Firefox vs. Opera?

[Guden Oden]

Is there a download manager of some sort available as an extension for FF? I don't like the silly thing that comes with the browser, it manages to be even crappier than the separate transfer windows of bog-standard IE...

Oh, and how do I access the config windows of my extensions? I had a memory there was a section for that in the main settings window but now it is gone! Or perhaps never was and I just dreamed it. Anyway, I can't access the settings of extensions!

 

[silence]

Is there a download manager of some sort available as an extension for FF? I don't like the silly thing that comes with the browser, it manages to be even crappier than the separate transfer windows of bog-standard IE...

Oh, and how do I access the config windows of my extensions? I had a memory there was a section for that in the main settings window but now it is gone! Or perhaps never was and I just dreamed it. Anyway, I can't access the settings of extensions!

you even have FTP client if u need one....
and use Download Manager tweaks....it helps....

there is also extension which allows u to DL with _ANY_ of DL proggies out there.....(i think)

http://fireftp.mozdev.org/
http://dmextension.mozdev.org/
http://downloadwith.mozdev.org/

 

[Moloch]

No, in order to make it like opera, you only need mouse gestures, and session saver, perhaps a few othes, like tabbrowser preferances.
The others are just to enhance the experience.

You have obviously never used Opera seriously.

You obiviously are assuming infomation in order to make your self and your browser feel superior.
I used it for a week, and uninstalled it, forgot how many ads webpages can have, aswell as missing extentions like foxytunes- I'm usally playing music when I'm on the internet, that extention ads a little bar with controls for any media player, also bugmenot is a must have.
If opera had the pluggins FF has, then it would be better, but since you can't download pluggins to get missing features, it will never surpass FF.
Only good thing about it is the memory management.

 

[Guden Oden]

you even have FTP client if u need one....
and use Download Manager tweaks....it helps....

Thanks, I'm sure it does however now the fucking program is "protecting" me from myself. How do I turn off babysitter mode so I can download stuff without it "protecting" me?

Not even IE with XP SP2 is quite this obnoxious.

there is also extension which allows u to DL with _ANY_ of DL proggies out there.....(i think)

I've looked at a few and they all seem to either be adware or shareware. Very annoying.

Oh, and how did I access extension settings again?

 

[L233]

Thanks, I'm sure it does however now the fucking program is "protecting" me from myself. How do I turn off babysitter mode so I can download stuff without it "protecting" me?

Not even IE with XP SP2 is quite this obnoxious.

AFAIK you can not switch it off globally, you have to manually enter the URL in the options menu. Options/Web Features/Allow web sites to install software/Allow. There you have to enter the url and klick on allow again.

I assume this was done as some means of protection against malicious code. It's funny though because making the user jump through hoops just to DL extensions that aren't located on update.mozilla.com is a pretty inefficient measure to "fix" the huge gaping security hole aka "extensions".

What's even funnier is that extension can supply URLs for updates which can happen either automatically (if switched on in the options) or manually by clicking "update" in the extensions window. These updates can be located anywhere and there is no way the Mozilla devs can monitor them. So basically, there is zero guarantee that some extension developer gone rogue won't use the update mechanism to shove malicious code onto hunders of thousands of computers via automatic Firefox extension updates in a short period of time.

This issue was discussed way back and their anwser to the security concerns was a 2 second delay when instlalling extensions and some warning that you should DL extension from untrusted sites. There also seems to be some sort of certifications process which is next to useless because most of the really useful extensions are uncertified and I doubt the Firefox devs have the ressources to implement a efficient review/certification process for the myriads of extensions that are out there. It just doesn't happen, especially considering how frequently some extension are updated.

So what we have here is a browser that is suppedly big on security but offers an essential feature that is little more than a gigantic security risk.

YOu should also make it a habbit to track down the website of the extension developer and read the material there. Incombatibilities between extensions are frequent and installing one extension might break another.

I would also stay away from TBE, it's slows down FF so dramatically that even their developers tell there users to use something else - but the alternatives don't even begin approach TBE's functionally though. Functionality, I might add, which is available in Opera out of the box (except for grouped tabs).

