Grammar question

[Humus]

For you native english speaking people, which of these lines is correct?

Five instructions is what we need.
Five instructions are what we need.

The first one kinda sounds right to me. It's plural, but then I'm thinking that "is" refers to the need (which is singular) rather than to the instructions (which is plural).

Word's grammers check thinks the first is incorrect and suggests the second, though the teacher in the english course I read last year told us that the grammar check is often wrong and rejects correct sentences and often accepts incorrect sentences.

If I rewrite it like this it accepts it both ways:

What we need is five instructions.
What we need are five instructions.

 

[nelg]

are

 

[Humus]

Oki doki ...

The second way of writing it. It's it really acceptable both ways? If so, why?

 

[Silent_One]

"It depends on what the meaning of is is." - Bill Clinton

 

[nelg]

Oki doki ...

The second way of writing it. It's it really acceptable both ways? If so, why?

Perhaps because the word "need" implies a condition that already exist. Therefore it effects the tence. Besides it just sounds better.

 

[Mariner]

I think it's best to say that Five instructions is what we need is not correct per se, but is easily understandable as with many terms in English. It's not too hard to be understood, but it is difficult to get it exactly right!

I must say that I'm very impressed with the quality of written English of many of overseas posters on this board. It is certainly a great deal better than that of many native speakers I encounter and I fear for today's kids as they r sms txt msg adicts and consequently can't spell!

 

[Humus]

Oki doki ...

The second way of writing it. It's it really acceptable both ways? If so, why?

Perhaps because the word "need" implies a condition that already exist. Therefore it effects the tence. Besides it just sounds better.

Now I'm getting a little unsure here ... first of all I'm unsure what you mean. :? Then I'm unsure about if you refer to these sentences,
What we need is five instructions.
What we need are five instructions.
(which I was asking about if they both were acceptable, though maybe I wasn't so clear) or if you're referring to the second line in the first set of sentences.

Shouldn't it be "tense" btw?

 

[Vince]

Linguistically, "Is" should be utilized when referring to a singular noun ( thus 1 object) or non-countable objects. "Are" should be used when referring to a plurality of objects.

And no, both are not correct AFAIK; only the latter.

I knew this was right, because it sounded correct, but took some thinking to realize why...

PS. I can't spell to save my life on here (Probobly due to the fact that I never learned to type properly), but I'm pretty good at the grammatical aspects and am 99% sure of this.

 

[Humus]

I think it's best to say that Five instructions is what we need is not correct per se, but is easily understandable as with many terms in English. It's not too hard to be understood, but it is difficult to get it exactly right!

Well, I just encountered this today when writing a report. It better be correct there, and somehow I suspected that the grammar check was correct after all, but to me it just sounded better with "is". Or actually, it just sounded wrong with "are" for some reason, not sure why. I usually don't have a problem with grammar, it just comes fairly naturally; I seldom think in grammar terms and rules, just when it clashes like this. And my english teachers words of advice not to rely too much on the grammar check since "it's really not that good" as he put it, being native british and all, kinda always hangs around in the back of my head.

 

[Humus]

And no, both are not correct AFAIK; only the latter.

Lol, now I'm confused again which lines are being referred to.
Guess you're saying no.1 is incorrect and no.2 is correct, right? Rather than talking about 3 & 4?

So we have established that,

(1) Five instructions is what we need. [Wrong]
(2) Five instructions are what we need.

(3) What we need is five instructions.
(4) What we need are five instructions.

Makes sense so far, though is both 3 and 4 correct? Word's grammar check seems to think so, but I can't make any sense of it, gramatically at least. Both kinda sound right in their own way.

PS. I can't spell to save my life on here (Probobly

Indeed ​

 

[Mariner]

OK, Humus, here's another foible of English:

When talking about two objects/items/whatever, the first one you mention is known as the former and the second one is the latter.

Here's a (rather poor) example:

Imagine that I am holding an apple and a cabbage. The former can be described as a fruit and the latter is a vegetable.

 

[Vince]

Makes sense so far, though is both 3 and 4 correct? Word's grammar check seems to think so, but I can't make any sense of it, grammatically at least. Both kinda sound right in their own way.

Yes, 3&4 are definitely more difficult. I'd lean towards 4 as being the 'correct' answer, although most people would glance over it. If you take the numerals out of the sentence, it becomes:

What we need is instructions.
What we need are instructions.

And I'd stick with 'are' as you're referring to a plurality of objects from a plural subject. 'Is' would be used like:

What we need is hope. //intangible with an uncountable property
What we need is a car. //a single object

PS. I can't spell to save my life on here (Probobly...

Indeed

I give up

 

[Humus]

OK, Humus, here's another foible of English:

When talking about two objects/items/whatever, the first one you mention is known as the former and the second one is the latter.

Here's a (rather poor) example:

Imagine that I am holding an apple and a cabbage. The former can be described as a fruit and the latter is a vegetable.

