French lawmakers overwhelmingly back veil ban

[Clashman]

Yeah, so what? I'm sure plenty of your parents forced you to wear pants, (and dresses for the ladies), until it was "normal" for you to want to wear them, too. Does that mean that your parents are now forcing you against your will to wear pants, and the government should step in to keep you from wearing them? Or is it just that you've accepted it as a cultural norm, and would find any attempt to insinuate that you were being forced to wear them as ludicrous.

Just thought that might put things slightly into perspective. Not saying that wearing a burqua is right or wrong, but that to many it's just an accepted form of dress.

 

[London Geezer]

Yeah, so what? I'm sure plenty of your parents forced you to wear pants, (and dresses for the ladies), until it was "normal" for you to want to wear them, too. Does that mean that your parents are now forcing you against your will to wear pants, and the government should step in to keep you from wearing them? Or is it just that you've accepted it as a cultural norm, and would find any attempt to insinuate that you were being forced to wear them as ludicrous.

Just thought that might put things slightly into perspective. Not saying that wearing a burqua is right or wrong, but that to many it's just an accepted form of dress.

Oh yeah i completely agree, and that's why i said i have conflicting opinions myself... More towards the "NO to imposing laws" way though... Of course imposing laws are needed sometimes, but in this case it just looks weird. I'm sure individual schools can work around the "problem" of the few completely-covered-girls, as i'm sure they could work around the problem of barely-covered-ones too (In Italy there is no law on uniforms, and when i was there you could see some extreme fashion views in schools...).

 

[Simon F]

The problem is that France is one of two nations in the world (the other being Turkey) which makes it a point of state policy to discourge religious practice, in particular that of minority religions (laicism). In the area controlled by the regime in Ankara indigenous Christians, for example, are not allowed to repair their houses of worship,

My sister- and brother-in-law, both Turkish, spent quite some restoring a church in Turkey and were funded by the local council.

 

[epicstruggle]

i dont agree with your analogy there clashman. Again, what they are trying to do in their schools is make every student just a plain ordinary french student. And not a jewish french student. Or a muslim french student. Its weird, but I can see their point. They are not forcing you to stop being religious, they are only forcing you not to be religious in school. And its not like you cant keep you faith in your heart while your in school.

Neither a burqa/veil/cap/cross/other are required to be a follower of their particular religion. So please dont accuse this law of forcing anyone to give up their religion. If I remember correctly a sikh sued to beable to carry his knife (kirpan) to school. The courts denied his claim. Now do you think that Sikhs should be able to carry knifes to school, even if its part of their religion. Its a tough call but for public safety id have to go with the courts on this one. Outside of school they can wear their knives.

later,
epic

 

[L233]

Hes not trying to force anyone to worship any particular religion, he just wants some way of allowing students/schools/teachers to bring in religious teachings into schools. Things like allowing students to say a prayers in public functions, or allowing students to form religious clubs. Whats the big deal in allowing that, we have gay clubs why not christian/muslim/hindu clubs in school too.

Oh boy, you really fell for the paranoid ravings of the right-wing agitators.

In the USA, people are permitted to say prayers in public functions and students are allowed to form religious clubs. What's not allowed is people abusing state property to shove their religion down other people's throats by errecting Ten Commandment monuments in court houses or putting up "In God We Trust" posters in class rooms or introducing mandatory morning prayers and stuff like that.

The way church-state separation is handled in the USA seems extremely common sense to me. That's probably why a big share of the US population wants to do away with it.

 

[London Geezer]

I think that in the end, i'm not as religious as those Big-Cross-Jewish-Cap-Veil-Burka-wearing kids out there so i'm not sure i can have an objective opinion on the matter.

And i'm sure this applies to many others around here.

In the end, Epic, one's religion can't really be "switched off". Although i'm not religious, i believe in certain things and i don't usually "switch my beliefs off" depending on the situation. However, on the other hand, i don't go around having to show everyone what these beliefs are either. See, contrasting opinions within myself...

Time for my medication i guess......

 

[epicstruggle]

Hes not trying to force anyone to worship any particular religion, he just wants some way of allowing students/schools/teachers to bring in religious teachings into schools. Things like allowing students to say a prayers in public functions, or allowing students to form religious clubs. Whats the big deal in allowing that, we have gay clubs why not christian/muslim/hindu clubs in school too.

Oh boy, you really fell for the paranoid ravings of the right-wing agitators.

In the USA, people are permitted to say prayers in public functions and students are allowed to form religious clubs. What's not allowed is people abusing state property to shove their religion down other people's throats by errecting Ten Commandment monuments in court houses or putting up "In God We Trust" posters in class rooms or introducing mandatory morning prayers and stuff like that.