You should also note that the more extension you install, the more bloated the whole thing becomes. Load time of first start up becomes painfully long and currently the memory footprint of FF with just one blank page opened is ~20mb vs ~15mb for Opera - and that's with less than a dozen extensions installed. I don't wanna know what it's like with 50+ extensions...

The extension settings can be accessed via the extensions window. Click on the extension and an options button will appear on the lower left side. The UI is pretty inconsisted and not particularly ergonomic, IMO.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Anything you people will or can discuss and arguements you bring about both browsers has already been addressed in this thread:
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=234839

 

[Moloch]

Thanks, I'm sure it does however now the fucking program is "protecting" me from myself. How do I turn off babysitter mode so I can download stuff without it "protecting" me?

Not even IE with XP SP2 is quite this obnoxious.

AFAIK you can not switch it off globally, you have to manually enter the URL in the options menu. Options/Web Features/Allow web sites to install software/Allow. There you have to enter the url and klick on allow again.

I assume this was done as some means of protection against malicious code. It's funny though because making the user jump through hoops just to DL extensions that aren't located on update.mozilla.com is a pretty inefficient measure to "fix" the huge gaping security hole aka "extensions".

What's even funnier is that extension can supply URLs for updates which can happen either automatically (if switched on in the options) or manually by clicking "update" in the extensions window. These updates can be located anywhere and there is no way the Mozilla devs can monitor them. So basically, there is zero guarantee that some extension developer gone rogue won't use the update mechanism to shove malicious code onto hunders of thousands of computers via automatic Firefox extension updates in a short period of time.

This issue was discussed way back and their anwser to the security concerns was a 2 second delay when instlalling extensions and some warning that you should DL extension from untrusted sites. There also seems to be some sort of certifications process which is next to useless because most of the really useful extensions are uncertified and I doubt the Firefox devs have the ressources to implement a efficient review/certification process for the myriads of extensions that are out there. It just doesn't happen, especially considering how frequently some extension are updated.

So what we have here is a browser that is suppedly big on security but offers an essential feature that is little more than a gigantic security risk.

YOu should also make it a habbit to track down the website of the extension developer and read the material there. Incombatibilities between extensions are frequent and installing one extension might break another.

I would also stay away from TBE, it's slows down FF so dramatically that even their developers tell there users to use something else - but the alternatives don't even begin approach TBE's functionally though. Functionality, I might add, which is available in Opera out of the box (except for grouped tabs).

You should also note that the more extension you install, the more bloated the whole thing becomes. Load time of first start up becomes painfully long and currently the memory footprint of FF with just one blank page opened is ~22mb vs ~16mb for Opera - and that's with less than a dozen extensions installed. I don't wanna know what it's like with 50+ extensions...

You have proven you have not seriously use firefox
When you try to install extensions from unknown sites, a little bar comes up where you can hit hit a button and add that site to the arppoved sites list.
You dont have to manually go there smarty.
Is TBE the same as tab brower pref? The one I doesn't slow down FF at all- still loads quick.
FF is currently using 60MB of memory, and I've been browsing for a few hours.
FF has memory cache(as does opera), so alot of that could be just cache, memory usage debates are utterly useless- even with a measly 512DDR, 60MB is nothing to that, it doesn't cause the system to slow down at all.
As I've repeated, tha only arguemant for memory useage is for browsing sites that have ALOT of big images, and as soon as you leave that site, it releases the memory.
Ill close FF and open it again, and browse some sites to see how the memory usage is fresh.
edit- 26MB phyiscal.
And now 50MB.
That's nothing- I have 222MB free.
I think we need to know exactly what opera and FF as sticking in the ram before arguing memory useage.

 

[Guden Oden]

So what we have here is a browser that is suppedly big on security but offers an essential feature that is little more than a gigantic security risk.

Well, I doubt it's really any worse than IE with activex. There you can do ANYTHING. Does FF extensions give write access to the filesystem for example? Activex does...

I would also stay away from TBE

TBE what? Never heard of that TLA.

currently the memory footprint of FF with just one blank page opened is ~20mb vs ~15mb for Opera

That's nothing to brag about... I surfed on my Amiga with 6MB of RAM sum total, of which one half meg was taken up by a ROM file. In the remainder I fit the OS code itself, all the utilities I used, tc-pip stack AND browser + its "improved" GUI library!

