Formula 1 - The Eco Friendly Motorsport!

You want to punish Hamilton because he didn't confess and there's no evidence against him, so "he must be lying"?
yep, in a real world I bet that Hamilton knew. Does that makes him better?
Obviously, if one is a fan of him, as you :D

How about we put you in prison for a murder you didn't confess to? There's no evidence, and you'll deny it, but that just proves you're a liar as well as a murderer.
Are you denying the proof that whole team cheated, or just being angry that someone dislikes Hamilton and thinks that he is overhyped and tolerated?

Unlike that completely honest Alonso who cheats, tries to blackmail his boss, and then has to own up to his cheating when put into a corner.
I, personally, don't give a **** for Alonso.
Kimi is way better :LOL:

If there's one single person that's damaged McLaren this year, it's Alonso. What Coughlan did in concert with Stepney was bad enough, but at least they kept it quiet. What Alonso did has publicly unravelled McLaren's reputation, exposed the in-house personality problems, cost the team the championship and $100 million, damaged F1 as a whole.
Yep, stealing and lying AND being caught is wayyy more moral :???:

Besides - what would you do in place of Alonso - if being summoned in a sorta of court, with proves that you knew about that stolen info (I suppose there were emails or some kind of proves)?
 
yep, in a real world I bet that Hamilton knew. Does that makes him better?
Obviously, if one is a fan of him, as you :D

Are you denying the proof that whole team cheated, or just being angry that someone dislikes Hamilton and thinks that he is overhyped and tolerated?

I'm looking at the evidence we have. Emails and phone calls between Delarosa, Alonso, Coughlan and Stepney. You seem to think that because Alonso was cheating, then every other driver needs to be tarred with the same brush. You're just trying to pull Hamilton down to try and make Alonso look better. There's no evidence for it.

I, personally, don't give a **** for Alonso.
Kimi is way better :LOL:

You love Alonso, you want to marry Alonso. :LOL:

Yep, stealing and lying AND being caught is wayyy more moral :???:

Where's the evidence that Hamilton stole and lied about it? There isn't any. Hamilton's actions are just the same as someone who didn't steal anything and is telling the truth about it. Without evidence (even the sketchy circumstantial evidence that the FIA rely on) you can't claim he is just as guilty as Alosno who confessed his own cheating to the FIA and kept email evidence to prove it.

Besides - what would you do in place of Alonso - if being summoned in a sorta of court, with proves that you knew about that stolen info (I suppose there were emails or some kind of proves)?

You mean Alonso should be patted on the back because did the right thing after he was caught cheating? If he hadn't run his mouth off in anger in order to blackmail Dennis, he would have kept his mouth shut and kept on cheating. What a great guy.:rolleyes:
 
I agree, but seeing as there is no proof Hamilton was in the loop like Alonso, you cannot really take the points off him. Alonso directly implicated himself in the whole sordid affair.

If I was Ron I would've been pushing for him to be punished :LOL:

Actually, if it goes by the rule, when the team is stripped all of its point, the drivers will be automatically be stripped of the points too.

They were given immunity, because they gave evidence leading to the verdict. Reading the transcript Hamilton didn't provide any evidence, Alonso didn't testify and Pedro doesn't have any point to begin with.

If someone was to blame, I would blame Ron, because he didn't have control of the situation. I know its tough managing 1000 over people, but when you are facing these serious charges, he should have done more as the boss. I think he underestimated the whole thing.
 
Actually, if it goes by the rule, when the team is stripped all of its point, the drivers will be automatically be stripped of the points too.

They were given immunity, because they gave evidence leading to the verdict. Reading the transcript Hamilton didn't provide any evidence, Alonso didn't testify and Pedro doesn't have any point to begin with.

It's politics and money. The FIA didn't want to kill the interest in the championship battle, but once you got to the point of stripping Mclaren for "polluting" the sport, I don't see how you can let the drivers keep the points and continue racing with the "tainted" car.

If someone was to blame, I would blame Ron, because he didn't have control of the situation. I know its tough managing 1000 over people, but when you are facing these serious charges, he should have done more as the boss. I think he underestimated the whole thing.

I'm not sure I'd blame Dennis directly, as he didn't really know what was going on and you can't micromanage a company the size of McLaren, but in the end it is his responsibility that the processes broke down and they found themselves in this situation. I'm sure there's lot's of rules in McLaren about what is and isn't acceptable, but if your staff break the rules and hide it well, you're not going to know until it all hits the fan.

Two rogue employees and the world champion driver all disgruntled with their positions, all bending the rules and going beyond what most people would consider honest and honourable behaviour. The few people who knew bits of what was going on in Mclaren unwilling to stand up and shoot down what Alonso and Coughlan were doing, no one in Mclaren monitoring the drivers' email exchanges, no access to the phone records between Coughlan and Stepney, the sport-wide culture of team spying and rule-bending tacitly ignored for years by the FIA, etc. It all came together and dropped Dennis in the shit because his key staff and drivers were not behaving properly.

