Futuremark: 3DMark06

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by trinibwoy, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. neliz

    neliz GIGABYTE Man
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    That results in a relative CPU performance for that workload.
    Like every benchmark, if they're benchmarking something you don't use, it's irrelevant to you.

    The problem is with 3dmark06 is that by this time next month it will allready be an obsolete benchmark.
     
  2. Neeyik

    Neeyik Homo ergaster
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    It's not - all rendering is done by the graphics card, unlike in 03/05 where the vertex shaders were done on the CPU.
     
  3. bigmouse

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    I'm a user of Geforce 6200.I know that this display card can't run the HDR/SM3.0 demos of 3dmark06 by default.But how to let it to run HDR/SM3.0 demos by adding parameters?
     
  4. Neeyik

    Neeyik Homo ergaster
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    You can't - the HDR/SM3.0 use FP16 blending which the 6200 simply cannot do.
     
  5. Cowboy X

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    I considered the bri-linear 'optimisations' present in those days to be cheats , since they visibly( sometimes significantly ) lowered quality while boosting speed .But why i thought them to truly be cheats :

    1/ Not done transparently to users or people like us who follow things like this .

    2/ Lies , smoke and mirrors hindered us getting to the bottom of these bug/optimisations .

    3/ Sliders and quality modes in the drivers that blatantly were not working or purposely did less than what they were supposed to do .

    Importantly bri-linear as it is now called was applied across the board in the nv drivers and affected all DX games not just DX 9 ones . What made matters worse was that in many cases FX hardware would have done quite well without the optimisations especially in their highend ( 5800 5800U 5900 5900U ) with DX 8 and DX 7 and hybrid games ( Unreal Tournament 2003 etc ) . But because they would likely lose the benchmark or at least not look as good as the ATI high end offerings FX users were subjected to subterfuge and poor image quality for benchmarketing purposes .

    Some people still don't think that bri-linear as it was applied then is/was a cheat or bad optimisation , but I do . If you don't , no problem we can agree to disagree .
     
  6. Mariner

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    Ooh, look. Another article from The Inquirer entitled, 3DMark06 confuses Fuad

    Goodness, I wish he'd get a clue. :lol:
     
  7. Razor1

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    LOL its good that he knows he is confused :lol:
     
  8. Jawed

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    Actually I think it's a good point, overall.

    Indeed, maybe it would have been better if FM had created 3DMk06 as a purely SM3 benchmark.

    It would have better-reflected the future prospects of the available GPUs - even if we're still a long way from seeing a game with intensive use of SM3.

    Oh, and isn't it more fun to link to:

    http://www.chipzilla.com/?article=29188

    Jawed
     
  9. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    Grrrrr. He actually posted pictures showing the actual breakdown of scores:
    1600 XT SM2.0 883, SM3.0 896.
    X850 SM2.0 1153, SM3.0 N/A.

    IMO any intelligent person should be able to figure out that you need to use the SM2.0 and SM3.0 scores independantly in '06 when comparing video cards. The final 3DMark score is completely unsuitable for this, not only because of this issue (the penalty on SM2.0-only cards), but because of the CPU score being factored in. What the 3DMark score does do is indicate that in future games, in order to support their full featureset with the best performance a SM3.0 capable card and a multi-core processor will be needed. Any arguments with this? The means they chose to do this was making the lack of these factor negatively into the 3DMark score.

    This benchmark is just a tool. And when it comes to how well reviewers use it I'll refer to the old saying, "Blame the craftsman, not the tools."

    Edited for readability
     
    #609 mrcorbo, Jan 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2006
  10. ANova

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    In this case the best way to compare them would be by disabling the SM3 tests, since both were run on the same system with the same CPU. Fuad makes a good point, the majority of people look at the final score, not the individual scores and this gives SM3 capable cards an artificial advantage that will not translate to real world games. Not to mention the different paths ATI and nvidia cards are running regardless of whether or not they're SM3 capable. 3dmark06 is fun to look at, but otherwise completely pointless imo.
     
  11. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    Why bother changing the settings? The damn score is right there. It takes no additional effort to get these results, that's what drives me crazy. It's shows either true ignorance or willful ignorance, because laziness isn't a possible excuse.

    The majority of people don't really factor into it. Any idiot can do a run of 3DMark. But a competant reviewer should be able to analyze the results and comprehend what they mean. You can make the same comparisons WRT performance as you could make using '05. You just have to go about it differently.