Thanks on the preferences tip by the way. Weird, there's no prefs window for the tabbed browsing extension, I have no idea what it actually does! I just grabbed it because it was supposed to enhance tabbed browsing (duh) but I still can't turn off the fact it opens a new window when I middle-click a link... Grr, that was like the ONLY thing I needed 'enhanced'. Oh well, I shouldn't complain. It IS free!

 

[Moloch]

http://secunia.com/
34 Secunia Advisories vs 6 8)
I have heard that about TBE, but I can't even see where to get it, the tab extension I use, tab browser pref, is a part of a replacement, there is a seperate extension for each feature apprarently.
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_:_Tips_:_Extensions_That_Replace_TBE

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

http://secunia.com/
34 Secunia Advisories vs 6 8)

"Opera 7.x" has been out for since 2 years and "Firefox 1.x" for 3 months. Now recount those advisories and include Phoenix and Firebird.

Edit: 4 of them aren't patched for Opera, all six all still unpatched for Firefox. ²

 

[L233]

http://secunia.com/
34 Secunia Advisories vs 6 8)

First of all, both browser are still rated the same by secunia - moderatly critical. The number of advisories says little. One big security risk can be worse than 100 smaller ones.

Anyway, the comparison is flawed. When Opera 7.x was released, FF was still pre-release (IIRC version 0.5x). Opera 7 was released in early 2003, FF 1.0 end of 2004! So that's about 2 years more for bugs to accumulate. There are 19 security advisories for FF 0.x btw.

What's probably more interesting:

FIREFOX: "Currently, 5 out of 6 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

OPERA: "Currently, 4 out of 34 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

Opera wins.

I have heard that about TBE, but I can't even see where to get it, the tab extension I use, tab browser pref, is a part of a replacement, there is a seperate extension for each feature apprarently.
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_:_Tips_:_Extensions_That_Replace_TBE

The reson why you can't get TBE anywhere except on the devs page in Japan is because this extensions is strongly unrecommended by the Mozilla team as well as the Firefox team.

The be fair, the TBE developer is pretty straight forward about this and even provides the relevant quotes on his website.

Some of the quotes:
"TBE overwrites system files with its own. That's bad by any standard. But don't let us stop you from using whatever extensions you like. We're just not all that sympathetic when people's browsers break after installing things that do this. It's basically like installing a program that overwrites various DLLs in Windows\System with its own and promptly breaks other apps. If you use TBE you do so at your own risk - only use it with builds that TBE claims to support. Otherwise, you're asking for pain. "

TBE does some terrible things including replacing core browser files, and the Firebird dev team does not recommend using it unless you are prepared to have your browser break every few days.

A lot, and I mean A LOT of bugs that are filed on bugzilla and new threads started on mozillazine are a result of this extension.


This also cleary demonstrates the problem with the whole extensions approach. They aren't really controllable.

Why is TBE so relevant? It's relevant because it is probably the most useful extension there is. It completely revamps Firefox's fucked up tab system and makes it closer to something that resembles MDI (Multi Document Interface). It makes FF's tabbed browsing bearable and offers functionality comparable to Opera's clean and powerful MDI.

What even TBE cannot do is making Firefox's SDI with tacked on tabs a true MDI interface. This is why Opera's interface will always be cleaner and faster, unless Firefox gets completely revamped and offers MDI functionality instead of "SDI with tabs" that have to be patched to death with 10+ extensions just to provide a resemblence of true MDI functionality.

Btw. TBP as well as MiniT (just two of the TBE "replacement" extensions) each break several other extensions.

Sorry, but I simply don't see how this whole extension thing is viable in the long run. It's nice for some "extra" functionality but the problem really is that Firefox needs extensions for core functionality - basic stuff like tab handling and such. What Firefox offers without extensions simply doesn't cut it. Extensions are fine for stuff like adblocker, mouse gestures etc. but when the unmodified browser is as poor as Firefox is you get into extension hell just by trying to add some very basic functionality.

