Halo: Reach

[Laa-Yosh]

Please do. We hear do much about the programming side, but not nearly enough about the artistic side (aside from what it costs to create assets).

I'm really sorry but I don't think that I'm capable of holding small art courses, not just because of my lack of formal education
Here's a good overall essay that's worth reading though:
http://www.androidblues.com/visualperception.html

About the asset creation process, well I'll try to make notes from time to time where it's appropriate, as it's a completely different thing.

 

[NRP]

@Laa-Yosh:
I didn't mean for you teach us "Art 101"; rather just (continue to) give more insight into the artistic side. I find your input very interesting. I've often wondered why one thing looks "good", while another similar thing is not at all visually appealing.

 

[AlNom]

Any thoughts on how people would change the gunplay? Halo 3 is the best balanced short-medium-long range shooting game I have played (right there with CS imo) and the melee and nades are really, really well done, especially in context of vehicles.

Well sprinting would change how the multiplayer would turn out... not so sure I care for that (all considering). Tactics were quite tense with the shield system and how it worked with the current weapon configs. Giving the player the ability to just scoot off around the corner to recharge shields... I dunno. It seems more frustrating for MP in Halo's case. That'd work for ODST because it's easier to take damage, and then you'd have CoD...

They could add sprint with a penalty. So your shields drain as you sprint, making it's use a bit more tactical.

Sort of makes sense from a story POV. And if you're out of shields you can't sprint... which would solve my issue in making a cheap escape. This'd be a lot more interesting for CTF for instance...

 

[Acert93]

Well sprinting would change how the multiplayer would turn out... not so sure I care for that (all considering). Tactics were quite tense with the shield system and how it worked with the current weapon configs. Giving the player the ability to just scoot off around the corner to recharge shields... I dunno. It seems more frustrating for MP in Halo's case. That'd work for ODST because it's easier to take damage, and then you'd have CoD...

You are aware that between Halo CE, Halo 2, and Halo 3 game balance was changed and adjustested, especially as changes to what the engine could/n't do evolved

Per Halo 3's balance, there are 24 MP maps, 10 FireFight maps, and a full campaign. There is also an ODST campaign that, while different, is another evolution back toward CE.

As the game appears set to not only have some squad interaction/dependancies (big change!) it looks like either classes or perks are coming. This could result in 4 or 5 distinct classes. What if the 'fleet footed' class had less shields to begin with?

Expecting a game to not evolve at all is the problem with die hard fans. No one is asking Reach to become CoD4 MW1 (even MW2 is different), but to survive the Halo brand cannot sit on a 2001 game design for 20 years either.

Sort of makes sense from a story POV. And if you're out of shields you can't sprint... which would solve my issue in making a cheap escape. This'd be a lot more interesting for CTF for instance...

And whatever doesn't fit canon can become canon

Halo has some strengths most FPS aren't even challenging in terms of design IMO, but world interactivity and movement is something Halo could evolve in. Customization (either by classes or user definable perks) would also bring a new dimension to the gameplay. I am actually curious to know if Bungie has plans for classes that are extremely effective through non-twitch non-direct-combatant roles. One thing I enjoyed about traditional BF games is that certain support roles (when played within their scope) were essential to really clobbering the other team. A good medic or engineer could make a team go far.

What do we know about the Reach silhouettes? One guy looks like your typical "strong man," another fleet of foot (sprint perk?), a sniper, an assassin (radar jammer perk?), and the Chief (intelligence/commanding?). It will be interesting to see how Bungie pulls this off.

Could be some BIG changes that Halo fans HATE.

 

[AlNom]

You are aware that between Halo CE, Halo 2, and Halo 3 game balance was changed and adjustested, especially as changes to what the engine could/n't do evolved

Yes I am, but would you say dual wielding was necessarily good? There is still a degree of similarity though... even with equipment, you couldn't always run away. I'd like to see them innovate rather than just slapping on a feature from another game. What Rob brought up seems like a good idea.

Expecting a game to not evolve at all is the problem with die hard fans. No one is asking Reach to become CoD4 MW1 (even MW2 is different), but to survive the Halo brand cannot sit on a 2001 game design for 20 years either.

Sure, but that's exactly the impression I get from all your rantings during the MP games.

 

[RobertR1]

Sort of makes sense from a story POV. And if you're out of shields you can't sprint... which would solve my issue in making a cheap escape. This'd be a lot more interesting for CTF for instance...

Exactly. In CTF like playlists, you'd have the option of getting to a tactical position quicker but risk the chance of losing a firefight since you would be showing up "exhausted" with your sheilds depleted.

 

[Acert93]

Sure, but that's exactly the impression I get from all your rantings during the MP games.

Nah, the ranting is feedback on design flaws. The difference is my criticism usually doesn't start and end with, "This is wrong because it isn't Halo" Bungie doesn't need to rip other franchises off, but it would be dumb not to at least consider where titles have explored. Games like CoD, Gears, BF, etc have added a lot to the MP arena and taught some lessons. I don't think Bungie is too agnostic to examining ideas and building a refined product from such (Halo CE is pretty much a collective netting of various concepts under one umbrella that was balanced--distanced weapons, weapon limites, nades, vehicles, etc were not new ideas). But I do think being tied down to one design concept (Halo CE and evolution) has lulled the fans into a sense of security that may make change... unpleasant.

