First Asus, now MSI.........
- Thread starter martrox
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DaveBaumann said:
Next week should be interesting. That would be a shame if that's the case. MSI produces more cards than Asus these days. Be another great feather to have in ATI's cap.
If this rumor proves true, I'd bet nVIDIA is taking it up the wazzoo and cut MSI one hell of a deal after all BS in the last ~18+ months.
I wonder if Jen Hsun offered the CEO of MSI something hallucinogenic to sway his decision.
Would be kinda silly for them NOT to. Same reason Asus and Gigabyte opened up--big companies gain little by being exclusive unless there ARE... how shall we say... "incentives" to compensate. I'd rather see them all opening up--makes the market overall more competitive, as well as "spicing" up general design complancency now and then by bringing across workable features from their other lines, and it will CERTAINLY make it easier for other IHV's to get in the game with more open partnerships available.
THe_KELRaTH
Regular
On the other hand there could be some good long term incentives being offered as Nvidia's No 1 exclusive manfacturer - especially as NV still sells the bulk of the mid range products.
bingo, if MSI makes the low-end OEM cards (I honestly don't know who did, so this is just conjecture) and NVIDIA threatened to move that somewhere else if MSI were to start making ATI cards, MSI would basically be hosed.THe_KELRaTH said:
Yes, well that falls under "incentive" as well. It's not like offering ATi cards would interfere with their ability to pump out as many low-end nVidia cards as they already do--they'd just be gaining flexibility to meet all the various customer demands. They'll still lean in the direction of what's most profitable, as pretty much all companies do.
AIBs have been much more interested in looking at the community debacles and internal problems of NVIDIA than NVIDIA itself it seems. AIBs switching does not surprise me at all; and once ATI will have the RV381, even if perhaps it won't be able to beat the NV42/NV43(?), then I suspect they may begin to consider dropping NVIDIA's low-end, too.
And if the biggest AIBs begin marketing ATI's low-end, I'd say that'd also be extremely negative for NVIDIA's brandname, compared to ATI's at least.
BTW, I wouldn't be surprised either if some other extremely NVIDIA-centric IHVs are considering ATI right now; Gainward, for example. Or at least, if they fail with the NV40, they'll consider it - very seriously.
Uttar
And if the biggest AIBs begin marketing ATI's low-end, I'd say that'd also be extremely negative for NVIDIA's brandname, compared to ATI's at least.
BTW, I wouldn't be surprised either if some other extremely NVIDIA-centric IHVs are considering ATI right now; Gainward, for example. Or at least, if they fail with the NV40, they'll consider it - very seriously.
Uttar
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
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tazdevl said:
Probably a combination of threats and money. That's Nvidia's style. It would have to have been something pretty amazing to stop a big OEM from getting a slice of the pie that all it's competitors think it's worth having.
However, this probably again shows that Nvidia is spending money in places were it should be making money, cutting down their already weak profit margins.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
Yup. Pretty interesting stuff. If this is true, MSI would be limiting their product portfolio but on the plus side they would have a pricing advantage over the competition based on volume. Be interesting to see if MSI ends up undercutting everyone's prices next quarter.
Don't you guys think you overestimating all this quite a bit?
After all, the major contracts nV could talk the AIBs into when they virtually had no other choice (about the year 2000 or so) are all coming to an end.
Creative was first IIRC to start selling ATi products albeit only in SE Asia and maintained nV chips in Europe and America. Guillemot/Hercules was another example, who had no other choice than to make their living with ATi after having pissed off nV with their acceptance of the Kyro Chip.
Now, MSI did it quite some time ago and produced large batches of OEM-ATi cards, Asus does it now, Gigabyte, who did it for quite some time are suddenly back with some nV cards in their portfolio....
I think that the market's just moving back where it came from since 1999. The monopoly is broken, nV has a great competitor and the AIBs are 'free' to choose and even combine their line of products from both IHVs 'cause there's no risk of being blackmailed anymore with 'unforeseeable shortages', like Guillemot/Hercules was being threatened with.
Competition is back
After all, the major contracts nV could talk the AIBs into when they virtually had no other choice (about the year 2000 or so) are all coming to an end.
Creative was first IIRC to start selling ATi products albeit only in SE Asia and maintained nV chips in Europe and America. Guillemot/Hercules was another example, who had no other choice than to make their living with ATi after having pissed off nV with their acceptance of the Kyro Chip.