I've never been a big fan of Dennis, but I can sympathise with him having to clean up the mess not of his own making. He and his team have lost a lot of money and reputation, and there's no guarentee it's over yet. They will lose garage space, sponsorship, money, points, and may still have more blowback from this situation next year.
 
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aka lewis had the info too - wasnt it the case the alonso refused to share his data with lewis ?

ps: like dizietsma said ive been impressed with davidson as well it took him a hell of a long time to break into f1 it would be nice to see him get a great car

pps: if lewis was involved how many millionths of a second would it take alonso to decide to drop him in it ;)
 
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Super Aguri is one of my favourite teams. I love those crazy Japanese dudes, and Davidson has had some great drives this year. And who can forget Taku passing Alonso earlier this year? :)
 
Chuck Norris once picked up the 2007 Ferrari, carried it to the McLaren pits and drove it to win the 2007 championship for Ron Dennis. He then roundhouse kicked Max Mosely and made him cry like a big baby.

Sorry, Dr Evil's sig and a boring day at work made me do it .... :)
 
I'm not sure I'd blame Dennis directly, as he didn't really know what was going on
come on ... :rolleyes:
How on earth a driver (De la Rosa) can make a simulation with stolen info and no one will notice?! And Coughlan will say in Melburn (or whatever it was when he knew the pitstop strat for Ferari):
"hey, I had a dream last night, They'll make pitstops right at X round"

Yep, and a marmot with air gun is shooting from the roof :D
 
Super Aguri is one of my favourite teams. I love those crazy Japanese dudes, and Davidson has had some great drives this year. And who can forget Taku passing Alonso earlier this year? :)

Talking about cheaters, SA are the biggest, driving last years Honda car while customer chassis arnt legal this year.
 
Toro Rosso does it too, running RBR chassis. Spyker has complained to FIA. We'll see what happens.
 
come on ... :rolleyes:
How on earth a driver (De la Rosa) can make a simulation with stolen info and no one will notice?! And Coughlan will say in Melburn (or whatever it was when he knew the pitstop strat for Ferari):
"hey, I had a dream last night, They'll make pitstops right at X round"

Yep, and a marmot with air gun is shooting from the roof :D

Does the head of your company know exactly what you are doing when you do your job? Does he know what settings you use on your desktop PC, what words you use in your emails, what you say to people over the telephone, or what you do for every second of every day?

If you were sending or receiving company secrets using your personal mobile phone to another personal mobile phone owned by someone at another company, how would the head of your company know about it?

There's loads of stuff that goes on in every company that the boss at the top knows nothing about. It happens in business, the public sector, the police, the medical profession, the FBI, and everywhere you can think of. You hire people, you tell them what's acceptable, and then you trust them to behave that way. Until they break the rules and get caught, no one (least of all the person at the top of the company) knows about it. Usually it's small stuff, sometimes it's big stuff.

If you think otherwise, you've obviously never worked in any kind of organisation before.
 
Does the head of your company know exactly what you are doing when you do your job? Does he know what settings you use on your desktop PC, what words you use in your emails, what you say to people over the telephone, or what you do for every second of every day?

:rolleyes: Come on... you're telling me RD didn't have an idea what was going on in his company? If he didn't, he very well should have, period.

You can't be serious in comparing RD's organisation to that of the private sector etc... :oops:
 
:rolleyes: Come on... you're telling me RD didn't have an idea what was going on in his company? If he didn't, he very well should have, period.

You can't be serious in comparing RD's organisation to that of the private sector etc... :oops:

Are you telling me he knows exactly what of the hundreds of settings used on their simulator would be day to day, and would have suspicions about where those settings came from? Don't you think that would be down to the simulator engineers and performance analysts? Do you think McLaren is run like some kind of KGB outfit with everyone monitoring everyone else and all reporting to Ron?

If the FBI and the CIA get caught out by spies working in their own organisations for years on end, how do you expect the head of one company to keep track of everything a dishonest employee is doing? Even companies that log every single little thing down to the keypress don't double check everything that's ever happened until something goes wrong. It's simply not possible unless you have a whole second company to double check the first one. Even banks or security services, where exactly this kind of environment exists, get caught out by the dishonest employee who has learned the system and is deliberately trying to circumvent it.

It's also not the bosses job. They are supposed to govern how the whole company runs, and set up the framework for how the people beneath them do their jobs. They are not supposed to be checking over everything an employee does every day. You employed them in a job because you thought they could do the job without you having to watch over everything they do. Otherwise you might as well do it yourself. You don't know an employee has no integrity or honesty until they exhibit that.