Well, I know that and frequently use those words myself. However, when you have two groups of sentences it becomes unclear whether "latter" refers to the latter of the first group (no.2) or the latter of the second group (no.4).

 

[Basic]

Using "is" instead of "are" seems to be a common error among Swedes. I know several people that do it, and I myself can think that it sounds OK, even if I know it's wrong.

I'm pretty sure that it's this way:
Right: 2, 4
Wrong: 1, 3

"Are" is refering to the instructions, and there's more than one of them. "Need" is neither plural nor singular, it's not a noun.

Only argument I can think of that makes 3 right, is if "five instructions" is seen as one unit some way. (It's one solution to your problem, consisting of five subparts.) But that's probably just one more time that I incorrectly think that "is" sounds good.

[Disclamer]
It's not my native language.

[Disclamer2]
I blame all my misspellings on my keyboard.

 

[Vince]

Only argument I can think of that makes 3 right, is if "five instructions" is seen as one unit some way. (It's one solution to your problem, consisting of five subparts.) But that's probably just one more time that I incorrectly think that "is" sounds good.

I was actually thinking the same thing previously, but it's a slippery-slope type deal where any plural grouping can be arbitrarily renamed as a new variable and utilized with 'is', (ex. "What we need is a 'Humus'", with 'humus' being equivalent to 10,000 solutions). Thus, if the word* is nativly plural - go with 'are'.

Rule of thumb, if it's plural - use 'are'. If it's singular - use 'is'.

* Not definition of the word.

[Disclamer2]
I blame all my misspellings on my keyboard.

Hey, you too?!?

 

[Mariner]

Well, I know that and frequently use those words myself. However, when you have two groups of sentences it becomes unclear whether "latter" refers to the latter of the first group (no.2) or the latter of the second group (no.4).

Ah - I misunderstood what you were getting at. In any situation, the latter should always be the last thing mentioned out of a group.

Vince is right about No. 4 being correct - plural is always 'are', singular 'is'.

I'll agree with Basic about Scandinavians often getting 'is' and 'are' mixed up - my sister's former boyfriend was Finnish and, although he spoke very good English, he often used to get these mixed up. Thinking about it, both Dutch and Belgian people who I've dealt with at work get this wrong quite frequently as well.

As always, no criticism intended to our foreign friends as I don't speak a word of Swedish/Finnish/Dutch/Flemish!

 

[kyleb]

active voice is preferable to passive sentence structure. it is best to use:

We need five instructions.

 

[Humus]

Alright, so then 3 is wrong? Guess that proves the point my english teacher had. Just for the heck of it I tried to see what kind of crap I could make the grammar check accept. Here's a couple of samples of what it thinks is correct:

They are they is.
Is it we good?
Fine is it is bad.

Not sure if these can pass according to some gramatical rules, but it's definitely nonsense. Which is actually more of a problem than the grammar itself for me. I often leave nonsensical sentences in the middle of the text, typically writing something twice after I've stopped in the middle of a sentense to think a little. Like beginning with "They are" then stop and continue and it's ends up as "They are they are good" or whatever. If it's would be written as "They are are good" the grammar check would catch it, but it can't catch double-word doubles or just plain nonsense unfortunately. Sometimes I do something similar on the spelling side too, I write a completely different word than I intended but spell it correctly so the spell check doesn't catch it. Like writing "boat" instead of "jacket", no kidding, it's almost at that level at times. Usually deserves a little "" when I discover it. Sometimes I wonder though how many such things I leave in forum posts and never notice it

About Swedes having problems with is/are/am, that's not really a surprise. Swedish only has one word for all those cases, "är".

 

[Sage]

Actually, I would debate that number 1 and 3 are correct. If, what you mean, is that you have need of five independant objects then the use of "are" woule be correct, however I took it to mean that you had a sinular need of multiple objects. Because the need is singular then the object is going to be singular as well, even if it is made upof multiple objects.

 

[Mariner]

I often leave nonsensical sentences in the middle of the text, typically writing something twice after I've stopped in the middle of a sentense to think a little.

I wouldn't worry about that too much - I do exactly the same at times. I've also got a nasty habit (when writing e-mail, or on message boards) of deciding to change the start of a sentence after finishing the end. Ultimately, I often end up totally re-writing half of the stuff I post before pressing "submit"!

Actually, I would debate that number 1 and 3 are correct. If, what you mean, is that you have need of five independant objects then the use of "are" woule be correct, however I took it to mean that you had a sinular need of multiple objects. Because the need is singular then the object is going to be singular as well, even if it is made upof multiple objects.

Hmm. Doesn't really make sense to me, I'm afraid. Ultimately, what we need are 5 somethings (instructions in this case) - not one block of 5 instructions.

An instruction is a unit so 5 instructions are 5 units, not one "5-unit". I think that sounds about right to me. Getting a little late for me now, though, so I'll bid adieu to all.