Now, MSI did it quite some time ago and produced large batches of OEM-ATi cards, Asus does it now, Gigabyte, who did it for quite some time are suddenly back with some nV cards in their portfolio....
I think that the market's just moving back where it came from since 1999. The monopoly is broken, nV has a great competitor and the AIBs are 'free' to choose and even combine their line of products from both IHVs 'cause there's no risk of being blackmailed anymore with 'unforeseeable shortages', like Guillemot/Hercules was being threatened with.
Competition is back
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
Quasar said:Don't you guys think you overestimating all this quite a bit?
Competition is back
Well it is a big thing because we haven't had competition for a long time. Nvidia's important and valuable exclusive deals are breaking down.
It didn't happen when ATI had the 8500 range, it's only happening after a year of ATI being clearly miles ahead of Nvidia with the R3x0 series. It's a milestone.
The Baron said:
I don't know about that. Is it nvidia that sells the bulk of mid-range products, or the board manufacturers that sell the bulk of mid-range products that happen to have nvidia chips in them? Certainly the gpu manufacturers are going to have some influence on buying decisions, but would the distribution of mid-range gpus be different if the oem market had a much greater skew toward ATI vs nVidia?
Nite_Hawk
Quasar said:Don't you guys think you overestimating all this quite a bit?
After all, the major contracts nV could talk the AIBs into when they virtually had no other choice (about the year 2000 or so) are all coming to an end.
Creative was first IIRC to start selling ATi products albeit only in SE Asia and maintained nV chips in Europe and America. Guillemot/Hercules was another example, who had no other choice than to make their living with ATi after having pissed off nV with their acceptance of the Kyro Chip.
Now, MSI did it quite some time ago and produced large batches of OEM-ATi cards, Asus does it now, Gigabyte, who did it for quite some time are suddenly back with some nV cards in their portfolio....
I think that the market's just moving back where it came from since 1999. The monopoly is broken, nV has a great competitor and the AIBs are 'free' to choose and even combine their line of products from both IHVs 'cause there's no risk of being blackmailed anymore with 'unforeseeable shortages', like Guillemot/Hercules was being threatened with.
Competition is back
Competition is a good thing. However, you can't compare today to several years ago... why? Market dynamics have changed quite a bit. Look at volumes alone.
Nite_Hawk said:
You need to consider that MSI supplies many of the NV cards for other brands (eg: Creative) and/or NV OEM deals (eg: Dell), much like Sapphire supplies many of the ATI cards which are then packaged and sold by other AIB vendours. If NV were to "jeopardize" this business line, it would have a major impact on MSI's graphics business, as I believe that their OEM business is probably several times larger volume than their own-brand sales.
tamattack said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my earlier post. What I am questioning is nvidia's influence over MSI's oem contracts with companies like Dell. If nvidia said "You start producing ATI cards, and we stop selling you OEM class chips" would that jeopordize MSI's relationship with its OEM partners? I think it probably would if those OEM partners really wanted nVidia solutions, but that is not likely to be the case anymore. OEMs these days are probably atleast open to (if not asking for) ATI solutions. MSI has ati to fall back on to provide chips for oem solutions if nVidia severs their relationship. nVidia on the other hand, doesn't really have any way to get its chips into the oem market if they sever their ties with their distributers. Personally, I think that nVidia would end up hurting more than MSI if they stopped producing chips for them.
Nite_Hawk
I guess I wasn't clear either.
WRT OEM deals like Dell, AFAIK the contracts are mostly directly with Nvidia or ATI. Nvidia then contracts MSI, for example, to produce the cards. In this case, MSI has no influence over the OEM contract because it's Nvidia's OEM contract. MSI is just Nvidia's supplier in this case.
While revenues per card from such an arrangement probably aren't as good as on MSI's own OEM contracts, the volumes are large. More importantly, the volumes help to keep MSI's production facilities running at an efficient level.
Although your point may be very much valid WRT other OEM business which is contracted directly with MSI.
WRT OEM deals like Dell, AFAIK the contracts are mostly directly with Nvidia or ATI. Nvidia then contracts MSI, for example, to produce the cards. In this case, MSI has no influence over the OEM contract because it's Nvidia's OEM contract. MSI is just Nvidia's supplier in this case.
While revenues per card from such an arrangement probably aren't as good as on MSI's own OEM contracts, the volumes are large. More importantly, the volumes help to keep MSI's production facilities running at an efficient level.
Although your point may be very much valid WRT other OEM business which is contracted directly with MSI.
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