The way church-state separation is handled in the USA seems extremely common sense to me. That's probably why a big share of the US population wants to do away with it.

Not sure where you see me advocating forcing religion down a students throat. But to my knowledge students are not allowed to say prayers in public events, like football games, coaches cant say a quick prayer anymore (like this is really forcing someone to become a christian). I remember reading about student not being allowed to have god in their valedictorian speeches. I have no problem with some religion in school, as long as different religions are shown and no one is forced to "learn/join". Maybe we will bring some morals into these students.

later,
epic

 

[mboeller]

Wearing a veil is about to be restricted in germany for certain groups like teachers, too, because it is seen as an expression of sympathy with extremist islam.

Uhm, no. It has nothing to do with "extremist islam". It's just that religion and state should be separate, and public schools are institutions of the state.

I don't agree with you here. In germany they only ban islamic symbols like the veil, but all other religious symbols are still allowed. So IMHO here in germany this is some form of "religious rassism". In Germany a lot of conservative politicians are even proud to speak open about the fact that they treat muslims different than other religions. So I'm curious how the outcome is this time. Last time when something like this happened the outcome was rather unpleasent to say the least. AND; this things always starts with small measures, so don't say "well only teachers are affected and not other people". Today it affects the teachers tomorrow....we don't know yet.

 

[epicstruggle]

Wearing a veil is about to be restricted in germany for certain groups like teachers, too, because it is seen as an expression of sympathy with extremist islam.

Uhm, no. It has nothing to do with "extremist islam". It's just that religion and state should be separate, and public schools are institutions of the state.

I don't agree with you here. In germany they only ban islamic symbols like the veil, but all other religious symbols are still allowed. So IMHO here in germany this is some form of "religious rassism". In Germany a lot of conservative politicians are even proud to speak open about the fact that they treat muslims different than other religions. So I'm curious how the outcome is this time. Last time when something like this happened the outcome was rather unpleasent to say the least. AND; this things always starts with small measures, so don't say "well only teachers are affected and not other people". Today it affects the teachers tomorrow....we don't know yet.

Isnt scientolagy (the crap that it is) also a big no-no in germany.

epic

 

[London Geezer]

That can only be a good thing... With all due respect to anyone believing in Scientology.... errrr....

 

[THe_KELRaTH]

Well I do believe that this a good idea and hope it becomes a law in UK too.
The amount of crap that goes on in the name of religion is just plain stupid - it makes the human race look so mentally backward - even single cell organisms don't kill each other in the name of a religion. Whats even worse is that when you break them all down there's not a great deal of difference.

One thing that has always niggled me was when I got my 1st motorbike, (a Yamaha FS1E DX for those that remember!). While it was great to have the one thing I really didnt like was having to wear a helmet as I found it almost clostraphobic - but the law is the law so.....

But at the same time a new law was passed that allowed Sikhs to be exempt because of their religeous apparel - the turban.
Now common sense would say "it's a safety measure and if you don't want to wear the helmet then you just can't use a motorbike on a public road" or "scrap the law altogether and let everybody wear what that want to" - but whatever you do DONT descriminate.

I could go on about areas like Little Bombay (a part of London where the English is now the 2nd Language) like many other pocket communities up n down UK.

 

[London Geezer]

I could go on about areas like Little Bombay (a part of London where the English is now the 2nd Language) like many other pocket communities up n down UK.

Then we should take into account all the areas where english is 2nd or 3rd language.... Little Istanbul, Little Athens.......

And that's not even counting parts where English has progressed (REgressed?) into some kind of incomprehensible slang-jamaican-cockney kind of language... Go figure... I'm not english by birth and even i find it kinda icky...

 

[V3]

Again, what they are trying to do in their schools is make every student just a plain ordinary french student. And not a jewish french student. Or a muslim french student.

Students need to know that there are Plain French students, Jewish French students or Muslim French students, etc understand their values, respect each others and able to see past these differences and recognise that they still share something in common that is being French and student. And able to work together.

If the students can't do that than division and conflict bound to arise in the future.

 

[Natoma]

THe_KELRaTH,

While I share your views on religion and how it holds us as a species back in general, many people do believe strongly in their particular religion, and I don't see any reason to try and stop them. I grew up in the Christian faith, very deeply so (though I became atheist once I began examining the christian faith in detail, but that is another story. ) so I have a pretty good handle on how people in religious circles feel. People believe in religion for myriad reasons. Comfort about the after life, comfort about their current lives, support, or simply believe that there is something greater than themselves somewhere out there looking out for them.

