[H]ardOCP Trying to be too Hard?

[FrgMstr]

I have to give my *unprofessional* opinions here -- i'm not a reviewer nor a 3d programmer, just a gamer. I find it convenient that [H] changed their review policy from apples to apples during the whole image quality debacle. I do not particularly value their "apples to oranges" review style -- in fact I find it insulting that [H] thinks gamers aren't concerned with this. There's nothing about that style shining for me.

There are countless other resources that will supply you with page upon page of apple to apple benchmark, and in fact we make sure to gather the links for you every day. So I fully respect that you find our method of no value. I am unsure why you are insulted by us not sharing the free information that can easily be found elsewhere, but I guess if you want to be insulted, that is also your prerogative.

 

[FrgMstr]

Well that's OK. You can't comprehend when you actually make a mistake and since that cannot be done, how can we expect you to admit it?

Slamming ATi when the fault turned out to be BFG was really smart now wasn't it?

Yes, ATI's Xpress 200 chipset has been a dog in every product we have used, including the CrossFire motherboard I purchased last week. By ATI VP's own admission, it is NOT a high-end or enthusiast product. If you choose to use it in your own system, I wish you luck. I fully stand by our opinions about the chipset.

 

[PARANOiA]

Meh, [H] clearly has chosen a side to back in hardware reviews. Any claim to impartiality is obviously quite blatantly false. As long as everyone understands this, let them sit there and rake in the NVidia cash. If the site is comfortable displaying a lack of integrity, so be it.

What does concern me is people might read the review as if it was factual, and not a sales pitch for the opposition. Thankfully, it's someone nearly all people on this site won't have to worry about.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Yes, ATI's Xpress 200 chipset has been a dog in every product we have used, including the CrossFire motherboard I purchased last week. By ATI VP's own admission, it is NOT a high-end or enthusiast product. If you choose to use it in your own system, I wish you luck. I fully stand by our opinions about the chipset.

In this case your opion is not required since it was not the fault of the chipset. Why haven't you slammed BFG for making an unstable video card? I read that entire article and then i read the followup and all I can say is you are stuck on stupid to be still trying to say that ATi's chipset had anything to do with it

 

[FrgMstr]

Meh, [H] clearly has chosen a side to back in hardware reviews. Any claim to impartiality is obviously quite blatantly false. As long as everyone understands this, let them sit there and rake in the NVidia cash. If the site is comfortable displaying a lack of integrity, so be it.

What does concern me is people might read the review as if it was factual, and not a sales pitch for the opposition. Thankfully, it's someone nearly all people on this site won't have to worry about.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Here is the most obviously NVIDIA-biased paragraph I have read in a while that I took out of Brent's X1x00 evaluation. It is almost like he is on the NVIDIA dole.

The bottom line is that the Radeon X1800 XL and X1600 XT compete very well with what NVIDIA has out there. They do not offer any large performance increases, but they do add a few quality improvements that may be beneficial to gamers. With the X1000 series, you have control over anisotropic filtering and you can also now enable a high quality method to create the absolute best filtering in your games. The X1000 series also supports anti-aliasing with HDR. This could potentially be a big feature if future games start to use a lot of HDR. The performance of HDR with AA in new games is really yet to be seen, but if these video cards can master it, they might just have a good image quality advantage over the GeForce 7 series. All the talk about being able to do dynamic branching very fast could also be an advantage if those features are used heavily in future titles.

 

[FrgMstr]

In this case your opion is not required since it was not the fault of the chipset. Why haven't you slammed BFG for making an unstable video card? I read that entire article and then i read the followup and all I can say is you are stuck on stupid to be still trying to say that ATi's chipset had anything to do with it

Yeah, call me crazy, after a week of Falcon's tech support referring to problem after problem with the motherboard. And just to note, had every card we had ever seen (or any of them since the 5X00 series) been a POS, we might have a slightly different opinion of them too. Opinions are not formed at HardOCP overnight or by one peice of hardware. Send me 10 that are crap, and we call them "crap."

But you are 100% correct about one thing. My opinion is NOT required. But then again you are smart enough not to open a page to the hardocp.com domain unless you want to read it. You have figured that out have you not?

 

[PARANOiA]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Here is the most obviously NVIDIA-biased paragraph I have read in a while that I took out of Brent's X1x00 evaluation. It is almost like he is on the NVIDIA dole.

You can post occasional tidbits favourable to your arguement, but you are well known for having a very heavy bias towards NVidia.

But I'm probably just speading "canuck lies", right?

 

[nelg]

Kyle, did you contact ATI?

 

[FrgMstr]

Meh, [H] clearly has chosen a side to back in hardware reviews. Any claim to impartiality is obviously quite blatantly false. As long as everyone understands this, let them sit there and rake in the NVidia cash. If the site is comfortable displaying a lack of integrity, so be it.

Oh wait! I just found another one of that obvously and quite blatantly false claims. Is this the one you were referring to?