    Finally, there will be effects introduced in games that will be SM3.0-only. There is going to be a performance advantage for multi-core processors. And IMO it is proper for a benchmark that is aiming to be an indicator of how capable your system is of running these future tiltles to take this into account in some way. How else could they quantify the fact that a card may be equivalent in raw power to a newer design, but won't be capable of running at the same settings because of missing features? How else could they indicate how your GPU may be stalled while D3D fights with the AI and physics threads for CPU time?

    The gripe about using shader code that favors Nvidia hardware is the only one that I really don't dispute, because I can't. This is something that I will leave to the experts to argue. I will ask this, though. Given the default settings that 3DMark '06 runs at (no AA or AF) are the results that we have seen so far that far off what can be proven (i.e. current shader-heavy games)?
     
  12. ANova

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    And this is the problem. Look around various forums, those that have a "Post your 3dmark06" thread only post the overall score, then complain when their X850 XT and Athlon 64 3500+ is being outperformed by an X1600 XT and Pentium D 3.0 GHz. This benchmark has changed things, but most people aren't aware of the changes and what they mean. Furthermore unless you buy it you cannot fiddle with the settings to compare to each other. Yes a competant reviewer should be able to analyze the results, but the fact is not all reviewers are as knowledged in this area as others.

    There's a fundamental problem with this. Firstly, the primary benefits to SM3 over SM2 are barely or not even being used in this benchmark. There really is very little difference between the two; most games (including 3dm06) are simply choosing to equate HDR with SM3 because SM3 capable cards also have the features to more easily implement it, any shaders in SM3 can be done in SM2 in addition, they may simply run a little slower depending on the complexity and whether or not they make use of dynamic branching, it's up to the developers to decide. Considering DirectX 10 is around the corner (end of this year) I doubt SM3 will have any significant life, and within a year non DX10 games will probably fall back to SM2 rather then SM3 since there are more cards in the mainstream for the former. Not to mention some SM3 cards are too slow to make any use of things like dynamic branching. Just because one may not be able to run HDR or a shader catered specifically toward SM3 doesn't mean the card that does support these features should recieve a much higher score, that does not equate to performance, that equates to extra visuals.

    As far as multi-core processors, while they will most definitely help in future titles that make use of all the cores I'd say the results given are exadurated being that it can double the cpu score. It is doubtful that we'll see anywhere near that significant of a performance increase in anything other than synthetic benchmarks.

    Any results that you get cannot be taken seriously since both cards aren't running the same settings and optimizations. If you compare the GTX 512 to the X1900 XTX the latter only beats the former by a small amount. In games like FEAR and AOE3 which are indicative of where future titles are going, ie. much more shader heavy, we are seeing a much bigger real world performance difference between the two. I'd hardly call that a future looking benchmark, which is rather self contradictory since 3dmark07 will likely be replacing it by the end of this year or beginning of next year.
     
    #612 ANova, Jan 26, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2006
  13. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    No fiddling necessary. Again, the results you need to compare are right there when you run the default benchmark. And you can't really trust an incompetant reviewer to give you a good review regardless of what benchmarks they run. It's the craftsman not the tools....



    Yup. :)

    I disagree with this. Over the next 8 months I think we will see a signifigant uptake in the numbers of SM3.0 hardware and thus much more use of HDR and other features that may be best implemented on SM3.0 capable hardware, even if it isn't strictly the SM3.0 compliance that enables them.

    You're probably right. The hit in the '06 results does kinda drive the point home, though. Maybe they just wanted to make sure that people "got it".



    I couldn't find a single review that supports this for these two games. With no AA/AF enabled the performance differences are roughly the same (in the %10 range) as the difference in the '06 scores. Maybe you can find some links. If you want to compare with AA/AF results you would have to get the SM2.0 results from both cards in '06 with AA/AF enabled and compare that.
     
  14. tEd

    tEd Casual Member
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    I'm sure it has been mentioned in this thread before somewhere but i couldn't find a clear answer.

    For what is DB exactly used in 3dmark06?

    thx
     
  15. KimB

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    Probably soft shadows.
     
