French lawmakers overwhelmingly back veil ban
- Thread starter Natoma
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mboeller said:
And I bet it those laws will be repelled once they are brought before the constitutional court for that very reason.By the way, that "ban" only applies to teachers, not students.
I agree thought that this is kinda hard to justify in a country (or more specifically in Bavaria, where I live) in which it's perfectly okidoki to have crucifxes on the wall in every classrom, every court room and every public office room - a country where the state finances religious education, collects church tax and nuns and priests are permitted to teach. Oh well, at least they have to stick to a curriculum.
Not true. A few years ago the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Supreme Court) decided that christian crosses were to be banned from classroom walls (before there was even a law in Bavaria that required a cross in every classroom).mboeller said:
A public school should not be religious, neither through symbols on the walls nor through teachers.
Oh, please. We're talking about what teachers may or may not do in their job at a public institution. It's not like freedom of religion is at risk. There are several jobs where it's impossible to wear a veil or a scarf, or a cross around your neck, for that matter. Or where a muslim can't roll out his prayer rug and pray towards Mecca.
Xmas said:
That's not true. Nothing was banned. The Bavarian state can still mandate a crucifix in every classroom. The court decision simply gave parents the right to file a complaint and have the cross temporarily taken off the wall while their child is in class.
That rarely happens because only a tiny majority is giving a hoot about religion in Germany and it's just not worth the hassle. Most Germans are so incredibly apathetic (if not outright atheistic) about religion and got so used to state-church entanglement that they simply DON'T CARE.
Christian symbols are so frequent around here that the brain simply ignores them, kinda like you ignore litter on the streets.
THe_KELRaTH
Regular
If you allow religion full freedom it has a tendancy to become fanatic - and I'm not just refering to Muslim, Hindu etc. You only have to go back a few 100 yrs in history and see what's been done in the name of western religions.
Whats next - none of us can work on Friday's till Sunday because it upsets the Jewish faith or no more eating beef steaks as the cow is sacred, and lets not forget the human and animal sacrifices either.
Basically you cannot allow freedom of religion as each one includes too many oddball ideas.
In western society there are places of worship that ppl can use if they want to and of course there is your home - but even then it must still conform within the countrys' laws.
Whats next - none of us can work on Friday's till Sunday because it upsets the Jewish faith or no more eating beef steaks as the cow is sacred, and lets not forget the human and animal sacrifices either.
Basically you cannot allow freedom of religion as each one includes too many oddball ideas.
In western society there are places of worship that ppl can use if they want to and of course there is your home - but even then it must still conform within the countrys' laws.
In Belgium, the current policy from the ministy of education pretty much is "We don't care what your establishement does regarding those things. Enforce the rules you wish, but just don't get us in trouble". This means many schools do not tolerate them, but most still do.
Such problems could happen, and did happen once recently IIRC, in the case of an establishement having an extremely high percantage of muslims suddenly deciding to go against all religious signs, or ones in particuliar.
In the case of the school I'm going at, several other rules exist, which would for example make certain muslim clothes unacceptable. This includes a "nothing on the head, hats or whatnot" rule, and certain other minor things. Amusingly, and as strange as it always seems to me, those rules ARE enforced, even for clothes which are absolutely meaningless and inoffensive, they often are only simple fashion choices.
Uttar
Such problems could happen, and did happen once recently IIRC, in the case of an establishement having an extremely high percantage of muslims suddenly deciding to go against all religious signs, or ones in particuliar.
In the case of the school I'm going at, several other rules exist, which would for example make certain muslim clothes unacceptable. This includes a "nothing on the head, hats or whatnot" rule, and certain other minor things. Amusingly, and as strange as it always seems to me, those rules ARE enforced, even for clothes which are absolutely meaningless and inoffensive, they often are only simple fashion choices.
Uttar
THe_KELRaTH said:
It's interesting to note that Xian fundamentalism is pretty much an exclusive North American phenomenon while in Germany, a country with rather strong church-state entanglement, Xianity has been of full retreat for decades.
I think that strict separation might actually be the cause of fundamentalism. If the church/churches enjoy special benefits granted by the state then they will turn mainstream and compliant and will be careful not to endager their preferred status by preaching fundy BS.
In the US on the other hands the religous organisations have to compete with each other for idiots to turn into followers because that's where their funds come from. They have to be as intrusive as possible into their followers lifes in order to bind them closely. They have to encourage fanaticism and persecution paranoia. That's exactly what is happening in the US with the rapidly growing fundy protestant movement.
A lot of you have not lived in France, so its always easier to critique.
One of the big issues over there is the loss of cultural heritage in favor of immigrant algerians. I must admit, I see the problem daily when im over there, and frankly I agree with them.
Most Frenchies are progressive and even though catholicism is still a large cultural force, many practising French are atheists fundamentally. So when you have a large migration of Arabs from a country where a war was fought... Who have a different religion, different work ethic/style of life, and move into suburbs, make no attempt at adapting to French lifestyle, and essentially live off state welfare... Then its sorta obvious theres going to be a problem.
Outright religious statement shouldn't be allowed in public schools, (perhaps in student run clubs), but not generally. Would you allow me to prance around naked b/c my religion dictated that to me?
One of the big issues over there is the loss of cultural heritage in favor of immigrant algerians. I must admit, I see the problem daily when im over there, and frankly I agree with them.
Most Frenchies are progressive and even though catholicism is still a large cultural force, many practising French are atheists fundamentally. So when you have a large migration of Arabs from a country where a war was fought... Who have a different religion, different work ethic/style of life, and move into suburbs, make no attempt at adapting to French lifestyle, and essentially live off state welfare... Then its sorta obvious theres going to be a problem.