One thing is certain though; if you play on the red side of the fence, you no longer have to be green with envy at the other kids who are already enjoying life with Shader Model 3.0 and HDR. There is now another choice (if/when they become available in retail), and when it comes down to it, the more choices for the consumer, the better off we all are.

If you are an ATI fan, the X1800 and X1600 cards look to be worth the wait. If you are not an ATI fan, you will likely be better off purchasing an GeForce 7800 series card if you are a serious gamer.

 

[FrgMstr]

You can post occasional tidbits favourable to your arguement, but you are well known for having a very heavy bias towards NVidia.

But I'm probably just speading "canuck lies", right?

If the skate fits....

 

[FrgMstr]

Kyle, did you contact ATI?

Actually I have contacted ATI a LOT here lately. Can you be a bit more focused in your question?

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Yeah, call me crazy, after a week of Falcon's tech support referring to problem after problem with the motherboard. And just to note, had every card we had ever seen (or any of them since the 5X00 series) been a POS, we might have a slightly different opinion of them too. Opinions are not formed at HardOCP overnight or by one peice of hardware. Send me 10 that are crap, and we call them "crap."

But you are 100% correct about one thing. My opinion is NOT required. But then again you are smart enough not to open a page to the hardocp.com domain unless you want to read it. You have figured that out have you not?

You are comical....not! Tell me something since you are the smart one, how is it that you can slam ATi's product even though it was not the cause of the problem in this case? You are quick to shoot off at the mouth but slow to actually think before you talk.....

I doubt you will be getting anything else from the fragbox guys in the future.........

 

[Geo]

C'mon guys, I wrote the article, I deserve some flak, too! I'm feeling left out here!

Sorry for our manners in ignoring your request.

You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.



But more seriously, while it is Kyle's site and he certainly has the big "the buck stops here" sign on his desk (well, at least figuratively), it is true that we probably look past authors too much and go right for "the principal".

But since you're here and practically begging to be asked to wade into the deep end --why don't you tell us what you think of this whole issue?

Personally, my first thot was to go "Hmm, an ATI chipset controversy following so closely on the heels of an NV chipset controversy. Coincidence, or somebody feeling a need to point publicly at the perceived mote in the other fellows eye?" But then it is well known I have a nasty suspicious mind for such "coincidences".

 

[Skrying]

Kyle, I think the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that you didnt even knock BFG one bit. There of course is a reason for that, and you can deny it all you want. But BFG is one of your lead sponsors, if not your top one. You recommend them ALWAYS when it comes to graphics cards, every single price guide done at HardOCP, you also always do BFG card reviews before any others, you always recommend the cards, in fact I dont think you've ever slammed the company once.

The fact is that you'd probably lose some money if you did. You in fact do let it cloud your judgement and I strongly believe actually that if the card would have been any other brand you would have brought it up and not have stuck to your "the ATi chipset is crap... even if it wasnt its fault" thing you have going right now.

The only real bias I think you have is for money.

 

[FrgMstr]

You are comical....not! Tell me something since you are the smart one, how is it that you can slam ATi's product even though it was not the cause of the problem in this case? You are quick to shoot off at the mouth but slow to actually think before you talk.....

I doubt you will be getting anything else from the fragbox guys in the future.........

That is an easy one. And let me type this again since you don't seem to get it. I have a very low opinion of the Radeon Xpress 200 chipset because of my personal experiences with the retail products that we have been exposed to over the last year. And as current as of today. That sir, is how I can "slam" ATI's product. If you would care to share your numerous positive experiences with the product, I would be happy to listen. And why would I want to listen for those experiences, and better yet even have some of my own? Because that is how we form opinions about hardware. See how it works?

Our agreement still stands with Falcon Northwest, and we will cover another system of theirs very soon. The president of Falcon Northwest wants to very much support our system evaluation program as he has stated to me that he believes it to have a good bit of merit in the industry. That said, other companies are already using HardOCP.com quotes in their marketing campaigns. Falcon Northwest is a solid and respectable company, and I doubt one bad issue will have them with their tail between their legs.

 

[FrgMstr]

Sorry for our manners in ignoring your request.

You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.



But more seriously, while it is Kyle's site and he certainly has the big "the buck stops here" sign on his desk (well, at least figuratively), it is true that we probably look past authors too much and go right for "the principal".

But since you're here and practically begging to be asked to wade into the deep end --why don't you tell us what you think of this whole issue?

Personally, my first thot was to go "Hmm, an ATI chipset controversy following so closely on the heels of an NV chipset controversy. Coincidence, or somebody feeling a need to point publicly at the perceived mote in the other fellows eye?" But then it is well known I have a nasty suspicious mind for such "coincidences".

I have asked Chris and Brent to step aside and allow me to field this tonight so we don't get our wires crossed. Here is what Chris had to say in our follow up article. I think it should answer your questions.

Recently we have been in contact with Falcon Northwest after we posted a not so kind article about their FragBox 2. Specifically, we had some major issues with stability in the one program that we bought it for: Battlefield 2.