  16. Neeyik

    Neeyik Homo ergaster
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    Although I've not sat through the several hundred pixel shader dumps, the longer ones from the HDR test look something like this:
    [size=-5]
    Code:
    ps_3_0
    
    def c6 , -0.018729299306869507000000, 0.074261002242565155000000, 1.570728778839111300000000, 10000.000000000000000000000000
    
    def c7 , 0.000000000000000000000000, 1.000000000000000000000000, 0.031250000000000000000000, 0.062500000000000000000000
    
    def c8 , 2.000000000000000000000000, -1.000000000000000000000000, 1.000000000000000000000000, -0.212114393711090090000000
    
    def c9 , 0.416087001562118530000000, -0.303380995988845830000000, 0.135195001959800720000000, 0.220419004559516910000000
    
    def c10 , -0.183682993054389950000000, 0.077253997325897217000000, -0.252817988395690920000000, -0.237764000892639160000000
    
    def c11 , -0.054127000272274017000000, 0.662913024425506590000000, -0.031250000000000000000000, 0.318309873342514040000000
    
    def c12 , -0.486135989427566530000000, 0.397747993469238280000000, -0.397747993469238280000000, 3.000000000000000000000000
    
    def c13 , 0.574523985385894780000000, -0.062500000000000000000000, -0.574523985385894780000000, 0.108253002166748050000000
    
    def c14 , -0.625000000000000000000000, -0.750000000000000000000000, 0.875000000000000000000000, 0.187500000000000000000000
    
    def c15 , 1.000000000000000000000000, 1.001000046730041500000000, -0.797193884849548340000000, 0.014567226171493530000000
    
    def c16 , 0.636619746685028080000000, -1.009999990463256800000000, -1.120000004768371600000000, 0.000100009805464651440000
    
    def c17 , 0.500000000000000000000000, 1.000000000000000000000000, 0.159154936671257020000000, 16.000000000000000000000000
    