Fact is, F1 is a small and rarified sport. People mix socially and information moves around. Staff moves from one team to another and takes skills, expertise and knowledge with them. Spying on your opponents and what they are doing has been accepted by the FIA for years on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis. Rules are bent as far as they can be, and sometimes more so.

Mclaren has a set of rules governing the behaviour of it's staff. Coughlan, DeLaRosa and Alonso broke those rules, and the system inside McLaren didn't catch them. It assumed them to be honourable and honest people until (as has been proved) they showed that they were not.

You could argue that the system did finally catch the cheats when Dennis found out and told Mosely, that the system only did work once Dennis was in the loop at that low a level. Dennis was not expecting it to be true because Alonso recanted his threats to Dennis, but it turned out that Alonso was lying about that too. The only way for Dennis to know about what was going on was the emails (which Alonso had hidden and only brought out to blackmail Dennis), and the mobile phone call records, which no one had access to until the Italian Police produced them as part of the ongoing sabotage investigation into Stepney.
 
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How come everyone seems to forget about the other time Mclaren actually raced in a Ferarri car......

when The Ferrari F1 team fired their entire pit crew ??

This announcement followed Ferrari’s decision to take advantage of the British government’s ‘Work for your Dole’ scheme and employ some Liverpudlian youngsters.

The decision to hire them was brought about by a recent documentary on how unemployed youths from Toxteth were able to remove a set of wheels in less than 6 seconds without proper equipment, whereas Ferrari’s existing crew could only do it in 8 seconds with millions of pounds worth of high tech equipment.

It was thought to be an excellent, bold move by the Ferrari management team as most races are won and lost in the pits, giving Ferrari an advantage over every other team.

However, Ferrari got more than they bargained for! At the crew’s first Practice session, not only was the scouse pit crew able to change all four wheels in under 6 seconds but, within 12 seconds, they had re-sprayed, re-badged and sold the car to the Mclaren team for 8 cases of Stella, a bag of weed and some photos of Coulthard’s bird in the shower.
 
At the crew’s first Practice session, not only was the scouse pit crew able to change all four wheels in under 6 seconds but, within 12 seconds, they had re-sprayed, re-badged and sold the car to the Mclaren team for 8 cases of Stella, a bag of weed and some photos of Coulthard’s bird in the shower.

LMAO :LOL:
 
Are you telling me he knows exactly what of the hundreds of settings used on their simulator would be day to day, and would have suspicions about where those settings came from? Don't you think that would be down to the simulator engineers and performance analysts? Do you think McLaren is run like some kind of KGB outfit with everyone monitoring everyone else and all reporting to Ron?

If the FBI and the CIA get caught out by spies working in their own organisations for years on end, how do you expect the head of one company to keep track of everything a dishonest employee is doing? Even companies that log every single little thing down to the keypress don't double check everything that's ever happened until something goes wrong. It's simply not possible unless you have a whole second company to double check the first one. Even banks or security services, where exactly this kind of environment exists, get caught out by the dishonest employee who has learned the system and is deliberately trying to circumvent it.

It's also not the bosses job. They are supposed to govern how the whole company runs, and set up the framework for how the people beneath them do their jobs. They are not supposed to be checking over everything an employee does every day. You employed them in a job because you thought they could do the job without you having to watch over everything they do. Otherwise you might as well do it yourself. You don't know an employee has no integrity or honesty until they exhibit that.

Fact is, F1 is a small and rarified sport. People mix socially and information moves around. Staff moves from one team to another and takes skills, expertise and knowledge with them. Spying on your opponents and what they are doing has been accepted by the FIA for years on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis. Rules are bent as far as they can be, and sometimes more so.

Mclaren has a set of rules governing the behaviour of it's staff. Coughlan, DeLaRosa and Alonso broke those rules, and the system inside McLaren didn't catch them. It assumed them to be honourable and honest people until (as has been proved) they showed that they were not.

You could argue that the system did finally catch the cheats when Dennis found out and told Mosely, that the system only did work once Dennis was in the loop at that low a level. Dennis was not expecting it to be true because Alonso recanted his threats to Dennis, but it turned out that Alonso was lying about that too. The only way for Dennis to know about what was going on was the emails (which Alonso had hidden and only brought out to blackmail Dennis), and the mobile phone call records, which no one had access to until the Italian Police produced them as part of the ongoing sabotage investigation into Stepney.

The problem with this scenario is that it does not match events. At the very start the impression was given that Coughlan and Stepney were rogue elements that were only out for their own personal gain by going behind their respective teams to another.