Outright religious statement shouldn't be allowed in public schools, (perhaps in student run clubs), but not generally. Would you allow me to prance around naked b/c my religion dictated that to me?
Humus said:
It's not that easy. There are absolute limits to one's general freedom of speech. Grievous insults, racism, libel etc can all be prosecuted in most western states. And then there are further limits that are imposed in particular situations, like school or court. You can't just say what you want at any one time.
Freedom of religion goes a long way but again it is not absolute. You'll find that many more people will find your 'Jesus saves' T-shirt acceptable than something depicting a satanic ritual. But you don't need to go to such extremes to find objectionable content. For instance, imams in some strains of islam somehow have the impression that the Quran orders them to preach that homosexuals are lower than pigs and deserve death. Such statements are really not compatible with a modern society and should not be protected by freedom of religion.
There's something to be said for not leaving room for interpretation in what is acceptable and what not in a school situation, but instead to keep the playing ground level and to say this is simply not the place to advertise your religion.
How does wearing a burqua automatically become associated with preaching aloud to students, teachers, etc, that "homosexuals are worse than pigs and deserve death"? I'll tell you why, because certain people carry prejudicial, no, outright racist views of what people who wear said clothing believe. Most members of the Klu Klux Klan, and a good share of Neo Nazis profess themselves to be Christian, but inferring from this that anyone who wears a cross wants to exterminate the Jews, or put African Americans back into slavery would rightly be considered ludicrous and assinine. But for some reason when those in question are immigrants from the Middle East this line of thinking suddenly becomes perfectly acceptable.
Clashman said:
True, although many atheists do in fact associate christians with some of the more intolerant expressions that are being put forth in the name of the Bible. But that's really not the point. The point is that there are limits to religious expression in general. And then there are further limits imposed depending on particular environments, like a school for instance. You don't need to associate burqas with hate to have the opinion that they are out of place in a learning environment. Non-verbal communication like facial expressions is essential in a normal student-teacher relationship. As is being able to verify the student's identity at a test.
THe_KELRaTH
Regular
Oh.. and be careful what you say about the Koran in this public forum as any blasphemy (even though it may not be classified as Blasphemy in Western Society) = DEATH
THe_KELRaTH
Regular
Heathen said:
You must be exceptionally touchy to find an insult.
Maybe you're not aware that in UK we have had ppl who have spent much of their life under police protection due to Death Squads due to writing about the Koran. Salman Rushdie was a high profile example in UK but there are plenty more examples: Taslima Nasrin, a Bangladeshi feminist novelist was also accused of blaspheming the Koran and now is in hiding (in Sweden) because of the death sentence.
There's plenty more examples.... http://www.ucanews.com/~ucasian/our/pa9941.htm
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7060372^1702,00.html
Quote: Pakistan's blasphemy laws have been sharply criticised by both international and Pakistani human rights organisations. A charge can be laid by anyone who simply accuses another of blasphemy. No evidence is required and the onus is often put on the accused to prove his or her innocence. All three were in prison awaiting trial on blasphemy charges, which carry the death penalty
Moving away from the Koran I used to live near Sloane Square in London. I would regularily have drinks with a group of 30 soldiers from the Chelsea Barracks - one day they never came to the pub again as they had all been blown up by an IRA bomb outside the barracks - all in the name of religion.
I don't find insult with what you said it's what's driving it. As I said try to show at least some understanding before you judge and insult. Do a bit of reading into the Quran and see what it actually says.
I'm well aware of those situations and for record the UK has come under attack by both local and international human rights organistaions, it proves very little.
And a friend was killed by the IRA, so what? Besides I seriously doubt it's got anything to do with religion anymore. More to do with politics and the fact they don't know how to stop.
I'm well aware of those situations and for record the UK has come under attack by both local and international human rights organistaions, it proves very little.
And a friend was killed by the IRA, so what? Besides I seriously doubt it's got anything to do with religion anymore. More to do with politics and the fact they don't know how to stop.
Heathen said:
It's an oversimplification to say that A) Pakistan has been criticized for HR violations and B) the UK has had the same so therefore C) Pakistan == UK. There are degrees of gray, with a vast differential between the poles. The Maze hunger strike, as poorly as it was handled, is not equivalent to a heresy inquisition.
THe_KELRaTH said:
Really? Is it in the democracies in the west you find the fundamentalists, or is it in the dictatorships in the middle-east?
Sweden has been one of the religiously free countries a long time, and we're among the most atheistic and agnostic people in the world. Probably more so than China or Russia, despite communists banning religious practice.
THe_KELRaTH said:
Why is there always a "next"?
What you're talking isn't religious freedom, rather the opposite. The right to exercise also includes a right to abstain from religion. Just because the jews find it nice to take friday off doesn't mean every else must.
Fred said:
Why is the loss of cultural heritage even a problem? Life goes on, society change. You can't stop progress and you can't halt the globalisation process. Get used to it. Now if americans are getting a bad name for arrogance, then french people are getting their bad name for silly pride cultural heritage and language in ways that just freaks the rest of the world off. Seriously.
Culture varies with time. Culture should be naturally selected by the people, by their choises in everyday's life, and not by some commitee of bureaucrats. Same with language. It should develop with people, not by directions from a commitee.
Fred said:
Oh please. Find a real world example. Wearing a cross or scarf is whole different thing and does in no way disturb anyone else.