French lawmakers overwhelmingly back veil ban

N

Natoma

Veteran
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4231153/

France’s lower house of parliament voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to ban students from wearing Islamic head scarves and other religious apparel in public schools.

The classroom ban, which also applies to Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses, was approved 494-36. In early March, the measure will go to the Senate, where there is little opposition.

The measure was expected to take effect in September. Applying the law could be the real test: Critics say it’s too vague, will create chaos in the classroom, and will inflame anti-French feelings among the nation’s large Muslim minority.
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I can't for the life of me understand what they're doing over there. Why would anyone vote to ban people from expressing their religiousity in schools, as long as it's not sanctioned by the government? This really strikes me as backwards, especially since many French lecture us on how progressive they are. :?

I'm nowhere close to being a religious person, but geez this goes way too far imo. Despite my personal feelings towards religion in general, I can't agree with this law in any way shape or form.
 
some of the issues that brought this on are quite interesting. How do you integrate a large minority with the country's culture. If they havent done it in decades, do you start forcing them?? If your country is known for its separation of religion from the state, shouldnt they have a right to make ALL public institution religious-free?

All interesting things/issues. Will this spread further if their goals (making muslims integrate in the society) succeed? Will muslims still find france a haven from their home countries?

Its quite easy for us to knock what their doing, but lets look at why they did it too. Im sure they arent actively trying to make little muslim girls cry. This debate will eventually come to the many other countries, too.

later,
epic
 
France may well be more left leaning than the United States as a whole. However, they elected Chirac, who is about the French equivalent of Bush, (and who was largely supported by the left in a runoff election in order to keep the French equivalent of Pat Buchanon from being elected). Although oddly enough in this case, Chirac is trying to force religion out of the public while Bush has tried to push it into the public.
 
Clashman said:
Although oddly enough in this case, Chirac is trying to force religion out of schools while Bush is trying to force them in.
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Hes not trying to force anyone to worship any particular religion, he just wants some way of allowing students/schools/teachers to bring in religious teachings into schools. Things like allowing students to say a prayers in public functions, or allowing students to form religious clubs. Whats the big deal in allowing that, we have gay clubs why not christian/muslim/hindu clubs in school too.

later,
epic
 
epicstruggle said:
some of the issues that brought this on are quite interesting. How do you integrate a large minority with the country's culture. If they havent done it in decades, do you start forcing them?? If your country is known for its separation of religion from the state, shouldnt they have a right to make ALL public institution religious-free?

All interesting things/issues. Will this spread further if their goals (making muslims integrate in the society) succeed? Will muslims still find france a haven from their home countries?

Its quite easy for us to knock what their doing, but lets look at why they did it too. Im sure they arent actively trying to make little muslim girls cry. This debate will eventually come to the many other countries, too.

later,
epic
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This law targets everyone epic, not just muslims. Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike can no longer wear religious apparel to school. I think that's not particularly good.
 
epicstruggle said:
Clashman said:
Although oddly enough in this case, Chirac is trying to force religion out of schools while Bush is trying to force them in.
Click to expand...
Hes not trying to force anyone to worship any particular religion, he just wants some way of allowing students/schools/teachers to bring in religious teachings into schools. Things like allowing students to say a prayers in public functions, or allowing students to form religious clubs. Whats the big deal in allowing that, we have gay clubs why not christian/muslim/hindu clubs in school too.

later,
epic
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No one keeps religious groups from forming at high schools epic. In fact, many high schools have religious clubs.

Students should be allowed to form religious clubs all they like, just as everyone else can. The point is to let them assemble after school hours, not during school hours. That way it's a completely private matter. If you want to attend, you can. But not during school hours when you're supposed to be learning. That goes for any type of extracurricular club at a public school.

Prayer in school is another subject though. I would be for a moment of silence in which you could think to yourself, say a prayer quietly to yourself, or sleep if you want. Whatever. But the teachers should not lead in any particular religion. That would be crossing the line.
 
The problem is that France is one of two nations in the world (the other being Turkey) which makes it a point of state policy to discourge religious practice, in particular that of minority religions (laicism). In the area controlled by the regime in Ankara indigenous Christians, for example, are not allowed to repair their houses of worship, and stating an ethno-cultural identity their than that of the dominant ethnicity can get you sent to maximum security prison ASAP. And don't even dare attempt to criticize the government's "view" of history, not if you ever want to see daylight again.