But then it came to light that Coughlan had been giving McLaren Stepney's assertions on the legality of Ferrari's car pre Australia. So the link was known to Ron et al that Mike Coughlan was doing more than just being a rogue opperative as Ron and team had said. That's the first crack that seems to be opening up more and more.

So, we know Ron knew about Coughlan and Stepney and knew they gained an advantage from that link by protesting successfully against Ferrari at the start of the year. So the "rogue employee" line does not ring true. However that is still not evidence that the 780 page dossier was used with Ron and senior managers knowledge.

There is a bit of a smoking gun though, even without all the emails. When Jonathan Neale talked to Coughlan in the aim of making him feel more of one of the team, for a total of one and a half hours and at the very end of this Coughlan tried to show him some diagrams. Neale told him to burn them. This is very interesting because Neale is not technical. So he obviously had some prior reservations about them and he knew why they should be destroyed. Neale is the Managing Director by the way. If he knew, then Ron knew that Coughlan had lots of paperwork from Ferrari. If the non technical MD knows that something is not right then the technical people who told him so and who were at his level or above would also know. A none technical person otherwise would suggest it be passed elsewhere for better comment.

So top management knew about all the documentation and I would imagine they felt it was a treasure trove. It seems the drivers knew about it to from the emails, so from top to bottom in the organisation this information was known and they were deciding how best to use it.

That's a long way from the "two rogue elements were doing it for their own personal gain" that was circulated to the general public when it first appeared on everyones scope.

Having read all that you probably think I think McLaren completely in the wrong, however I do not. I think they were playing by the unspoken rules but those unspoken rules were changed and they had to pay the price. Neither McLaren nor the FIA will ever admit to this though. That's why Ron said he would stomach the $100m for the good of the sport. What he actually means is to stomach it so his and other teams can learn how to behave in this post Spygate world.

Ferrari will have to be very careful though, they are under the same obligations and I would bet a lot of eyes are peering at them now.
 
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It's politics and money. The FIA didn't want to kill the interest in the championship battle, but once you got to the point of stripping Mclaren for "polluting" the sport, I don't see how you can let the drivers keep the points and continue racing with the "tainted" car.

Yep, I agree with you, I reckon McLaren should have been thrown out, out of the championship even if the drivers were able to keep the point. Because by that ruling they have an illegal car. Its a joke. Why on earth would they inspect the 2008 car for any advantages, but isn't doing a thing about this year car.

I'm not sure I'd blame Dennis directly, as he didn't really know what was going on and you can't micromanage a company the size of McLaren

Well I wouldn't blame him, if it wasn't raise to his attention. This problem was clearly brought to his attention, sometime ago. BTW I am not blaming the cheating on him. I am blaming him for McLaren getting caught. He could have play his card better.

, but in the end it is his responsibility that the processes broke down and they found themselves in this situation. I'm sure there's lot's of rules in McLaren about what is and isn't acceptable, but if your staff break the rules and hide it well, you're not going to know until it all hits the fan.

Two rogue employees and the world champion driver all disgruntled with their positions, all bending the rules and going beyond what most people would consider honest and honourable behaviour. The few people who knew bits of what was going on in Mclaren unwilling to stand up and shoot down what Alonso and Coughlan were doing, no one in Mclaren monitoring the drivers' email exchanges, no access to the phone records between Coughlan and Stepney, the sport-wide culture of team spying and rule-bending tacitly ignored for years by the FIA, etc. It all came together and dropped Dennis in the shit because his key staff and drivers were not behaving properly.

The emails was between Pedro and Coughlan. If the drivers knew, I am sure the engineers knew too. Those data are for engineers not drivers. The drivers knew about it just show how much the data has penetrated McLaren. I am sure the teams were asked to destroy all evidences and to keep quite. Alonso kept some for rainy days. Its too bad Alonso wasn't summon to give evidence, I am sure he would spill the bean.

I've never been a big fan of Dennis, but I can sympathise with him having to clean up the mess not of his own making. He and his team have lost a lot of money and reputation, and there's no guarentee it's over yet. They will lose garage space, sponsorship, money, points, and may still have more blowback from this situation next year.

Well considering the consequences, I still think he should cover up better. They would have gotten away with this, if it wasn't for Alonso having a bad day.
 
Well considering the consequences, I still think he should cover up better. They would have gotten away with this, if it wasn't for Alonso having a bad day.

Given how many actually knew about it and including Alonsos increasing unpopularity within the team and with Ron, who is to say not someone else would have spilled the beans in favour of imunity on the expense of Alonso (and costing him the championship), protecting a team, that in his eyes doesn't stand behind him anyway?

Alonso did the right thing in covering his own ass and you can't blame him for that.
 
Back to topic: BMW F1 team are looking for engineers for hybrid development, I guess the rest is also going the same path. So in a few years we'll see how it works out.
 
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