 

[thegrommit]

Asshole attitudes aside, it's good to see the solid alternatives to IE garnering strong support 8)

 

[Moloch]

http://secunia.com/
34 Secunia Advisories vs 6 8)

First of all, both browser are still rated the same by secunia - moderatly critical. The number of advisories says little. One big security risk can be worse than 100 smaller ones.

Anyway, the comparison is flawed. When Opera 7.x was released, FF was still pre-release (IIRC version 0.5x). Opera 7 was released in early 2003, FF 1.0 end of 2004! So that's about 2 years more for bugs to accumulate. There are 19 security advisories for FF 0.x btw.

What's probably more interesting:

FIREFOX: "Currently, 5 out of 6 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

OPERA: "Currently, 4 out of 34 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

Opera wins.

I have heard that about TBE, but I can't even see where to get it, the tab extension I use, tab browser pref, is a part of a replacement, there is a seperate extension for each feature apprarently.
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firefox_:_Tips_:_Extensions_That_Replace_TBE

The reson why you can't get TBE anywhere except on the devs page in Japan is because this extensions is strongly unrecommended by the Mozilla team as well as the Firefox team.

The be fair, the TBE developer is pretty straight forward about this and even provides the relevant quotes on his website.

Some of the quotes:
"TBE overwrites system files with its own. That's bad by any standard. But don't let us stop you from using whatever extensions you like. We're just not all that sympathetic when people's browsers break after installing things that do this. It's basically like installing a program that overwrites various DLLs in Windows\System with its own and promptly breaks other apps. If you use TBE you do so at your own risk - only use it with builds that TBE claims to support. Otherwise, you're asking for pain. "

TBE does some terrible things including replacing core browser files, and the Firebird dev team does not recommend using it unless you are prepared to have your browser break every few days.

A lot, and I mean A LOT of bugs that are filed on bugzilla and new threads started on mozillazine are a result of this extension.


This also cleary demonstrates the problem with the whole extensions approach. They aren't really controllable.

Why is TBE so relevant? It's relevant because it is probably the most useful extension there is. It completely revamps Firefox's fucked up tab system and makes it closer to something that resembles MDI (Multi Document Interface). It makes FF's tabbed browsing bearable and offers functionality comparable to Opera's clean and powerful MDI.

What even TBE cannot do is making Firefox's SDI with tacked on tabs a true MDI interface. This is why Opera's interface will always be cleaner and faster, unless Firefox gets completely revamped and offers MDI functionality instead of "SDI with tabs" that have to be patched to death with 10+ extensions just to provide a resemblence of true MDI functionality.

Btw. TBP as well as MiniT (just two of the TBE "replacement" extensions) each break several other extensions.

Sorry, but I simply don't see how this whole extension thing is viable in the long run. It's nice for some "extra" functionality but the problem really is that Firefox needs extensions for core functionality - basic stuff like tab handling and such. What Firefox offers without extensions simply doesn't cut it. Extensions are fine for stuff like adblocker, mouse gestures etc. but when the unmodified browser is as poor as Firefox is you get into extension hell just by trying to add some very basic functionality.

? It says Opera 7.X, what's the problem?
That shows the CURRENT security issues, and FF wins, I dont care if came out in november, that doesn't change the fact it has more out, and There are more yellow(and one orange) and even a red rating for opera, where as one FF vulnerabilitys is yellow.
I like TBP fine, works fine for my use, what does opera have that makes it better?

 

[L233]

That shows the CURRENT security issues

No, it doesn't. Learn to read, for fucks sake.

Again:

FIREFOX: "Currently, 5 out of 6 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

OPERA: "Currently, 4 out of 34 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

To spell it out for you really slowly:
OPERA has 4 open security issues, FIREFOX has 5.

Got it?

I like TBP fine, works fine for my use, what does opera have that makes it better?

A true MDI interface? You know, kinda like not opening a new browser instance when you have a pop-up window? Or how about being able to drag and drop tabs (to rearrange them). And what's the point of having a tabbed browser which doesn't allow me to compare documents side-by-side? I could go on and on...

TBE is a buggy POS and TBP doesn't even provide 10% of its functionality.

 

[Clashman]

Asshole attitudes aside, it's good to see the solid alternatives to IE garnering strong support 8)

Which makes me wonder though, just who in the hell is voting for IE here!?!

Where be 'ye closeted IE lovers?