I will admit I do find some of Halo 3's team based objective games very weak. They need to address those areas and look to CoD and BF for some ideas. Including a Customer Game browser would go a loooooong way to remedying that problem though. DM, TDM, Plant the Bomb, CTF, etc could use some ... modernization. And I don't mean by changing the flag into a diamond or something silly like that.

 

[Acert93]

Exactly. In CTF like playlists, you'd have the option of getting to a tactical position quicker but risk the chance of losing a firefight since you would be showing up "exhausted" with your sheilds depleted.

But where is the strategy in that? It isn't Halo 3, so it isn't strategy

The idea of utilizing suit energy (ahhh HL2 anyone???!) is a pretty solid concept.

 

[RobertR1]

Nah, the ranting is feedback on design flaws. The difference is my criticism usually doesn't start and end with, "This is wrong because it isn't Halo" Bungie doesn't need to rip other franchises off, but it would be dumb not to at least consider where titles have explored. Games like CoD, Gears, BF, etc have added a lot to the MP arena and taught some lessons. I don't think Bungie is too agnostic to examining ideas and building a refined product from such (Halo CE is pretty much a collective netting of various concepts under one umbrella that was balanced--distanced weapons, weapon limites, nades, vehicles, etc were not new ideas). But I do think being tied down to one design concept (Halo CE and evolution) has lulled the fans into a sense of security that may make change... unpleasant.

I will admit I do find some of Halo 3's team based objective games very weak. They need to address those areas and look to CoD and BF for some ideas. Including a Customer Game browser would go a loooooong way to remedying that problem though. DM, TDM, Plant the Bomb, CTF, etc could use some ... modernization. And I don't mean by changing the flag into a diamond or something silly like that.

Expanding the objective games means nothing if the maps are not balanced well for the type of gameplay.

Tacking on objective for the sake of checklists is exactly how you get the community annoyed. The current MP play for Halo3 suit the playlists well for the most part. Which is still much better than other games with various objectives but poor balance that has people doing vote skips in a hurry.

CS and BF2 should be great examples of such. Good options but poor balance. Thus servers are littered with Dust 2, office, Aztec, Strike at Karkand and Jalalabad, while other maps get avoided like a plague. Having played both games for hundreds of horus, I can see why.

I'm all for bungie or anyone else adding game type but more often than not, it doesn't work out too well. What they have now is pretty impressive for the most part. I can't recall going "sigh..." when certain maps come up as I often do with even CoD.

 

[Acert93]

Per CS, the game is balanced. Are all the maps? No. But dare I say Halo has some reaaaaal stinkers as well. Never played a MP game where every map was good-to-great. I would say half of Halo's maps are sub-good IMO.

We obviously part ways when it comes to "sigh" irt various Halo maps. Halo 3 has some pretty craptastic maps I hope to neeeever see again. The "Camping Elevator" one and the lame remake of Sidewinder to start with.

As for objective play, yes, maps would need to be designed with that as a consideration. I am not calling for an abandonment of Slayer, Team Slayer, CTF, Assault, or King of the Hill. But don't you think a quality, innovative new mode would be nice to add to the mix? You know, maybe something that utilizes the potential squad/classes? Or if the game is bigger/broader scope, larger battlefields in orientation?

I guess I am not looking for yet another expansion (ODST) to the 4th in a series of the nearly exact same gameplay, top-to-bottom. Not argueing to jettison everything or removing PROVEN modes, but some evolution wouldn't be bad. So keep the good stuff people like, but don't be afraid to trying some new stuff.

Seeing how big CoD has gotten, if I were Bungie I wouldn't bet on the id Software path and expect the name alone and minor franchise tweaks to keep you at the top forever. At some point you realize the entire industry has passed you buy... and you are left with Xbox 1 animations and humanoid designs Doesn't make for a horrible game but at some point someone else will "get it right".

Which is one of the reasons Bungie doesn't want to be exclusively tied to one franchise and one game design. From Bungie's perspective letting MS take the Halo brand isn't all bad--let MS make Halo 10: Last decades leftovers warmed over. Bungie knows pretty well if they changed Halo significantly core fans would kill them. So kill 2 birds with one stone. Freedom from MS, and Freedom from Halo.

And now they get to cash in!

 

[(((interference)))]

It already looks cleaner than Halo 3 and I love the weapon detail and lighting

Some of the pics remind me of Perfect Dark Zero for some reason:

 

[(((interference)))]

Per CS, the game is balanced. Are all the maps? No. But dare I say Halo has some reaaaaal stinkers as well. Never played a MP game where every map was good-to-great. I would say half of Halo's maps are sub-good IMO.

We obviously part ways when it comes to "sigh" irt various Halo maps. Halo 3 has some pretty craptastic maps I hope to neeeever see again. The "Camping Elevator" one and the lame remake of Sidewinder to start with.