Here in the US, we disagree over religious differences all the time, but we still respect those differences and generally allow freedom of religious expression.

What makes me more upset than anything else is that there is a long, dirty history in much of Europe comprised of anti-muslim laws, edicts, and governmental behavior. This law, sadly, continues in that line imo.


epicstruggle,

Say what you will about "integrating" the muslim population in with the "French" population, but really, what are they supposed to do? Will they become "French" because they no longer outwardly express their islam-ness? Is "French" a christian thing only? Jewish thing? Atheist? I can't say I understand exactly what you mean in that regard.

For instance, here in America, there are millions of sub cultures that make up the "whole" of this country, yet no one is forced to conform to any one particular religion. Yes everyone has to know English for the most part, but your religious freedoms are held up. Yet, we're all still Americans. So I think the reasoning that this is being done for "unity" or whatever is spurious at best.


V3,

Agreed

 

[London Geezer]

I grew up in the Christian faith, very deeply so (though I became atheist once I began examining the christian faith in detail, but that is another story. )

*Raises hand* ME TOO!! :?

 

[THe_KELRaTH]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,87951,00.html

AND every Terrorist, Bank Robber, Drugs Smuggler etc etc is backing her all the way
You think these people came to the west for a better way of life but the reality is they want our values removed and their 3rd world values put in place.

 

[L233]

Isnt scientolagy (the crap that it is) also a big no-no in germany.

Just as any other anti-democratic, borderline criminal, defamatory, brain-washing organisation that tries to gain power by infiltrating public offices and by building an economic power base using questionable methods.

What happened was that some states in Germany refuse to hire Scientologists for public service just like they refuse to hire Nazis and Stalinists (or any other non-democratic type of socialists). Furthermore, companies that are mere fronts for the Church of Scientology won't get any state contracts.

The principal idea here is that the state does not have to embrace movements or persons who are bent to abolish the state and its democratic principles.

You have to understand that Germany has made some rather horrid experiences in its course of history, one of them being fascists taking over by using the democratic process and democratic institutions.

That's why there are safeguards in place that might seem somewhat harsh to Americans - but for me its rather that than seeing jackboots marching through Warsaw once again.

 

[Humus]

Humus, Im curious what makes our views right and the french wrong. If their people/legislature feel they no longer want any religious identity in school, who is to say they are wrong for it.

The french view is wrong cause it violates the human rights of freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Isn't that why you have that democracy vs. republic in your sig? You don't like how the majority can rid the rights of the minority in a democracy, while in a republic the majority can never deny you your rights. At least according to the older definitions of the words. Constitution comes first, majority second. Otherwise we may get the situation of where two wolves and a sheep vote what to have for dinner.

I cant believe Im defending the french, but what the law is trying to do is make sure that students can learn without their religious views effecting other students. I like the idea of children not knowing who have similar religious views as they do instead concentrating on liking each other for other values. Hope it makes sense.

Why shouldn't people be able to affect each other's views? Isn't that the whole point of open debate and freedom of speech?

 

[Humus]

At the other end of the scale it can easily be seen as religious persecution.

I dont know if it goes that far. Its not like they are finding all the muslims/christians/hindus/... and telling them not to worship or else. They can still worship in their homes, churches, mosques, temples, and _just about_ everywhere else.

Why shouldn't people be able to pray everywhere? If someone wants to pray in school, that's fine, as long as he's not forcing anyone else to participate. If people's religious actions are public, it's demystified and people are more likely to understand and accept each other.

I think people in france want their citizens to be French first and muslim/hindu/jew/christian/... second. I think that makes sense.

What's first and what's second should be up to the individual to decide himself. I wouldn't want anyone else to decide for me that I'm Swede first: I personally find my nationality highly irrelevant.

 

[Humus]

At one end i think it is right not to impose one's own religion on others in public places, it would be nice if people were to meet and exchange ideas without the need to know or show their religion.

I don't see how wearing a scarf, praying in public, or anything of that sort can be viewed as impose one's religion on others. If I wear a t-shirt with "Jesus saves", am I then forcing you to become a christian? No, I'm merely expressing my views. If I wear a cross around my neck, am I then forcing my religion on anyone? No, I'm just expressing my sympathy with christianity. If I wear a scarf, am I then forcing my religion on anyone? No, I'm just expressing my sympathy with Islam. All this is protected under the freedom of religion and freedom of speech and should not be restricted. It would be a whole different thing if someone was forcing everyone to wear a cross or scarf at school. That in itself is a violation of those freedoms and should not be allowed. But expressing your views by your own free will should never be denied.