Yet you hear almost no hand wringing about that, but plenty on France's and the USA's misadventures. I wonder why...
 
Natoma said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4231153/
I can't for the life of me understand what they're doing over there. Why would anyone vote to ban people from expressing their religiousity in schools, as long as it's not sanctioned by the government? This really strikes me as backwards, especially since many French lecture us on how progressive they are. :?
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The problem is that the head scarf is only the beginning. Some young women have taken to wearing chadors at school, which cover the entire face and only leave a small hole at eye level. Then there are the burqas which sometimes hardly even allow eye contact. Not being able to see a student's face is not particularly conducive to a free exchange of ideas in a lecture. Aside from that, there is concern that many of these women wear such expressions of islam culture because of pressure from home, not personal conviction. Giving such women a fair chance at a normal education, integration with regular western pre-adult life, as well as a break from potential repression, and also trying to avoid the problems of the creation of monocultural schools where western children no longer feel comfortable, are all considerations in this vote. It is unfortunate but nonetheless fair that other less noticeable and dare I say repressive religious expressions should suffer equally.
 
This is a violation of freedom of religion IMHO. There's no need for it, and it will accomplish nothing. A similar ban in Turkey have accomplished nothing over the 80 years or so that it's been in place. A seculare state is not a state that discourages practice of religion, it's a state that's neutral on religion. You should have the freedom to express your views, be it through a cross, a stars, a scarf, or a printed t-shirt.

There was a similar debate in Sweden not too long ago which was started when two girls came to school in burqas. The discussion went into the usual paths, freedom of religion, oppression of women etc. The conclusion was different from the french though. Scarfs and anything at that level was never questioned, only burqas and similar that makes identification or participating in the education problematic. The finally decision was to let schools decide instead, but outright banning burqas was viewed as going too far.
 
Natoma said:
This law targets everyone epic, not just muslims. Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike can no longer wear religious apparel to school. I think that's not particularly good.
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It does target everyone, but your naive if you didnt see that all the debate was centered on muslim girls in school. Plain and Simple. They did have to make the law broad enough to ban all outward signs of religion, but make no mistake that they were really going after one religion.

later,
epic
 
Humus, Im curious what makes our views right and the french wrong. If their people/legislature feel they no longer want any religious identity in school, who is to say they are wrong for it. I dont agree with the law itself either, but why must we always force our views of life into every culture. Should we go into tribes in the amazon and make sure they arent violating any human rights??? I cant believe Im defending the french, but what the law is trying to do is make sure that students can learn without their religious views effecting other students. I like the idea of children not knowing who have similar religious views as they do instead concentrating on liking each other for other values. Hope it makes sense.

later,
epic
 
PC-Engine said:
Why is this any different from forcing students to wear school uniforms???
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Actually this is one reason why I do support the french in this, Im a big supporter in mandatory school uniforms. ;)

later,
epic
 
Heathen said:
At the other end of the scale it can easily be seen as religious persecution.
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I dont know if it goes that far. Its not like they are finding all the muslims/christians/hindus/... and telling them not to worship or else. They can still worship in their homes, churches, mosques, temples, and _just about_ everywhere else.

I think people in france want their citizens to be French first and muslim/hindu/jew/christian/... second. I think that makes sense.

later,
epic
 
Wearing a veil is about to be restricted in germany for certain groups like teachers, too, because it is seen as an expression of sympathy with extremist islam.
 
Barnabas said:
Wearing a veil is about to be restricted in germany for certain groups like teachers, too, because it is seen as an expression of sympathy with extremist islam.
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Uhm, no. It has nothing to do with "extremist islam". It's just that religion and state should be separate, and public schools are institutions of the state.
 
To be honest i don't know what to think.

At one end i think it is right not to impose one's own religion on others in public places, it would be nice if people were to meet and exchange ideas without the need to know or show their religion.

At the other end i think that "imposing" laws are just plain wrong.

Also, muslim women in this coutry at least are campaigning to clear up the Myth that "muslim women are forced to wear the veil", preaching it is their own choice. Personally i still think the whole idea of having to wear something to cover their heads is pushed by their parents from such a tender age, it is "normal" for them to "want to wear them". Not much different from "forcing" them in my opinion, if you know what i mean.
 
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