 

[L233]

Which makes me wonder though, just who in the hell is voting for IE here!?!

Where be 'ye closeted IE lovers?

Security concerns aside, IE is actually a whole hell of a lot more usable than Firefox if you use a front-end like Avant or MyIE2.

 

[Moloch]

That shows the CURRENT security issues

No, it doesn't. Learn to read, for fucks sake.

Again:

FIREFOX: "Currently, 5 out of 6 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

OPERA: "Currently, 4 out of 34 Secunia advisories, is marked as "Unpatched" in the Secunia database."

To spell it out for you really slowly:
OPERA has 4 open security issues, FIREFOX has 5.

Got it?

I like TBP fine, works fine for my use, what does opera have that makes it better?

A true MDI interface? You know, kinda like not opening a new browser instance when you have a pop-up window? Or how about being able to drag and drop tabs (to rearrange them). And what's the point of having a tabbed browser which doesn't allow me to compare documents side-by-side? I could go on and on...

TBE is a buggy POS and TBP doesn't even provide 10% of its functionality.

Well what do you know, you're right for once, but 3 out of 4 and marked as yellow, and 1 out of 5 is marked as yellow for FF, as opposed to green.
I dont have any popup windows sir, what is a popup? I haven't gotton one of those in a long time, besides those lame ones that open a tiny instance(not window) on the page.
How does FF not allow to compare them side by side, like when comparing screen shots, I open the 2(or more) in seperate tabs, then switch them by clicking on them? How is that on comparing them side by side?
Just to see wtf you're talking about, im installing opera 8 b1.

 

[Althornin]

I think the Opera uses have a massive inferiority complex, and thier attitudes towards every other browser, and especially FF/Moz are supremely annoying.

It really reminds me of mac users. Sooooo fanatical, they MUST justify their purchase of a program. Oh no, it can't be that firefox is a better choice for some people, or that with extensions it offers more features. No, NEVER! All others must SUCK. And those people who stopped using IE but didnt switch to Opera are somehow the worst of the bunch - they aren't paying and they have asomething they like, that they think is better than what I am paying for! Oh no, I must defend my program purchases for some irrational reason! I could never admit that there are benefits to each browser! Never admit that in some areas, FF has opera beat! NEVER! I WILL DEFEND TO THE LAST!

Go and circle your wagons elsewhere, please.

 

[Althornin]

Security concerns aside, IE is actually a whole hell of a lot more usable than Firefox if you use a front-end like Avant or MyIE2.

what opera loving fannish horseshit.
That's right, because Firefox is totally un-useable, which is why more people use it than Opera - It must not work at all for them!

I mean, at least make an effort not to be a giant fan whore, ok? Bias is NOT a good thing.

And the constant claims of "oh, if you don't like Opera, you must not have used it"...What crap. It IS possible that others either
1) Don't share your tastes
2) Have different priorities, so that FF works better for them
3) Find it supremely objectionable to have to pay for something, and thus use what they might consider to be a slightly less browser for free.

I mean, be fucking reasonable.

 

[Moloch]

I think the Opera uses have a massive inferiority complex, and thier attitudes towards every other browser, and especially FF/Moz are supremely annoying.

It really reminds me of mac users. Sooooo fanatical, they MUST justify their purchase of a program. Oh no, it can't be that firefox is a better choice for some people, or that with extensions it offers more features. No, NEVER! All others must SUCK. And those people who stopped using IE but didnt switch to Opera are somehow the worst of the bunch - they aren't paying and they have asomething they like, that they think is better than what I am paying for! Oh no, I must defend my program purchases for some irrational reason! I could never admit that there are benefits to each browser! Never admit that in some areas, FF has opera beat! NEVER! I WILL DEFEND TO THE LAST!

Go and circle your wagons elsewhere, please.

I'm just trying to see what all the fuss he's making is about.
I've uses opera, and while it did have more built in funtionality, it didn't have the functionality I can get by downloading a small extension.
Ok- I went to hardocp.com in opera, and it was using 33MB(for the sake of the memory argument), I went to the same site in FF, and it was using 24MB, not to mention with my uber adblock filter, that filthy bastard who runs the site won't be getting a dime from me.