethical they are. No im not talking about this specific issue. Im talking about all the underhanded and Militaristic crap pull all the time. Thus i have a hard time supporting a company that does such things as the kyro Document etc. I usually end up on the oposite side they and their fanbase are. It is not that i think that ATi is the greatest thing since sliced cheese either. Its simply that since only recently virtually every website and fan forum was completely Dominated by Nvidias Gospel spreaders. Personally I am also a S3 fan from the days of old.. and I like PowerVR. If Imagine came out with a killer DX9 board today id get one in a second.
As I was saying in the other thread, there are a host of possible scenarios, and it's not obvious that the evidence supports one over the other.
1. High level management at Nvidia sanctioned cheating on 3DMark in the manner suspected.
2. Lower level employee at Nvidia cheated on the benchmark without management's knowledge.
3. Driver bug that was not detected by NVidia QC.
4. Driver bug that was detected but passed along in the hopes that people wouldn't notice.
5. High level management at 3DMark detected Nvidia cards and purposely introduced errors to descredit Nvidia.
6. Lower level employees of 3DMark did what is described in item 6.
7. Bug in 3DMark that only affects Nvidia hardware or software.
How would one ever know which is the case unless the source code to 3DMark was opened? A better approach would be the benchmarking suite being discussed:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5853&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
1. High level management at Nvidia sanctioned cheating on 3DMark in the manner suspected.
2. Lower level employee at Nvidia cheated on the benchmark without management's knowledge.
3. Driver bug that was not detected by NVidia QC.
4. Driver bug that was detected but passed along in the hopes that people wouldn't notice.
5. High level management at 3DMark detected Nvidia cards and purposely introduced errors to descredit Nvidia.
6. Lower level employees of 3DMark did what is described in item 6.
7. Bug in 3DMark that only affects Nvidia hardware or software.
How would one ever know which is the case unless the source code to 3DMark was opened? A better approach would be the benchmarking suite being discussed:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5853&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
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