    dcl_texcoord0  v0.xy 
    dcl_texcoord1  v1.xy 
    dcl_texcoord2  v2.xyz 
    dcl_texcoord3  v3.xyz 
    dcl_texcoord4  v4.xyz 
    dcl_texcoord5  v5.xyz 
    dcl_texcoord6  v6.xyz 
    dcl_texcoord7  v7.xyz 
    dcl v4096.xy 
    dcl_2d s0 
    dcl_2d s1 
    dcl_2d s2 
    dcl_2d s3 
    dcl_2d s4 
    dcl_cube s5 
    dcl_cube s6 
    texld r0 , v0.xyxx , s3 
    mad_pp r1.xyz , c8.xxxx , r0.wyzw , c8.yyyy 
    nrm_pp r2.xyz , v2 
    dp3_pp r4.x , r1 , v3 
    dp3_pp r4.y , r1 , v4 
    dp3_pp r4.z , r1 , v5 
    dp3_pp r0.x , r2 , v3 
    dp3_pp r0.y , r2 , v4 
    dp3_pp r0.z , r2 , v5 
    dp3_pp r0.w , -r0 , r4 
    add_pp r0.w , r0.wwww , r0.wwww 
    dp3_sat_pp r2.w , r1 , r2 
    mad_pp r0.xyz , r4 , -r0.wwww , -r0 
    texld_pp r1 , r0 , s6 
    mad_pp r0.w , r2.wwww , c6.xxxx , c6.yyyy 
    add_pp r0.z , -r2.wwww , c8.zzzz 
    mad_pp r0.w , r0.wwww , r2.wwww , c8.wwww 
    rsq_pp r0.z , r0.zzzz 
    mad_pp r0.w , r0.wwww , r2.wwww , c6.zzzz 
    rcp_pp r0.z , r0.zzzz 
    mul_pp r0.w , r0.wwww , r0.zzzz 
    mad r0.xy , r0.wwww , c16.xxxx , c16.yzzw 
    mul r0.xy , r0 , r0 
    rcp r0.x , r0.xxxx 
    rcp r0.y , r0.yyyy 
    add r0.w , -r0.xxxx , c6.wwww 
    mul r1.w , r0.wwww , c16.wwww 
    add r2.w , r0.yyyy , c15.zzzz 
    texld r0 , v0.xyxx , s2 
    mov r6.z , c4.xxxx 
    add r2.z , -r6.zzzz , c5.xxxx 
    mad r2.w , r2.wwww , -c15.wwww , c15.xxxx 
    mad_pp r5.w , r0.wwww , r2.zzzz , c4.xxxx 
    mul_pp r3 , r0.xyzz , c3.xyzz 
    mul_pp r2.z , r5.wwww , r5.wwww 
    add_pp r0 , r3 , c8.yyyy 
    mad_pp r4.w , r5.wwww , -r2.zzzz , c8.zzzz 
    mad r2 , r2.wwww , r0 , c8.zzzz 
    add_pp r0.xy , -r4.wwww , c15 
    mad_sat_pp r1.w , r0.yyyy , r1.wwww , r0.xxxx 
    add_pp r5.w , -r5.wwww , c8.zzzz 
    texld_pp r0 , r4 , s5 
    mul_pp r0 , r3 , r0.xyzz 
    mul_pp r1 , r1.xyzz , r1.wwww 
    mul_pp r0 , r5.wwww , r0 
    mul r2 , r2 , r1 
    mul_pp r0 , r4.wwww , r0 
    texld r1 , v1.xyxx , s4 
    mul r2 , r2 , r1.wwww 
    mad_pp r0 , r0 , r1.xxxx , r2 
    cmp r2.w , -v6.zzzz , c7.xxxx , c7.yyyy 
    mul r1.xy , v4096 , c7.zzzz 
    texld_pp r1 , r1 , s1 
    if_ne r2 , -r2.wwww    ******* NOTE ******
    dsx r2 , v7.xyxy 
    dsy r3 , v7.xyxy 
    add r2 , abs r2 , abs r3 
    mov r3.w , c2.xxxx 
    mad_pp r2 , r2 , r3.wwww , c1.xyxy 
    mul_pp r4 , r1.zwxy , r2 
    mad r2 , r4 , c14.zzww , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r1 , r2.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r5 , r2.zwzw , s0 
    mad r2 , r4.zwzw , c17.xxyy , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r3 , r2.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r2 , r2.zwzw , s0 
    mov r1.y , r5.xxxx 
    mov r1.z , r3.xxxx 
    mov r1.w , r2.xxxx 
    mul_pp r2 , r4 , c9.xxyy 
    add r1 , r1 , -v7.zzzz 
    mad_pp r2 , r4.zwxy , c9.zzww , r2 
    cmp_pp r1 , r1 , c7.yyyy , c7.xxxx 
    add r3 , r2 , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r2 , r3.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r5 , r3.zwzw , s0 
    mul_pp r3 , r4 , c10.xxyy 
    mad_pp r3 , r4.zwxy , c10.zzww , r3 
    mov r2.y , r5.xxxx 
    add r3 , r3 , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r5 , r3.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r3 , r3.zwzw , s0 
    mov r2.z , r5.xxxx 
    mov r2.w , r3.xxxx 
    add r3 , r2 , -v7.zzzz 
    mul_pp r2 , r4 , c11.xxyy 
    cmp_pp r3 , r3 , c7.yyyy , c7.xxxx 
    mad_pp r2 , r4.zwxy , c11.zzyy , r2 
    dp4_pp r6.w , r3 , c7.wwww 
    add r2 , r2 , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r3 , r2.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r5 , r2.zwzw , s0 
    mul_pp r2 , r4 , c12.xxyy 
    mad_pp r2 , r4.zwxy , c12.xxzz , r2 
    mov r3.y , r5.xxxx 
    add r5 , r2 , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r2 , r5.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r5 , r5.zwzw , s0 
    mov r3.z , r2.xxxx 
    mul_pp r2 , r4 , c13.xxyy 
    mov r3.w , r5.xxxx 
    mad_pp r2 , r4.zwxy , c13.zzww , r2 
    add r3 , r3 , -v7.zzzz 