As for objective play, yes, maps would need to be designed with that as a consideration. I am not calling for an abandonment of Slayer, Team Slayer, CTF, Assault, or King of the Hill. But don't you think a quality, innovative new mode would be nice to add to the mix? You know, maybe something that utilizes the potential squad/classes? Or if the game is bigger/broader scope, larger battlefields in orientation?

I guess I am not looking for yet another expansion (ODST) to the 4th in a series of the nearly exact same gameplay, top-to-bottom. Not argueing to jettison everything or removing PROVEN modes, but some evolution wouldn't be bad. So keep the good stuff people like, but don't be afraid to trying some new stuff.

Seeing how big CoD has gotten, if I were Bungie I wouldn't bet on the id Software path and expect the name alone and minor franchise tweaks to keep you at the top forever. At some point you realize the entire industry has passed you buy... and you are left with Xbox 1 animations and humanoid designs Doesn't make for a horrible game but at some point someone else will "get it right".

Which is one of the reasons Bungie doesn't want to be exclusively tied to one franchise and one game design. From Bungie's perspective letting MS take the Halo brand isn't all bad--let MS make Halo 10: Last decades leftovers warmed over. Bungie knows pretty well if they changed Halo significantly core fans would kill them. So kill 2 birds with one stone. Freedom from MS, and Freedom from Halo.

And now they get to cash in!

I don't mind if they 'evolve' the MP gameplay quite a bit from Halo 3. I'll just keep my copy of Halo 3 if I prefer the traditional MP.

Though it would be great if they had Halo 3 and Halo Reach modes for the MP, so we could play Halo 3 MP on Reach maps with the new graphics engine :smile:

 

[Aeoniss]

It's good to see Bungie getting back on their feet within the technical arena.

I mean in many, many ways (as a gamer and Halo fan) H3 was just a total let down.

 

[ShadowWolf64]

It's good to see Bungie getting back on their feet within the technical arena.

I mean in many, many ways (as a gamer and Halo fan) H3 was just a total let down.

From a gameplay perspective Halo 3 is very damn good and is the most played game on xboc live on consistently regular basis.Also, I recently found out that Bungie hired some of the staff from ND to help with the animations and texturing for Halo Reach.I believe that is an excellent move by Bungie on their part.Halo Reach will not disappoint as Bungie is will aware that the Halo series has to evolve for the better..Can't wait for the beta..

 

[ShadowWolf64]

I had suggested long ago that while sprinting: No aiming/shooting + no shield recharging. Draining shields could be another option (or possibly put at a lower strength setting, etc). Adding no straifing while sprinting could also be a twist.

How melee and jumping interact with sprinting could be interesting (imagine the MC sprint side kick from the commercials).

That would be effin fantastic.In Reach, I would love to see a more dymanic form of melee attacks, depending on the weapon and your physical range from the opposition.I would love to see some hand to hand combat ala Chronicles of Riddick as the Spartans with or without weapons are still very deadly..

 

[Billy Idol]

Here's a good overall essay that's worth reading though:

Thanks man! Great stuff!

 

[Rangers]

Some of the pics remind me of Perfect Dark Zero for some reason:

Yup, that totally came to mind for me too.

 

[ShadowWolf64]

I can think of a couple tangents this thread could take...

Any thoughts on how people would change the gunplay? Halo 3 is the best balanced short-medium-long range shooting game I have played (right there with CS imo) and the melee and nades are really, really well done, especially in context of vehicles.

My first tweak would be the BR/AR. I like the BR a lot, I wouldn't change a thing on it. I think a small boost to the AR may be in order for closer range combat (sub-15 meters).

I could think of other tweaks, but want to hear from others.

Oh, and deployables could get a little more interesting, if not strategically more significant--well suited for squad play. Resistance probably could be a good source of ideas for Covenant weapons. With no Flood (?) this could be an opportunity to introduce new Covenant factions or more nuances Covenant squad structures.

I would love to see secondary fire functions for both the Covenant and Human weapons.For example, a secondary function for the Needler could be something like Needler grenades or mines, whereas you can place an Needler mine on a specific spot and it triggers a hail of pink and deadly shrapnel.Or, the needler grenade could explode and a toxic pink gas could be emitted, causing the opponent to be temporarily disoriented or something along the lines of some sort of physical discomfort.

Another thing that I believe Bungie should add is a health/revive system sorta of like in Gears of War as that would definitely add another nice layer of freshness to the multiplayer aspect of things.I'd love to see class-based deployables as that could be pretty damn cool.So Mr. Luna, what other interesting ideas do you have for Reach mp?Let me know when you can....

 

[PSman]

Judging by those screens the game(so far) look mightily unimpressive.. The guns model are nice (though barely better than Halo 3), but the rest are just average - flat textures, boring environment, poor lighting etc..

Consider Bungie history with the previous Halo games, I wouldn't be surprise at all if this game end up look the same as or worse than Halo 3

Halo 2 looks worse than Halo: CE
Halo ODST looks pretty much the same as Halo 3

and so on..

 

[nightshade]

.....

Are you even serious ?