During the course of our troubleshooting alongside Falcon’s technicians for a period of over a week, everyone involved was looking at a memory timing issue on the MSI motherboard powered by the ATI Xpress 200 chipset. I had already experienced poor quality sound out of the integrated solution, and I needed a driver update to get 5.1 surround sound to operate properly and to get rid of a ‘popping’ sound that would occur in Battlefield 2. For over a week, we heard from Falcon Northwest about all of the trouble they had getting the motherboard to be stable in games like World of Warcraft and Serious Sam 2 while running at the rated CAS speed of their Corsair memory. They finally ended up having to lower the CAS latency to 3 from its default of 2 to get these games to run stable. They also required at least one BIOS fix from MSI. An email from Falcon’s support stated specifically that our problems resided in the motherboard’s ability to handle memory timings.

So when I went into the final stages of writing our article, in my mind the problems existed squarely with the motherboard. We published the finished article last Tuesday. Falcon Northwest had received the system the day before, and immediately began troubleshooting the problem.

By Thursday they came to the conclusion that the issue was a very subtle, and still undiagnosed, problem with the video card. Kelt Reeves, Falcon’s President, was extremely surprised that it was the video card and not the motherboard.

I have no reason to doubt Falcon Northwest in their assessment. Assuming their diagnosis is true, it calls into question some of the statements I made regarding the motherboard in the FragBox 2. I stated in the article that the MSI motherboard with ATI Xpress 200 was a poor solution. I was extremely confident in my remarks after the hours of conversation with Falcon Northwest technicians and Kelt Reeves. However, I think that our timing of returning the system and publishing the article was unfortunate and I regrettably made definitive statements about MSI and ATI without having the issue fully resolved.

Regardless, I stand by my overall assessment of the FragBox 2 as stated in the article. I was unhappy with the performance of the system we received, and after weeks of troubleshooting it, I felt that as a consumer who just spent $3200 on a gaming machine, I needed to mitigate my risk and return the system. Whether or not the problem lay in the motherboard, video card, or magic pixie dust, it all comes down to the fact that the system simply didn’t work.

Either way, I appreciate Falcon Northwest’s communications with us after the article was posted, their resolve to fix the issue, and their continued participation in our systems evaluation program. We look forward to getting another one of their systems in our labs.

 

[Skrying]

What do you mean wires crossed? You're all telling the same story.....

 

[ANova]

Hehe, you can't comprehend a one sentence post, so I am not sure you could make it through one of Brent's evaluations. But just so you feel better, you are right on all counts. I highly suggest you remove us from your bookmarks before we inflict any more dain bramage. The impact we have caused is already immeasurable.

Lovely attitude you got there, and quite telling.

I've read many of your reviews and while the actual numbers are usually correct, the commentary shines. If I had a bias meter it would be off the charts.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I have a very low opinion of the Radeon Xpress 200 chipset because of my personal experiences with the retail products that we have been exposed to over the last year.

In other words, a pre-disposed opinion of yours (valid or not) either

1) Prevents you from being interested in evaluating and criticizing products as they are set before you...you already know "the answer". Why even review the falcon product since you truly believed it was crap from the onset?

or

2) Gives you a "reason" to purposely mislead your readership with wreckless regard for any truth.

Nice.

 

[FrgMstr]

Kyle, I think the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is that you didnt even knock BFG one bit. There of course is a reason for that, and you can deny it all you want. But BFG is one of your lead sponsors, if not your top one. You recommend them ALWAYS when it comes to graphics cards, every single price guide done at HardOCP, you also always do BFG card reviews before any others, you always recommend the cards, in fact I dont think you've ever slammed the company once.

The fact is that you'd probably lose some money if you did. You in fact do let it cloud your judgement and I strongly believe actually that if the card would have been any other brand you would have brought it up and not have stuck to your "the ATi chipset is crap... even if it wasnt its fault" thing you have going right now.

The only real bias I think you have is for money.

BFGTech has a track record of consistently building quality products that work. That is why I repeatedly recommend them. I recommended them consistently BEFORE they were a sponsor. VIA has been a sponsor for years. You don't see us recommending a bunch of their products do you? No. That is because I don't find any of their products of great value to the enthusiast currently. ABIT has taken a few on the chin this year with us…..they have advertised with us longer than anyone. Corsair advertises with us, and we have never done a Ram review…. I have lost advertisers before over harsh reviews. They come and they go. MSI left because we gave them a bad motherboard review, and they have never come back for I think 2 years now. That is the breaks.

So while your "paid off" argument sounds great for anyone inclined to buy into conspiracy theories, when the facts come down, it just ain't so. Our editors that do product evaluations stay away from the money side of the business and have implicit instructions to speak their minds based on their product experiences whether the product be from an advertiser or not.

You can take that for what it is worth. But the fact of the matter is that out of you and I, I am the only one with the knowledge to be making such statements, and your posting is based on things you just made up while sitting their behind your keyboard. If you really want some answers, why don’t you send some mails to our editors and ask them if they are leaned on for certain conclusions or if their content is ever changed as to impact their opinions instead of just making stuff up?