    add r5 , r2 , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r2 , r5.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r5 , r5.zwzw , s0 
    mov r2.y , r5.xxxx 
    mad r4 , r4 , c14.xxyy , v7.xyxy 
    texldl r5 , r4.xyxy , s0 
    texldl r4 , r4.zwzw , s0 
    mov r2.z , r5.xxxx 
    mov r2.w , r4.xxxx 
    cmp_pp r3 , r3 , c7.yyyy , c7.xxxx 
    add r2 , r2 , -v7.zzzz 
    dp4 r3.w , r3 , c7.wwww 
    cmp_pp r2 , r2 , c7.yyyy , c7.xxxx 
    add_pp r3.w , r6.wwww , r3.wwww 
    dp4 r2.w , r2 , c7.wwww 
    dp4 r1.z , r1 , c7.wwww 
    add_pp r1.w , r3.wwww , r2.wwww 
    add_pp r6.w , r1.zzzz , r1.wwww 
    texld r1 , v0.xyxx , s3 
    mad_pp r1.xyz , c8.xxxx , r1.wyzw , c8.yyyy 
    nrm_pp r5.xyz , v6 
    dp3_sat_pp r5.w , r1 , r5 
    nrm_pp r2.xyz , v2 
    add_pp r2.w , -r5.wwww , c8.zzzz 
    mad_pp r1.w , r5.wwww , c6.xxxx , c6.yyyy 
    rsq_pp r2.w , r2.wwww 
    mad_pp r1.w , r1.wwww , r5.wwww , c8.wwww 
    rcp_pp r2.w , r2.wwww 
    mad_pp r1.w , r1.wwww , r5.wwww , c6.zzzz 
    add_pp r4.xyz , r5 , r2 
    mul_pp r1.w , r2.wwww , r1.wwww 
    nrm_pp r3.xyz , r4 
    mad r4.xy , r1.wwww , c16.xxxx , c16.zyzw 
    dp3_sat_pp r4.z , r1 , r3 
    mul r3.xy , r4 , r4 
    dp3_sat_pp r1.y , r1 , r2 
    rcp r2.x , r3.xxxx 
    rcp r2.y , r3.yyyy 
    mad_pp r1.w , r1.yyyy , c6.xxxx , c6.yyyy 
    add_pp r1.z , -r1.yyyy , c8.zzzz 
    mad_pp r1.w , r1.wwww , r1.yyyy , c8.wwww 
    rsq_pp r1.z , r1.zzzz 
    mad_pp r1.w , r1.wwww , r1.yyyy , c6.zzzz 
    rcp_pp r1.y , r1.zzzz 
    add r1.z , r2.xxxx , c15.zzzz 
    mul_pp r1.w , r1.wwww , r1.yyyy 
    mul r1.z , r1.zzzz , c15.wwww 
    mad r1.xy , r1.wwww , c16.xxxx , c16.yzzw 
    add r1.w , -r2.yyyy , c6.wwww 
    mul r1.xy , r1 , r1 
    mul r1.w , r1.zzzz , r1.wwww 
    rcp r1.x , r1.xxxx 
    rcp r1.y , r1.yyyy 
    mul r1.z , r1.wwww , c16.wwww 
    add r1.w , -r1.xxxx , c6.wwww 
    mul r1.w , r1.zzzz , r1.wwww 
    add r1.z , -r6.zzzz , c5.xxxx 
    texld r3 , v0.xyxx , s2 
    mad_pp r4.w , r3.wwww , r1.zzzz , c4.xxxx 
    mul r3.w , r1.wwww , c16.wwww 
    add_pp r6.z , -r4.wwww , c8.zzzz 
    add r1.z , r1.yyyy , c15.zzzz 
    rcp_pp r1.w , r6.zzzz 
    mad r6.y , r1.zzzz , -c15.wwww , c15.xxxx 
    mul_pp r1.w , r1.wwww , c12.wwww 
    pow r2.z , r4.zzzz , r1.wwww 
    add r2.w , r1.wwww , c8.zzzz 
    mul_pp r1 , r6.wwww , c0.xyzz 
    mul r2.w , r2.zzzz , r2.wwww 
    mul_sat r2.w , r2.wwww , c17.zzzz 
    mul_pp r4.z , r4.wwww , r4.wwww 
    mul r2 , r1 , r2.wwww 
    mad_pp r6.w , r4.wwww , -r4.zzzz , c8.zzzz 
    add_pp r5.xy , -r6.wwww , c15 
    mul_pp r4 , r3.xyzz , c3.xyzz 
    mad_sat r5.y , r5.yyyy , r3.wwww , r5.xxxx 
    add_pp r3 , r4 , c8.yyyy 
    mul r2 , r2 , r5.yyyy 
    mad r3 , r6.yyyy , r3 , c8.zzzz 
    mul_sat_pp r5.z , r5.zzzz , c17.wwww 
    mul r3 , r2 , r3 
    texld r2 , v1.xyxx , s4 
    mul_pp r1 , r1 , r4 
    mul_pp r1 , r6.zzzz , r1 
    mul_pp r1 , r6.wwww , r1 
    mul r3 , r3 , r2.wwww 
    mul_pp r1 , r1 , c11.wwww 
    mul_pp r2.w , r5.wwww , r5.zzzz 
    mad_pp r1 , r1 , r2.xxxx , r3 
    mad oC0 , r1 , r2.wwww , r0 
    else
    [b]mov oC0 , r0 [/b]
    endif
    
    [/size]
    There are a few like this in the HDR tests.
     
  17. Xmas

    Xmas Porous
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    That is indeed quite a big if.
     
  18. KimB

    Legend

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    My, that if statement can conceivably skip most of the shader.

    Edit:
    Doh! I blame my missing the reply on an officemate to whom I explained the issue.
     
  19. ERK

    ERK
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    Sorry... Could somebody please remind me, do G70-class chips use _pp?
    Thanks,
    ERK
     
  20. KimB

    Legend

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    Yes. But the performance difference remains much smaller than it was for the NV3x. All NV4x (G7x-included) still gain from reduced register pressure, and also have the capability to execute partial precision normalization for free.
     
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